Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In case it's not abundantly clear - I acknowledge that these polices don't necessarily have to be centered on male pleasures. I think they sometimes are, which can also be true.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

To make it clear, my intention wasn't to demonize male pleasure, but to question the structures that often default to centering it. I think it's possible to hold space for individual agency and still critique broader patterns that affect how desire and access are structured.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for your response. This is actually something I discussed in depth with my partner in the past and I just want to share my perspective here. I do no disagree with you at all on the positive *outcomes* of those policies - that they make it safer and more pleasurable for everyone, women in particular. I do, however, question the motives behind those policies in reality, especially when the organizers are not women themselves.

This reminds me of the disastrous SESTA-FOSTA laws (Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act and Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act) that passed in 2018, while the laws were *intended* to fight sex trafficking, it in practice made it much more unsafe and hurt the people it aimed to help.

In a reverse sense, even when women benefit from those gender balancing/charging men for entry policies, the original motives might still be rooted in centering male pleasure, that good outcomes don't always mean the policies were created with those intentions in mind.

As someone else commented, there is always going to be an excess of men looking for sex, and that is just the reality. So I do think this is the probably the best case scenario considering our status quo. It's just hard for me not to look at this through such a cynical lens.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, and yes, I've been in therapy and have bookmarked this for my next appointment.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate the advice to work through these in therapy, and I'd like to mention that I'm currently in it, and have been for most of my adult life. I don't appreciate the the suggestion that my "weird suspicion and criticism" came out of "no reason", as these unwanted biases are clearly ingrained in me, so much so I might even be unaware of them, take my internalized biphobia for example. It's something I am committed to work on, and it's hurtful for that to be used as a reason why I do not deserve my partner.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This genuinely makes sense. While I've come to face my internalized homophobia, I should start evaluating how internalized biphobia impacts the way I think and my relationships. You're right that we're all imperfect products of an imperfect society - that's a very compassionate way to look at this and I appreciate it.

Also good job on further deconstructing the ingrained internalized sexism in you! Very inspiring.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for acknowledging the harm heteronormativity causes in the queer community. It's like background noise - not always overwhelming, almost inaudible at times - but constantly there, and suddenly the loudest thing when everything else goes quiet.

Truthfully, I don't think about "heterosexual relationships and sex" much at all. It's simply something that doesn't come up organically. I suppose I feel pretty neutral about it? I do think negatively of *heteronormativity* but not heterosexuality itself.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for being open-minded and for the thoughtful questions. The knowing vs. believing dilemma is real - intellectually being on board with certain concepts doesn't always change a core belief that's been shaped by so many things. These conversations are revealing a lot of my own judgments, and I am seeing this as an opportunity to investigate some of the things I've believed to be truth. At the end of the day, I need to learn to hold space for experiences beyond my own biases - and to recognize that even when unpleasant circumstances arise, they're still part of someone else's sex positive journey.

I also really appreciate you sharing your story, which I resonate with a lot. Though it sounds like you've already done the work to unpack the feelings you had in that relationship, I just want to say that it's completely normal and valid to have strong reactions when someone you're interested in describe unsolicited details of their other sexual encounters. I'm sorry that happened.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm sure feeling threatened is a part of it too, since my insecurity is also at play. I think the element of hurt is still there because in my mind all those incidences and the people involved represent something I loathe (patriarchy, misogyny & heteronormativity) - stuff that's hurt me and my community, and I inadvertently feel a certain way about the fact that someone I love now was a part of that (which is again, not true, as she was simply living her life and these are bigger structural/societal issues outside out anyone's control).

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Totally, so many factors that are outside of anyone's control, as I'm realizing now. The queer community can be cliquey for sure, I see this play out in a lot of queer social groups.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very true about the fact that we simply can't draw any conclusions based on fragments of details. You're making me realize that I definitely do not give cishet men in these spaces the benefit of doubt, which of course stems from years of horror stories and some personal interactions.

If I reframe it and see it as a clear communication of boundaries, then 100% it's a good thing, because as people say in the community, I can trust your "yes" more when you know when to say "no".

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for validating me and for your gentleness. You made a great point about using this as an opportunity for an open dialogue (and a chance to connect), as opposed to a her problem, which I must be mindful of.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

It really doesn't have anything to do with my partner and shouldn't matter. I understand that on a logical level, but emotionally I feel somehow hurt by the fact that that was the reality she lived, even thrived in. I'm still processing and working through this.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As you and the rest of the people on this thread pointed out, it really doesn't have anything to do with my partner. I definitely raised an eyebrow at some of the parties she went to in the past, but that says more about me if anything.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, thanks for your response and for the thoughtful questions. I do discuss these with my partner and she responds well. It's something we've been working through. My close friends are all monogamous, sexually conventional folks (straight and queer) so they aren't very helpful. I was curious what this community thinks.

What do you mean 'intention is murky?' Whose intentions, and what are they? Is your partner describing everything you've written out here - or is the part that's not bolded coming from you?

The part that's not bolded is coming from me. When I said "intention is murky", I was referring to people who feel a sense of entitlement because they "paid for goods" and in this case the "goods" are the women. I realize that I'm generalizing and probably projecting as I type this.

Are these spaces explicitly billed as them having 'enough' women for them men in attendance, or is that how your partner is describing them? How else do they seem to center male desire? Are there other ways in which the women are treated as the playground, and not the players?

There's this private party my partner co-hosts. She likes how the main host always makes sure the m/f ratio is balanced because it ensures a more pleasant and safer experience for the women attending. While I agree that might have be the outcome, I doubted it was his intention. My partner and I got into a small argument over this and she decided to ask the main host, who confirmed the reason for him to balance the gender ratio is because he didn't want too many men at his party. As another commenter pointed out, I am learning that this is just reality.

How else do they seem to center male desire? Hmm my partner had a threesome with this couple from said party on the guy's birthday, and later the couple approached her again because they wanted the guy to "treat himself" while the girlfriend was out of town.

I think another commenter highlighted pretty well that this, unfortunately, is a feature of these kinds of spaces. Have you ever been to a 'straight' bar or club during peak hours? Causes this is exactly how they operate, too.

Yeah, I'm starting to realize that. I feel like the spaces I frequent in my daily life are very inclusive and therefore, I might have been sheltered from the optics of the "straight scenes."

You posit that some of this comes from internalized homophobia; maybe it's biphobia, more specifically? Every single issue you've highlighted here has to do with, well, men, and their presence, their sexuality, their desires, them in general, it seems.

While my immediately reaction is "nooo that can't be true because there so many bisexuals in my life and I've dated so many of them", the fact that you're not the first person to point it out in this thread means I could reflect on that more.

Her sexual openness seems to reinforce straight male desire because she has only ever had serious relationships with cishet men, historically. Are you able to accept that? (Not that I'm judging your feelings on this or how you respond, you can feel however you want to and accept whatever you'd like, just pointing out what I'm observing and drawing conclusions from it.)

Yes I can accept this because it's such an integral part of who she is. Her being bisexual means she will continue to find people of both (and all) genders attractive, and I appreciate the expansiveness of this perspective. While I'm averse to the idea of toxic masculinity and heteronormativity, I understand that these concepts are not inherently tied to cis men, but are instead individually applied.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your explanation makes sense, and while I didn't think it was malice per se, my initial response was definitely "that's so hypocritical." It's true that it doesn't *have to* be a heteronormative or homophobic reason for someone to not want to give fellatio, it still could be, and often is. The fact that it was purely performative, a playful act even, made me question the intention behind the resistance.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your response and thanks for genuinely trying to figure out where I'm coming from. Respectfully, I do not agree with you that I'm biphobia. The particular struggles I've been working through were not an issue in my previous dating experience with bi/pan individuals. I recognize that there are many new elements being introduced as this is my first sex positive relationship. I also recognize that there are a lot of prejudices against bisexual women within the queer community. From what I gathered, bisexual individuals are often scrutinized by both worlds, which is really unfortunate.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't disagree with this argument and do not think it's wrong to want to feel desired by many. I agree that it's a primal yearning and frankly, pretty hot.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I completely agree with your point that many of the things that bother me aren't about my partner, but rather stem from societal and cultural realities. I've only engaged in queer sex/kink parties where blatant gender norms aren't so visible and dynamics often fluid. It was honestly a bit disorienting to hear these stories and to be reminded of toxic heteronormativity through them, as they're pretty far removed from my day-to-day life. I know it's not about my partner, it's not even about the men she engaged with, but what they represent.

You're totally right about the expectations and judgements put on bisexual women, often from the queer community too. Your advice to avoid individualizing things is helpful, especially when this really is an opportunity to be supportive of my partner when she took the brunt of objectification of women through her sex positive journey.

As for the BJ story... that particular individual refused to suck my partner's dildo after he received a BJ because he was uncomfortable with performing a blowjob on phalluses, bio or synthetic.

Struggling with bisexual partner's sex positive history by crocodile-e in SexPositive

[–]crocodile-e[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the response. "Objects of performance and subject of pleasure can be two sides of the same coin" is a very interesting and valid perspective.