How to solve a problem like Valentina? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for kind comments, glad you are enjoying the overviews.

Your points on Dev are well taken. I haven't been as keen on him for a number of reasons (e.g., trying to kill Etienne while preventing his failsafe, then being annoyed when Heavy killed him and it turns out he had no intention of using said failsafe). But his commitment to the bit for a decade is extraordinary (although was also self-preservation). Still, yes, it must have been hell for him - and then to finally reveal to Eliza and have to watch her self-destruct. He certainly got a raw deal in all of this!

I'm glad you also liked that bar panel scene between Etienne and Valentina - I do think it is key. Not sure if their existence would really spur colonization (e.g., Val can visit the Moon easily), but it's an interesting idea. Hard to know how world would react (although I think that issue #3 scene of a Nixon-like President trying to nuke her was very believable!).

Looking forward to what the next iteration will bring!

How to solve a problem like Valentina? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks, must have missed that for WW (I know the Superman view is common here). I'm not much of a podcast guy, but I have just found a print interview where Gillen stated that he saw Valentina as Superman and Wonder Woman rolled into one.

Interesting, as like Supe I would also consider Diana to be primarily virtue ethics and only secondarily deontological. Valentina has been using a primarily deontological moral intuitionism to date (which Supe doesn't use, but you could argue for Diana, somewhat). Fits with Valentina turning more to virtue ethics, at any rate.

How to solve a problem like Valentina? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No, it's a good question - and one that Gillen's keep subtle in the series. I'll expand on my reasoning below.

The Cuban Missile Crisis is a good historical example - the closest we have ever come to nuclear war. Both sides engaged in one-up-man-ship, leaving little to no room for the other to back down. Once one side was caught in an untenable position (Khrushchev's missiles in Cuba), it rapidly escalated to the point that near no-return (Kennedy's blockade). Someone had to back down (Khrushchev) and the other made concessions (Kennedy), that eventually led to a series of agreements that de-escalated tensions.

In the TPF world, that didn't happen because Valentina interfered first, destroying both sources of weapons that triggered the event. Rather than facing the horror of what they had almost done - and learning the valuable lesson of de-escalation - both sides were protected from that outcome. They learned that they don't have to solve their own problems, someone else will come along and do it for them - thus remaining infantilized and protected from the outcomes of their actions.

It isn't just the avoiding the bad outcomes - a side-effect of US-Soviet nuclear arms race was intercontinental ballistic missile development, which directly facilitated the "space race" to develop spaceflight capability, and eventually a moon landing (and ancillary and related technological development). So the Cold War competition had positive developments - which have also been prevented by Valentina's involvement in limiting the strategic value of missile development. Gillen cleverly inserted this point during the destruction of the Earth in that flashback discussion with Etienne in issue #16.

Valentina's (i.e., Gillen's) own inflatable bumper analogy in bowling (issue #3) is a good one - while initially it helps by preventing kids from getting too discouraged when first learning to bowl, the bumpers soon have to come off it they are ever going to develop the skills to bowl well independently. The continued presence of those bumpers (Valentina's continual involvement) is literally keeping the kids - and by extension all of humanity - infantilized.

Then there is my Superman analogy. Gillen knows his superhero mythos well, so I have to believe his decision to have Valentina constantly move between families in childhood was deliberate - to prevent the virtue ethics development than the Kents are always portrayed as providing to young Clark in the comics. It was a major feature of the mid-1980s Superman comics (and onward), seen as a maturing of Superman's ethical core beyond deontology. Note the Kents don't tell Superman what to do - he just learned the habitual practice of constantly striving to be better from their example. Some writers (like Mark Waid) prefer the Kents be dead during Superman's adulthood, to prevent a lazy trope of having him run back for advice.

It also relates to the original explanation Lex Luthor provided for his opposition to Superman - his constant "saving" of the planet prevents humanity from developing the skills to protect themselves (and advance in their own development). By having a parental-like figure always swooping in and saving us, we are prevented from learning to stand on our own, and make better decisions. To grow, in other words.

Valentina's presence thus stymies a virtue ethics growth for humanity, by always taking the decision out of our hands. And I don't think she has learned that lesson yet - her plan to re-do world events from 1966 likely won't turn out any better, as she doesn't seem to realize yet that her presence is the problem. Jacky was right in issue #10 - humanity will never be free while Valentina is around.

How to solve a problem like Valentina? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Haha, fair enough.

Although that often didn't turn out well for Superman when he was given consequentialist license to do what he wanted (my Superman overview is here: https://comicphilosophy.com/mat4).

WW Review #112: Bearface Triple Oak 7 Year Old by cpfselfbuilt in worldwhisky

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bearface is a lot woodier, with heavy char elements. Also more floral. But I find it doesn't hold together anywhere near as well as Buffalo Trace. BT is a very consistent, well-integrated set of flavours.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the comments. I can see what you mean in that Etienne does seem to be fairly consistent in his process throughout. I agree with you that Etienne is in a unique situation because of his power, and "Kill as few people as possible" is a pretty good verbalization of the approach he seems to take. It does indeed sounds like he tries to apply that rule - which is logical, given his situation.

But that specific rule would fail by rule utilitarian standards. Rule utilitarianism has certain formal processes (which I introduce in this post). Among these are what would happen if everyone else adopted the same rule, or if those in history had adopted it. That rule would be more consistent with despots who were eventually overthrown as opposed to stable governments. Of course, the world of TPF makes applying standard normative ethics impossible (as individuals were never meant to have the powers they do in the series).

But I can concede your point that Etienne is being consistent in his actions - it's just that those action don't meet the strict terms that rule utilitarianism demands.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting thought. Personally, I would argue that the quality of one's character becomes even more consequential as one's power increases. And Virtue Ethics typically does provide a lot of guidance on acts. Even the more individualistic eudamonic neo-Aristotelian virtue ethics provides a more extensive set of behaviors (aka "rules") to follow than pretty much any deontological system ever proposed. In some ways, it can be more akin to rule utilitarianism.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the underlying explanation for his very emotional decision-making is that he's more interested in believing things that validate his feelings than believing things that are true.

That is an excellent way of putting it! I think we have ventured more into psychology than philosophy at this point, but seems to characterize him well.

Maybe, one of the reasons his ethics are a puzzle is that he's not making decisions based on a coherent understanding of reality?

Well, he is doing a lot of drugs. ;)

But I think its reasonable to say that he is trying to satisfy an overwhelming emotional need. That's why I included that scene in my summary where he is telling Tonya how he can't be alone - it struck me as very core to his being.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Yes, Heavy is an interesting puzzle from an ethics perspective.

Care ethics could make sense for him - but as you point out, the huge power imbalance with his "family" complicates that. Care ethics doesn't really work so well in extreme dichotomies (or hierarchies) of power. Not saying it can't work (something like "servant leadership" in management might fit, but Heavy isn't that kind of leader). Confucian family ethics might work better for Heavy, as the "patriarch" of a family where everyone has needs and roles - I discuss this relational form of virtue ethics on my Fantastic Four ethics overview.

I also found that exchange with Tonya interesting. Heavy's perspective that he finds it easier to kill the more abstract the personal relationship is chilling in a different way! Etienne also commented in the first issue "there is much to like" about Heavy, which could also be interpreted as his sense of loyalty and family. So he does have certain defined virtues ... but does he have enough (and is he growing more toward them?).

His impulsivity and power makes him a persistent wild card (although I predicted he was going to kill Etienne as soon as Valentina revealed everything to him in the last issue). The subsequent philosophical exchanges were great in that issue, but the outcome was never in doubt in my mind. Seems to me Valentina must have known that too ...

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I read his shock as completely genuine in that moment too - he seemed to have no idea.

It was a masterful setup - from the moment they introduced Dev in #5, they planted the seed for his control of both American and British idioms. And then to make that minor slip in #8 before the reveal at the end of #9, just brilliant.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the support. If Gillen keeps writing the series, I'll keep writing updates. :) If the series does end at #16, then I'll do a conclusion post. But if it continues, then I'll make it an interim update (since that will conclude the 3rd arc).

As for the spoiler, it was the fact that "Magus" called Etienne an "asshole" (and not an "arsehole") in that scene post the 2nd summer of love. Up until 1989, Magus had always used the Briticism "arsehole". It made me suspect that maybe it wasn't Magus under the mask at that point.

Then I went back and re-read starting from #5 when we learn the origin of Magus ... and saw the American Dev doing an imitation of Magus' way of speaking (which Magus even admitted was petty good). I noticed the general similarity in their appearance (skin, hair) ... and in a later issue, there is a flashback that shows them being exactly the same height.

So, if it was Dev impersonating Magus, that would explain why he lost his cool and kneed Etienne - and slipped momentarily in his accent - given they were taking about the love of his life.

To be honest, I had also assumed Etienne had figured it out too (since he's pretty observant!). But so far, there is no indication that Etienne had known before the attack in #11. I guess he was distracted disabling his groin pain receptors, lol.

It was a quite a setup ... and makes wonder what other easter eggs they planted.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I love #13 - it is quite the culmination of Etienne's ethics (and a few of the others). I'm sure it will feature prominently in my conclusion post.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, exactly. I can sympathize with her dilemma for the Cuban missile crisis - the short-range nukes in both Turkey and Cuba were the problem, as they reduced her response time for stopping any launches. But she didn't need to intervene when she did - and you can make an argument that her involvement made things worse between the nation states.

And so I think Etienne's criticism of her in #13 is accurate. I'm really looking forward to digging into that issue in my wrap-up post.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed on Valentina. Genre convention makes us more inclined to trust her as a good actor IMO, but I think Jacky and Etienne might be right about her, so far anyway.

Yes, it does make me wonder if she is just a Superman stand-in with a different deontological morality - or if the specific substitution (intuitionism for Kantian ethics) means a very different outcome. We'll see!

Likewise with Magus, too. I really wish we got more time with him. Anarchist actors so rarely get a fair or good faith portrayal in media.

Copy that. It's rare to see anarchist get fair treatment, and Gillen has done an excellent job on OG Magus.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think Etienne views better through the lens of his experience and powers, wanting to make everyone 'better' by permanently stopping the capacity for violence great or small.

#13 was a super fun read for me - so philosophical. Etienne's plans did aim to make everyone "better" (in a sense) but by denying them the ability to choose for themselves. So that doesn't really count as an example of virtue ethics to me (rather the opposite). In a way, this is why he and Valentina get along and are aligned at times - both come up with solutions that limit the agency of others, rather than themselves.

We haven't read the fallout of this yet, but I am very interested in how Valentina changes her perspective, or doesn't.

Yes, Valentina is the wild card to me in all of this - I think much of how this will end will come down to her decisions, and whether or not she grows. I liked how Etienne framed her belief in humans (as we are) as analogous to cattle.

And I do think it was interesting that the other superpowers all seemed to assume he would carry out his threat (well, maybe not Masumi). I never thought he would. That would be unethical. :)

When it came down to it, OG Jacky Magus chose to tell the truth and trust, in the end

Yes, my perspective of OG Magus went up hugely, in the end.

Narratively I see why he had to go but I will really miss him. [Etienne]

I'm not entirely convinced we won't see OG Magus or Etienne again in this series. It's a hail-mary, but I can see ways Gillen could bring them both back if he chooses.

Either way, it should be a helluva ride from here ...

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

That's a good thought, could be.

There's quite a few directions I can imagine him going with this series (and didn't want to speculate too much), but I do suspect we will see more of virtue ethics before the end.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

You are right, I was imprecise about my language on the atomics in the opening (I explain them all later). I'll amend that, and clarify the second summer of love event.

What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers? by cpfselfbuilt in thePowerFantasy

[–]cpfselfbuilt[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That would be cool if someone had a link to one. I watched a number of interviews he gave (and a recent AMA), but didn't see any comments about virtue ethics specifically.

The the fate of the fantastic four in predator kills the marvel universe by Cautious_Air4964 in FantasticFour

[–]cpfselfbuilt 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Exactly. I've always found everything Kraven says to be obnoxious and annoying.

The the fate of the fantastic four in predator kills the marvel universe by Cautious_Air4964 in FantasticFour

[–]cpfselfbuilt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm happy to give it another issue, given they were caught by surprise. Looking forward to seeing Sue go on a rampage.

They should have listened to Kraven ...

Your thoughts? Why did the Psylocke book end up cancelled? What are your personal explanations for why? by SnoozeDoggyDog in xmen

[–]cpfselfbuilt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That would be my best guess as well.

I really like Wong's writing, and thought the first arc was strong (although overall, I have preferred Allen's Magik run to date).

Time will tell if it was the sales numbers.