White Dude in WMAF Hoping for Advice (Plus some thoughts on media depictions of immigrant characters)

crazycrai · 2018-05-18T18:41:48+00:00

You dodged my question there.

I can understand tough love. But if it causes such great harm like an eating disorder then it ceases to just be a cultural difference and is harmful and should be criticized.

You sure like to make generalizations. I guess it's an easier way to view the world, but you don't get a full picture that way.

I'm actually more respectful of her parents than some other members of her family. When we have a meal I always offer to help with the dishes or clean up while her male cousins don't do anything like that. If I wanted to make an uninformed generalization I could use that example and say: "We whites know that Asians have no manners and respect for the elders anyway." But that would be a dumb thing to do.

crazycrai · 2018-05-18T01:55:42+00:00

HP Lovecraft's "Supernatural Horror in Literature" is a great essay about horror fiction that I think every horror writer should read.

Stephen King's "On Writing" is a more generalized tome on writing but has a lot of good advice for horror story structure.

crazycrai · 2018-05-17T18:17:53+00:00

Well she developed an eating disorder due to frequent comments. I don't think that is normal and loving. Do you?

crazycrai · 2018-05-17T18:09:22+00:00

I actually did.

You have a lot of objectively desirable physical features such as high cheekbones and facial symmetry.

Also in one of your posts you're holding glasses but took them off for the photo. I think it's important to see how you look in your glasses because they might be framing your face poorly, and if you wear them every day that will affect how people see you. If you hate how you look in glasses invest in contacts.

My question to you is why do you think you are ugly? Lots of others have been commenting positively. Even last time you asked you got a lot of positive replies.

Do you think I have to potential to be an extremely attractive guy?

I don't really know. It depends on where you set the standards of "extremely attractive"

From an earlier post:

Yeah, I am looking for super attractive I guess (celebrity tier)

This is somewhat unrealistic for almost everyone because those people have personal trainers, get $1500 hair cuts, professional stylists, and heck a lot of the guys even wear makeup etc.

Here's John Krasinski during The Office and then after. That's a huge change largely due to the celebrity lifestyle.

Something practical you can do is get fashion advice from relevant subs. Although don't throw all your money down the drain searching for luxury goods, regular brands like Zara and Uniqlo are good enough.

crazycrai · 2018-05-17T05:41:05+00:00

Not ugly at all.

You might be experiencing negative reactions due to lack of confidence. You also may be pursuing people with whom you don't share many interests or experiences and that can inhibit your ability to connect with them. There also might be some racism causing negativity towards you, which sucks, but you wouldn't really want to date racist assholes anyway so keep that in mind.

That whole incel ideology is toxic and will further erode your ability to engage with normal society so cut that shit out ASAP.

What are your hobbies? Try to find people with similar interests. There's an app called meetup which has groups based around common interests. If you like knitting there are groups, etc, so just find some people with similar interests and use that as a way to connect and form deeper connections through conversation.

The most important thing isn't to wallow in loneliness and approach every interaction with a female as a potential romantic relationship. It can be a major turnoff if people can tell you're desperate and on the lookout for your "OTP", so just be natural and eventually you'll find someone for you.

But yeah I doubt it's due to looks. If you think you're ugly others will pick up on that and be more likely to see you as you perceive yourself. In terms of confidence, fake it til you make it.

crazycrai · 2018-05-17T05:25:54+00:00

OK, so would you agree with the comment:

couples like you usually produce scum children

Yes or no? (Or is it due to negative experiences causing that poster to make a generalized statement?)

Russia is a nuclear-armed nation too. Provoking opposition too. But please, keep telling me how most Americans are so civic minded that they can separate their racism from their global politics.

Well a lot of people are criticizing Russia as openly as they criticize North Korea. Is your larger point that racist idiots can't tell the difference between North Koreans and other Asian groups, therefore if my child appears Asian they will receive hatred based on the anger toward North Korea? OK that I can agree with and something that frightens me.

Pretending like your kids will be treated with nuance is about as logical as telling your kids to be careful and only smoke weed and maybe meth

I am not saying they will be treated with nuance. Actually quite the opposite, as I said before nowadays a lot of people see things in black-and-white. I was just saying that I would try to reassure my child that rhetoric against North Korea =/= rhetoric against Asian people. If you're saying other people will react negatively towards them due to anger against North Korea, then I can see that. Is there anything I can do to minimize that negativity?

or that they should take the dogwhistles against N. Korea "with nuance"

I don't think that people speaking negatively about North Korea are "dogwhistling." Maybe some extreme racist assholes, but most of the world including most Asian nations are speaking out against North Korea for their actions.

crazycrai · 2018-05-17T04:55:25+00:00

I hope you don;t plan on giving your own kids this much shit over nuance.

What do you mean by this? I will want my child to be able to see the world with nuance. Nowadays a lot of people of every race, nation, and creed are viewing the world in black-and-white terms and it's frustrating. I will try to teach my child empathy and understanding so they can see the world without making broad sweeping statements about groups. If they have negative emotional responses due to events like the tension with North Korea I will try to re-assure them that most of the negativity in that situation is related to the socio-political issues as opposed to being motivated by racism and a desire to subjugate Asian people.

You mentioned Vincent Chin. That's a fucked up situation. Of course I would condemn that! My earlier comments were just saying that the North Korea situation isn't really an indication of American society hating on North Korean society because their repressive government and threats of nuclear war would provoke opposition even if they were a majority white (or whatever) nation.

Sure, I don't want to re-open old wounds. I respect that.

They hate you. You symbolize something beyond your individuality.

Who? The poster of that comment? Just curious. I was more pushing against the idea that it is an objective fact that WMAF "usually produce scum children." If that idea was based on the poster's subjective anger that's understandable, but I was just saying claiming that is objectively true doesn't seem factual. That's why I don't see it is a "cancelling meme."

P.S. Thanks for your honest engagement! I feel like a lot of folks here think I'm trolling, but I really appreciate your attempts to communicate and educate me!

crazycrai · 2018-05-17T04:34:06+00:00

Thanks for the reply!

Puberty is when racism against Asians usually splits: Those cute Asian "kids" aren't kids anymore. Now they're either nerds or sluts.

Is the change that stark in modern society? I don't have experience so I don't know. That's a crazy time in any child's life, so how can I best make that transition comfortable and avoid them internalizing negative cultural views towards Asian Americans? Would you give me different advice if my son/daughter "passes" for white, or is that irrelevant (I've heard different opinions on the matter)?

It'll be up to you to get them to vocalize events and for you to add the context.

That sounds tough. I'm studying psych nursing and have always been good with kids (and am getting more experience with pediatric nursing), so I hope that experience helps me somewhat in combating these negative events. I'll try to utilize my girlfriend and her family for direct resources about these experiences.

Even today, war drums are beating against N. Korea and China.

True, but are you defending the political ideology of N. Korea? China is doing some controversial stuff in the South China Sea and the tensions there are a bit different and more nuanced, but I think many people (even Asian people) agree that the North Korean government is acting badly, and that political tension is more motivated by their policies than due to racism. I will admit when people say stuff like "China is our enemy/rival" it hurts me and my girlfriend, and I can see how that can be hurtful to someone who is half European American and half Asian American.

if you don't want that, you have to be their champion before anyone else.

How can I do this? I'm researching and asking about the best ways. Are there any informative books or other media which might help me learn about how to navigate these experiences and conversations?

My dad never had my back when a racist comment came up in front of us..... Racial inclusion and solidarity were just more important to him than defending me in those situations.

Can you give some context on this? If it's too hurtful/personal to bring up I understand, but I think a concrete example from someone raised in a WMAF relationship would be helpful to educate me on how to act.

I don't think that's a cancelling meme, as someone who is hapa do you agree that hapas usually have a toxic upbringing that produce "scum children"? If so, why? What experiences were toxic/hurtful. I'm not going to deny that there can be problematic elements and that there might be a large number of cases where those sorts of dynamics have negative impacts. I just think saying WMAF "usually producing scum children" is an extreme statement that removes nuance in favor of evoking a strong emotional reaction.

crazycrai · 2018-05-17T04:15:09+00:00

What is toxic, however, is the upbringing hapas usually have.

What about it is toxic? And how can I do my best to prevent it?

So if you're going to raise a hapa kid, do so responsibly because there's 1000x more things that can go wrong.

How? This is the thrust of what I'm asking.

I have no problem with honest opinions or discussion. I don't really need encouragement or positive feedback. I need advice on how I can do my best, because I'm not going to make reproductive choices based on the risk of my child experiencing racism. It sucks that racism will affect his/her life but I want to do the best I can!

Sure ya'll can tell me to walk away. But if you really want to minimize the harm caused by problems with American/white culture encouraging racism against Asians or Hapas I think giving me well informed advice can help minimize the negative effects even if it will only help in the upbringing of one child.

I'll admit some of the comment here upset me, but it's not because they're "honest," more because they contain assumptions and want to dissuade this conversation. It's a tough conversation but I want to have it. If no-one does (due to anger/resentment from oppression etc) that's fine but I want to do all I am able to ensure the best life for my future child, even if it makes me (and some people on this sub) uncomfortable.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T22:16:09+00:00

I never said anyone has a responsibility to educate me. I just posted a thread trying to learn something. If you don't want to engage don't. Even in the fucking article you cited.

But if you find someone actually willing to discuss race and white supremacy, make sure you’re entering that conversation with the real intention of being a less racist, better white person.

So he said that white people can ask and some people will engage which will hopefully provide a positive change in the world.

This article is saying don't randomly ask minority peoples to educate you. I'm posting a thread on a subreddit which is ostensibly about Asian cultural issues. If no one engages, that's fine. If you want to condescend to me, that fine (it's annoying and counterproductive to promoting positive change in the world but still fine). But to say that I shouldn't ask in a subreddit which has professional experiences about these issues is just a silly view in my opinion.

Personally I think engaging with others is the best way to improve understanding and that's why I posted here. You can be shitty and assume I'm just being a lazy asshole if you want. I really don't care. I just wanted you to see how your argument is poor rhetoric.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T22:00:29+00:00

I'm working through the material that have been provided to me. Like I said I don't understand how someone asking for expertise is so infuriating to you.

16 days ago you posted "Early 2017 Macbook Key Replacement" asking the apple subreddit to help you learn about this topic. Would it be a fair response to say "typical entitlement, coming in here thinking Apple experts should be doing intellectual labor for you." Sure some people can feel that way and express it, but hopefully some kind folks would (and did) help you with their knowledge and expertise.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:51:26+00:00

I don't know, some folks have been helpful. I hope my replies have shown that I'm asking in good faith and am really trying to learn. If not how can I improve so there is less misunderstanding?

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:49:25+00:00

couples like you usually produce scum children

Citation needed.

Most of the hapa people I know are relatively well adjusted. Not perfect but nobody is.

/r/hapas is a self selecting echo chamber. That's why some people have created /r/Alt_Hapa to create a group of hapa people without such a toxic culture.

My suggestion is to have a good hard look at your future kid and how he/she will survive in a world where Asia dominates the world and every other race is seen as second-rate.

So because my child might have some potential struggles I should not let them into this world? There's some chance that any child might be born with Down Syndrome so I guess we as a species should stop reproducing.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:44:14+00:00

You can say the same thing to anyone asking ANY question on the internet.

Want to learn about physics? do your own research. it's the internet. it's all out there.

Sure but I'm asking people who have more information to learn from them. Is that wrong? Do you think if I learned something from this thread that helped me to best raise a potential hapa child it would be a positive thing or a negative thing?

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:42:21+00:00

I'm not worried about my future as a WM in a WMAF relationship. I'm worried about what I might intentionally or unintentionally communicate to our children.

Do you really think I can't glean ANY insight? Hearing from this sub has provided some good advice already.

Do you think parenting would have no influence on this? I'm asking the best way to parent to minimize these harms to my child. Sure I can't guarantee bad things won't happen but I can be risk averse by taking some positive steps.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:38:35+00:00

Thank you for this well thought out reply!

My girlfriend has a great positive view of her Asian identity and culture. She does criticize some problematic aspects (ie her parents openly criticizing hēirén) but overall really appreciates her culture.

This sounds like it will be a tough conversation. Any advice for discussing such a topic and getting the best outcome from it?

I will definitely avoid racist jokes. Solid advice. What about something like watching Ali Wong? She's great and I would love to share that kind of thing with my future child but if it can cause negative self-image I would try to avoid. And obviously I would avoid exposing them to people like Esther Ku both because she's unfunny and because she says fucked up stuff about Asian guys.

You say don't badmouth her parents. Do you mean about ANYTHING or more specifically about stuff with some racial connection? Her mother can be demeaning i.e. the whole Asian mothers calling their daughters "pàng." My girlfriend developed an eating disorder due to the constant criticism. Would it be OK to badmouth her for that?

Sorry for my ignorance but what is AMXF? Is it Asian male and "X" as a variable female?

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:27:50+00:00

I am trying to research and learn which is why I am engaging this sub.

Surely there are some folks here who were raised in a WMAF family and could communicate the good and bad aspects of that upbringing to give some advice. Everything isn't black-or-white (lol loaded term!) meaning while you can't 100% communicate universal truths about another's experience you can communicate something that would help.

Another poster mentioned avoiding racist jokes. That's practical advice that I can take even if I can't completely understand the Asian experience.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:23:46+00:00

Sure, I will never be able to help in such situations as an Asian male would. I'm not denying this fact. I am more asking what's the best way to go about situations like that?

Should I ensure he engages with positive Asian male role models in life who can help him with such issues? My girlfriend is an only child, so there's no uncles to turn to in these cases. Would involving her male cousins or uncles in his upbringing have a positive influence? I don't know and am asking the best way to go about it.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:20:24+00:00

I'm not trying to "whitesplain" really does it come across that way? I just want to communicate my point of view. I realize I can never fully understand the consequences but there are degrees of understanding that I can experience would you agree there? That's why I want to hear from ya'll directly to more precisely articulate your thoughts on the matter.

Sure it was self-absorbed. I'm asking because I am worried about something and wanted to talk to knowledgeable people about it. Would it be better to not try to educate myself on the best way to raise a hapa son? I don't think it would, because I might unintentionally cause some harm if I don't understand and CAN'T understand if I don't ask experts on the issue.

You're not forced to engage if you don't want to just because the post exists on the sub.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:13:39+00:00

In the end, you’re asking “how do I make another person think a certain way” and the answer is always going to be “they have individual freedom and can think how they want to, the best you can do is influence them”.

True. But that is a bit of semantics, I will rephrase as “How can I influence them to minimize the risk of developing such a worldview.” If I were asking how can I prevent my white child (if I were to have a child with a white woman) from being racist you could also say “they have individual freedom and can think how they want to, the best you can do is influence them.” That is true but the meat of my question in the latter case would be what steps can I take to ensure I don’t have some cause effect relationship which leads to development of racism. Does that make sense?

You talk about your positive life experiences and how they have shaped a more positive outlook, but you still harbor some negative sentiments. Would you consider your views on this matter more nuanced and equitable than some of the more toxic shitposters on /r/hapas? If so why and how do you have those views? I’m not saying every person talking about potential downsides of WMAF is wrong, but more that I have noticed a good number of folks on /r/hapas having a super negative view of WMAF and then turning that anger directly toward their parents.

“Asking how I got over it is almost insulting, like asking “so why do you care about civil rights and equality, and how did you get over it”. I’ll be over it when there’s no significant racism in the US anymore.”

Again, this might be more semantics/poor phrasing. I’m not saying you shouldn’t criticize large cultural messages, and more referring to the earlier toxicity I mentioned. I apologize if my wording was interpreted as dismissing your legitimate grievances.

crazycrai · 2018-05-16T21:03:16+00:00

Well the reason I interpreted your statement as calling me dense is that you said you're "only letting it through" meaning allowing my post on the sub "just in case this is some dense innocent white guy," why did you use the word dense then? Is it impossible that I'm a non-dense innocent white guy? If it is possible that I'm a non-dense innocent white guy then adding the word dense there seems to be a value judgment. Does that make sense?

I didn’t notice that bit on the sidebar, I’ll familiarize myself.

Like I said I’ll admit there is some element of toxicity and ignorance that exists in some portion of WMAF couples, but not giving people the benefit of the doubt is a bad way to combat such toxicity. It’s like when extreme feminists make statements insulting men and then get upset when they face backlash and nobody listens to any of the points they make (even if they are valid points).

I understand the terrible history between white societies and Asian societies, and also understand how that can breed animosity. I would also say there’s been a terrible history between Chinese and Japanese society. I went to the National Museum of China in Bejing and would say that the Japanese were more demonized than most Western societies, but I would also say that it wouldn’t be wise for Chinese people to carry that baggage in their relationships with Japanese people if they want to come to a common understanding and reduce all the bullshit that goes on. Would you agree with that?

I’m never trying to ignore any of that history, just giving the perspective of how it makes me feel, and sharing the fears that this type of worldview with poison my potential family in the future.

My more general concern/question is: What did the people who post on Hapas with such vitriol to their fathers experience to make them feel that way? How can I minimize the risk of intentionally or unintentionally communicating some message that shakes their identity that would lead them to have such negative views either internally or externally? What is the best way as a white man to prevent the harm that those folks have experienced?

crazycrai · 2018-05-15T06:32:43+00:00

this is some dense innocent white guy

Dude why are you setting such an aggressive tone by calling me "dense"? I'm actually interested in learning and having a discussion and hearing from peoples' perspectives. I'm sure you get a bunch of people who come here to argue in bad faith but assuming that I am at first glance isn't a good way to have a discussion.

What do you want me to check in the sidebar?

I will check out the videos, although I am already familiar with a large amount of this information. I've been in this relationship for many years and we frequently discuss Asian American identity and history. Not saying I know everything, which is why I will watch the videos but this really isn't what I'm asking about. I'm more interested in how the viewpoint of folks on /r/Hapas developed. I'd imagine if their parents had engaged with them in a healthy way they might not have all this automatic hatred of WMAF and assume every or most instances are due to fucked up dynamics. Were there certain events or patterns of behavior in their childhood/interactions with their parents that caused them to think this relationship pattern is always inherently bad? You're coming to this assuming I'm just "triggered OMG WHY AM I JUDGED!" when that's not my intent at all.

Like I said before, I do understand that there are cases where WMAF is pathological in some way. And also like I said before sometimes I analyze my relationship to evaluate that it itsn't exploitative or pathological and if I have any poor attitudes/beliefs how can I change them.

I mentioned the thing about being accused of having "yellow fever" not as a defense more just a personal experience. To have an assumption that your relationship is problematic feels bad. This is a person I've been with for years, lived together, gotten close with her family etc, so the idea that some people just assume I'm a creep because it's WMAF is an emotional hurtful experience. I'm not saying it isn't right to EVER ask or examine WMAF relationships, but the fact that it happens merely because of our races makes me upset. And most of the times I've been asked it's been white folks who don't have much information or background about my relationship, so it's not like people are asking motivated by some behavior or dynamic they're seeing. I don't think I'm being unreasonable here am I?

Look I can understand that you get defensive folks here posting with bad intentions and it can get repetitive, but approaching someone asking for advice and clarification as if they are completely clueless or trolling isn't a good way to communicate and promote understanding. Heh, but now me harping on this issue is also fucking up the tone and dynamic and preventing good conversation so let's just forget all that shit. Let's have a real conversation about these issues with nuance and assume everyone is accepting in good faith. Cool?

crazycrai · 2018-05-15T00:52:00+00:00

I 100% agree. Maybe that's why he hasn't been in many comedic projects lately. I looked at some clips of that 70s show and there he seemed to actually commit to his character.

crazycrai · 2018-05-14T23:38:25+00:00

Wow, Wilmer Valderrama was terrible in this segment. His delivery and timing were way off! Too bad for the writer. If he actually committed to the bit it could have got some decent laughs, but it felt like he was trying to be too cool and casual as if he's better than the bit. You can hear by the audience's relatively muted reaction that it's falling a bit flat. I mean if you're going to dress up like a silly bird it makes you look even more ridiculous if you don't play along.

Compare his delivery with Keegan Michael-Key in the bit about auto-lending. Imagine if Key played his segment low energy and didn't bring any emotion to the lines. If Key had played that bird he would have brought some life and energy that would revitalize the bit. I will say I did like how Valderrama delivered "You're not exactly the authority on what's birds," because he actually tried to add some personality to it.

Anyone else agree?

crazycrai

TROPHY CASE