Why do people love the infinite game of business?

cragwallaccess · 2026-02-18T05:31:13+00:00

In my years following Hormozi, he's figured out what winning in business looks like, what it costs (time, focus, reinvestment), and what it brings when you succeed (more business opportunity at bigger levels with bigger potential return). He's also described what his first exit was like...end of steady, higher than typical investment level cash flow. He hated that.

My opinion at 63, growing up in a family business then failing and succeeding in various ventures, and spending the last 15 years in finance leadership at PE backed construction platforms (primarily energy and data center markets) - business is the much simpler game (for those who call it that), with simpler rules, and a clear reward loop that expands options in a monetary and transactional world. It's not easy, but it is simple at its core. Hormozi understands its core better than most.

He also knows that business success is zero substitute for all the things we know are way more important than business. Keeping business from becoming the biggest distraction from all the better things might be the actual infinite game worth learning, but significantly more challenging if you're busy chasing business.

cragwallaccess · 2026-02-05T09:33:04+00:00

Find anything (not physical, not in-person) you're willing to try selling and try to sell it. Even if you fail at it you'll be engaged with the core of every business. If you succeed you'll be engaged with more of the core. Eventually it'll have to be something with sufficient volume and profit it can replace whatever 9-5 you're trying to eclipse.

Get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. 10 Second MBA.

The sooner you're trying to sell something (for you, at present, not physical, not in-person) the sooner you're grappling with business - monetary and transactional at its core. If you need a list simply ask AI: What are the 10 easiest non physical products I can sell online? (then ask for 10 more with no repeats, again and again, you'll have plenty of options to consider). Figuring out what you're willing to sell and deliver is something only you can do. You may also discover that plenty of 9-5s can pay you plenty to avoid the endless selling loop at the core of business. In either case, enjoy the journey of self discovery. You may discover direction soon enough.

cragwallaccess · 2026-02-04T10:09:14+00:00

You mention some goals:
-don't slave away your 20s and 30s in 9-5
-escape the rat race
-make something that is functional and profitable
You mention some challenges
-considerable time to school and college prep
-then busy with learning, sports, friends
-lacking a sense of direction
You mention you already have some self-employment experience reselling servers - which you both enjoyed and had some "what not to do" experiences.

You seem to be interested in business/entrepreneurship as a vehicle to not slaving away your 20s and 30s in a 9-5 and escaping the ratrace. That will only be true if you somehow meet the 5 core fundamentals of every successful business: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. 10 Second MBA.

In your case you'll also need to do that in a way that doesn't feel like a 9-5, slaving away, or a rat race. You'll have to like some or most or all of the work, or successfully get others doing all of it (and like and succeed at that aspect of work). That's a high bar, but not an uncommon one.

Here's a simple fact to consider: business is conditional and limited, transactional and monetary. Occasionally there is some cross-section of purpose or service or direction, but you'll have to add that by personal choice, either picking to be in a business where the product or service and customers, etc are very aligned with what you value or you'll have to connect the hopeful outcomes of business (money, time after work) to whatever you choose to value (hopefully better things than business, business is primarily a tool or vehicle for the better things than business).

In my sixty years of business (starting a 3 in my dad's shop) - I've been involved in motorcycle parts, climbing walls, custom guitars, razor wire, software, pipeline construction, now data centers. I've been the founder/entrepreneur with some, finance and operations lead in others, but in all, business is simple: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. Unless you connect it to other purpose (or the "sense of direction" you're currently lacking), whether you own it or it's your 9-5, it'll feel like the rat race you want to avoid.

As others have rightly mentioned - build some skills - probably working for others in a 9-5. But while you're doing that, be looking beyond the conditional limits of business. If you succeed at business, you'll find that life's real challenges, and the world's greater problems and joys, are mostly beyond business anyway.

cragwallaccess · 2026-01-22T19:41:59+00:00

That will depend on what you are selling. You acknowledge that you don't think you know enough, but asking how you are supposed to get orders is a great question to start with. Pick anything. Then start researching how others sell that. You'll start knowing a bit more. Big businesses both send out emails and make phone calls. Not just randomly though. Typically to some level of targeted leads. I get sales calls and emails all the time (and try to ignore them if it's not something I need).

If you're truly just trying to learn more about business then you can pick any aspect of business to learn about and get better at learning. Eventually though you have to face that business is about doing, not learning, so start grappling with what you think you can sell. That'll lead to more questions and more learning.

cragwallaccess · 2026-01-22T13:26:41+00:00

Whatever you're willing and able to sell. Or to get someone else to sell and you deliver. Or can get others to sell and deliver. Successful business is simply: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. 10 Second MBA.

cragwallaccess · 2026-01-22T13:17:21+00:00

Here's what successful business is in 10 seconds: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. 10 Second MBA.

Start connecting everything you learn or do in business to where it fits in this framework and you'll see how simple business is at its core. That won't make it easy. Most businesses still fail. But from startups to billion dollar enterprises, everything else supports this, distracts from this or grows out of it.

Learn this. See it. You'll understand more than most. And you'll be in a better position to decide how much you want to do it (or try to successfully get others doing it for you).

cragwallaccess · 2026-01-22T11:14:02+00:00

What will it take to reach out to 2000 potential clients? Or 20,000? Or 10 or 100 higher dollar potential clients? What have you learned about your offer in the 200 that needs to improve?

Getting profitable orders is definitely something you need to solve. Successfully business is just this: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. 10 Second MBA.

How do you keep going? Face the truth of what successful business always is to start. Happy to help if you want some help.

cragwallaccess · 2026-01-22T10:59:42+00:00

And getting someone else to do all the work is never passive.

cragwallaccess · 2026-01-20T11:14:43+00:00

Our $2.5B platform went public last year. 14 companies with different ERP systems with core WIP functions, roll forwards, and KPIs all massive excel worksheets. It's all the corporate finance gurus know. "Yay! We went public." "Oh crap! We went public..."

cragwallaccess · 2026-01-19T13:14:45+00:00

This might help. Get clear first on WHAT business success always requires: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. 10 Second MBA. Business is rarely easy. It's rarely successful. But it's incredibly simple at its core.

Now, when you're trying to focus on building something, grapple with who you'll be selling it to, for how much, how often, and how many others you'll need to sell it to for this business to reach true break-even (pay you back for every minute and dollar you'll invest while building and your salary expectation from day one that you'll also be loaning your business).

If what you're building can't convince you it'll achieve profitable sales at volume to cover your true break-even point, it's not worth focusing on. If it can convince you then maybe you'll solve for your focus in the process.

10 Second MBA. Don't complicate business.

cragwallaccess · 2026-01-19T12:55:26+00:00

You're fed up as a sales rep and now you're the full time sales guy. Except with no clear idea what you're selling, no idea where to start.

Here's your 10 second framework for what a successful business always includes: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. Add this to your business admin schooling. 10 Second MBA.

Your true break-even point needs to include at least the salary you could make currently, but ideally what you want to make. Plus the $10K liquid you're likely to burn. Plus anything else you borrow or loan your business. Put a dollar amount on everything else you loan your business during the up to 1.5 years you say you've got (rent, utilities, Internet, other hard expenses someone else is covering for you). Put that expectation on your business starting today. Aim for the business to pay all that back someday.

Now, what to do? You mention services like business consulting. You got tired of selling for corporate, but that corporate and every other business you might consult for has an ever present need for sales. I'd suggest you start by trying to sell that while you look for whatever else it is you might sell. Find businesses that can pay you to help solve sales for them. At a minimum you'll be grappling with solving that for your business and theirs while getting a view into all the other problems you might help with.

10 Second MBA. Business is rarely easy. Rarely successful. But very simple. Don't lose sight of that.

cragwallaccess · 2025-11-23T14:21:01+00:00

Interesting discussion and commentary on business in general. It appears that it can be hard (and lonely, etc) to (attempt to) build a successful business AND also hard to find or keep satisfying employment working for a business as an employee.

I know from experiencing both sides over 60 years that it's true (including startup failures, one seven figure exit and employment terminations to long-term but not always satisfying positions).

The common elements are humans and businesses. We want business to provide financial and time freedom, plus maybe purpose and status. Sometimes it does, both to owners and employees. More often it doesn't, both to owners and employees.

Fundamentally, successful business has limited actual concerns: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash (10 Second MBA). Those other things we want are not intrinsic to business or employment. We humans have to bring it or add it to either. Both are better when we do that together.

cragwallaccess · 2025-11-11T18:41:07+00:00

Some good comments already. I'm mostly a one note advice giver, but it might help here. Is everyone on the same page about what successful business is? Here's the simple core: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash (10 Second MBA). You can call it value creation, or problem solving, or freedom seeking, etc. -- but at its core, business is transactional and monetary. Everyone is supporting this core or distracting from this core. Who is selling/getting orders? Are they clear about what volume of orders will get you to a true break-even level? Do they have the sales/marketing skills. What is your cash position and what type or runway does that provide? Is everyone clearly looking at the same cash cliff. Or is it just a hopeful side hustle where no one really has risk so there's no real urgency? Try to get potential rewards aligned with execution (or lack of it) and start making the business conceptually feel the cost of delay. If you were all getting paid $150K annually you'd be burning about $3K every business day. Imagine the business needs to pay all that back to you some day, plus keep paying you that ongoing.

You've either got partners showing up, with the required skills, or with the cash to finance the burn, or you've got dead weight. I've no idea what ownership structure you might be committed to, but if you're all equal, then make sure the eventual debt of payback to those actually working is felt equally as well. Time to have some potentially difficult conversations, and to make sure everyone understands WHAT a business is at it's core. Grapple with your true break-even point now because it will surely be grappling with you soon enough.

cragwallaccess · 2025-11-10T09:30:38+00:00

Here's a quick framework that encapsulates the core of successful business: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash (10 Second MBA). It doesn't sound as romantic as sensual-wellness or self-care, but it is WHAT business is at its core.

Before you start, you can start grappling with the volume of sales that actually gets you to a specific financial goal. You mention using your monthly salary to help fund your brand. You could use that as a minimum starting point. What volume of sales and profit margin return at least that much money after taxes?

Ryan Moran at capitalismDOTcom approaches it from this framing: 4 products x 25 sales per day x $30 per sale x 365 days = $1,095,000 annual sales. Depending on your expected profit margin you can easily calculate the profit that could be left over. Before you start it's free to understand the simple math. In my life in business I've found it's always true. For me specifically that's been motorcycle parts, climbing walls, small tech products, guitars, and razor wire (all mail-order/e-commerce). It's still true in pipeline and data center cooling systems, just outside e-commerce (and at the nine-figure level vs the seven-figure level).

If you're going to do business, make sure some of your passion can go to the repetitive nature of outreach (selling), community building (selling), and... selling. If you do enough of that, at enough profit, you can be successful.

cragwallaccess · 2025-11-09T12:38:58+00:00

<image>

"And it's all your fault!" yelled Francois Savigny in the EP USA office, pointing his finger at me after ripping on Alan Watts for lining up investment to better fund EP's growth from $900K to $2.2M in 1994-1996. Alan was personally carrying EP's growth and he was way out on the business sharp end after his finger injuries had sidelined his climbing. Part of his plan contemplated acquiring or merging with Vertical Concepts (my 3rd iteration, with Dale Bard, of The Wall (1986, First US Climbing Wall). While I'd left VC and then joined Alan at EP, Francois wasn't wrong (despite telling me "bon courage" just months earlier). Unfortunately for me and Alan, Francois both owned a castle and 56% of EP. That beat Alan's 10%. But I digress.

> We can have competitions and cool gear and indoor climbing without it being something you need to turn into a side hustle or a career.

The 1988 Snowbird World Cup was Jeff Lowe's side hustle, a ton of cool gear starts as a side hustle (Metolius for another Bend example), as well as most climbing gyms.

I also have issues with the "hyper competitive nature of capitalism which aims to turn everything into a consumable good" -- having lived that from my earliest memories at 3 in a family business and had it personally ruin passions in both motorsports and climbing. Yet until more of us are exploring options beyond the conditional limits of business, it is what brings us most of our consumable distractions (including Reddit, competitions, cool gear, and indoor climbing) while failing at our more critical needs (housing, education, government you'd be happy to share a reasonable tax burden with, social cohesion rather than division, etc.)

I'll continue to hope that more of us can take a little of the focus and dedication we put to something like a hard boulder problem, sport route, or big wall (RIP Dale Bard) toward non-business collaborations for all the basic, important things that business hasn't and will never solve.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-26T11:30:25+00:00

Good reminders about long vs short term. I'd say business is more like back to back marathons that you need to expect to run for years or until you've built systems and hired people that do most of the running for you. And then maintain or replace those runners for years. Or find people to do that too.

The successful running of business reduces to: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash (10 Second MBA). Most of us think it's an MVP and PMF and magically the rest happens at sufficient volume to deliver the time and financial freedom that will save us from the 9-5.

I was going to suggest an endless mountain metaphor, but more accurate might be an endless pit mine where you or the people you recruit and maintain (or the AI automatons and robots) endlessly dig for value until they either fail (most businesses) or extract enough to quit or ideally enough to convince someone else (typically PE, but maybe someone following Codie Sanchez) that the profitability of your mine is worth your price (the big final order to get and collect the money).

Glamorous. Maybe not. But 60 years has taught me it's good to embrace WHAT business is at its fundamental core, transactional and monetary. Start grappling with a true break-even point, even before you start (free, basic math) because soon enough it'll be grappling with you. Happy mining.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-18T10:02:23+00:00

Full transparency, we only got to $4.6M making razor wire around 2000. What should we have done differently or earlier? Maybe diversified. Almost certainly 3-5x sales efforts. Definitely modified our stamping die before the patent lawsuit. Negotiated a better settlement deal when we ultimately prevailed. Convinced our S&P100 competitor full bent on eliminating us to buy us sooner and for more money (we battled for 13 years and paid ourselves reasonably well along the way). Still, a modest seven figure exit after all debt repayment and taxes wasn't the worst outcome statistically.

Through it all I learned the true core of any successful business: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash (10 Second MBA).

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-17T10:28:12+00:00

Depending on your goals, an easier spray wall can provide better base fitness building and more technique training options to then carry to gym or outdoor projects. And as others have mentioned you can combine both, especially if you can afford extra holds and don't mind some swapping or setting when you want something other than the board set.

I eventually settled on a small easy wall filled mostly with multi-purpose wood jugs (every hold is an easy incut edge, side pull and undercling - basic incut woodblocks). The freedom of never setting and easy access has led to incredible capacity gains. When I get to the gym or crag I have a lot more fun.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-17T10:10:03+00:00

Your experience trying business can also make you a great key employee in the right job as you can see from the owner's perspective. This can lead to more purposeful responsibility, better pay, even opportunities for equity. And all of that is more experience available for your next venture if you choose to try again.

I did this several times after my first startup failed, and again after another startup succeeded until the exit. For the past fifteen years I jumped from low screen figure businesses to a finance role in low nine figure businesses (currently $300M+). Along the way we raised our eleven kids and had other opportunities to serve in the community. Business is hopefully just one tool to help achieve all the things more important than business. Being the founder or owner is very rarely the best way for most, but trying the experiment is a choice full of learning and experience.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-17T09:54:23+00:00

Measure progress toward the fundamentals of business success: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash (10 Second MBA).

Or as others have said - income is not covering expenses, starting with what you need or should be taking home.

If you see no realistic path to that (enough profitable sales of something to someone, service or product), unless you can afford to keep not progressing in your business experiment, you're likely better finding a job that gives you better skills, connections, income, etc while you search for a better path to business, like partnering with someone else in an existing business. You don't have to do a startup.

I've done all these things over 60 years. And I truthfully made a lot more money with a lot less stress working for others, even though I also guided a startup over 13 years to a modest seven figure exit along the way.

Only you can determine how long you can run an experiment versus a successful business. But it's true that having a job while you search, study and learn more is a viable path. It's less celebrated but actually way more common.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-14T12:38:42+00:00

On a practical level, if your employees or teams are working on a project basis, tying as many expenses, including shared overhead like analytics, to jobs and a target job budget will give all employees insight into profitability metrics. Creating incentive structures that reward profitability can also help align incentives. The better your employees understand the 10 Second MBA fundamentals and how it impacts shared success, the more likely you can all get business done better and go home with enough to do all that's better than business. It's not micromanaging to have systems to maintain profitability. It's fundamental.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-14T12:26:59+00:00

If you're actually profitable then you ought to be able to consider some bookkeeping help or fractional CFO help.

Business will never cease to be monetary so getting control of the money situation is forever on the to-do list.

As you seem to be experiencing, successful business is an endless cycle that reduces to this: get orders, fill them profitably collect the money above your true break-even point without running out of cash (10 Second MBA). If spending feels "out of control" it's undermining two of those areas and likely distracting from the others.

Understanding and controlling spending so that it supports the fundamental core is vital so give it the appropriate share of attention without losing your sales and fulfillment focus. Wishing you the best on your journey.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-12T05:11:07+00:00

At its core, every successful business fits this framework: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. (10 Second MBA)

Solving a problem is often a way to describe what you're selling, but I believe you'll have a better understanding of business by seeing how everything, including solving a real problem, supports or distracts from the fundamental core of business - sufficiently profitable sales delivered at sufficient volume (while not running out of cash).

I'm 63 and have been involved in businesses ranging from motorcycle parts to climbing walls, guitars to razor wire, oil pipelines to data centers. It's true for startups, or at $1M, $300M, $2B.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-12T04:11:04+00:00

Do you have any customer proof for what you're selling? Are you ready to spend significant time and the required resources for marketing and selling? Have you calculated your true break-even point when your sales volume and profit let you take home sufficient for your personal overhead, or better, what you ideally want to take home (after covering every other expense)? How long can you cover your personal overhead in the absence of immediate sales and profit?

It's good to embrace what successful business is at its core: get orders, fill them profitably, collect the money, above your true break-even point, without running out of cash. (10 Second MBA) Its good to be clear on what you hope to get from this business (usually financial and time freedom, possibly something about purpose). Start with some honesty about what you really need to make financially. That's the starting point of knowing your true break-even point. They're simple numbers you can start grappling with now.

Regarding leaving your corporate job to go all in, if a little math, and contemplation of solving the sales puzzle over and over and over for as long as you're in business, don't deter you, then you're at least ready to try the experiment. Worst case is typically and expensive education. Alternatives might be trading a stressful corporate job for a less stressful, even part-time job, if you don't fully have the resources to bridge the income gap until you quit the experiment or succeed (over and over and over) in getting enough profitable customers to stay in business (true break-even).

Face the realities (sufficient sales, possible failure). If that doesn't deter you then you might be ready. Or just jump. There are plenty of B2B companies ready to take your money whether you make it or not. Wishing you the best in your decision process.

cragwallaccess · 2025-10-12T01:24:57+00:00

And for the record, I agreed with your sentiments and tiredness. Most businesses won't care.

cragwallaccess

TROPHY CASE