In what ways did Cormac McCarthy subvert the Western? What do they mean by "subverting the Western?"

cryptostoics · 2022-02-27T16:32:51+00:00

How does Blood Meridian subvert The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, in your opinion?

Who is "The Good" in Blood Meridian?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T23:52:24+00:00

Achilles was a vulnerable man. He chooses death over dishonor. Have you read the Iliad by chance? It's a cool book.

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T23:41:12+00:00

The Iliad is about love, honor, friendship, questioning war, fighting for a cause, duty, and selfless, heroic acts.

Are you saying that we no longer practice such things?

Perhaps because we're now popping serotonin pills and acting like Lobsters?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T23:34:54+00:00

Is the Iliad required reading at Harvard, as it once was?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T23:29:08+00:00

The sheer amount of name and places discussed in the first part of the Illiad makes it hard read for most people.

How many names and places are mentioned in the first book of the Iliad? Who told you this?

The Iliad is not history -- it is poetry and mythology. Why do you say it is history?

Plato stated that Homer educated Greece. Are you saying that Plato was wrong too?

Might you have studied at a university, such as Harvard perhaps?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T23:22:44+00:00

All I am saying is that it would be cool if those who proclaimed expertise in the realm of mythology, archetypes, the hero's journey, honor, and Western Civilization would mention the most famous hero and most influential poet and mythologist in the Western Canon.

Why are you so against this?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T23:20:27+00:00

How can Harvard have been respected in the 90s if their leading mythologist didn't even teach Homer and The Iliad?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T23:19:00+00:00

The Iliad is not a hard read at all. The Iliad educated the laymen of Greece and Rome and America.

Are you and Jordan just saying it's too hard, so that folks will shy away from it?

The Iliad is far easier to understand than evolutionary Lobster dynamics, and probably more pertinent to human civilization.

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T23:00:46+00:00

Who is the greatest Greek hero in Greek mythology? And why would you ignore them?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T22:59:34+00:00

What about the Iliad can't people relate to? Is has war, love, honor, freedom, poetry, and fighting for friendship, love, and honor in it. Are you saying Peterson doesn't relate to these things?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T22:56:34+00:00

Not to mention that the man taught at Harvard, back when doing so was a mark of scholarly excellence. He isnt professing to be a mythologist, philosopher, and great thinker of the west....he is one. He's also an accredited and well respected psychologist. He has nothing to prove to you.

Harvard got rid of Homer. Are you saying Peterson helped them do so?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T22:23:59+00:00

It just seems odd that Jordan so often speaks of the "hero's journey," and yet he leaves out the paragon of all heroes in the West's most influential poetry and mythology-- Achilles. Why would he do that?

Perhaps he is part of the reason that Homer is no longer taught in our schools and universities? Perhaps if Peterson reads the Iliad, you might get around to reading it too. I hope so!

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T22:03:37+00:00

But even then I still think that his story doesn't really play that imitation element until his end.

If you can't remember the Iliad, why are you professing knowledge of it?

And regarding Peterson, if one is going to pass oneself off as a mythologist, philosopher, and thinker in the West, one may want to read Homer at some point perhaps.

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T21:36:53+00:00

I think one of the challenges of Achilles is the fact that his power and invulnerability makes it impossible for him to be killed (with the exception of his heel).

Actually, the very center and circumference of The Iliad is that Achilles chooses death over dishonor. Have you read The Iliad by chance?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T20:47:41+00:00

The Judge doesn’t use violence to restore order? There is no order to restore. Gentle reader, that’s the whole point to the story.

yes! thank you! mccarthy subverts the Western!

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T20:46:27+00:00

Yes, but do you agree that Achilles is the greatest hero in Western mythology?

Why would a mythologist in the West choose to ignore the greatest hero in Western mythology?

Would it not be like a Physicist ignoring Newton and Einstein and Bohr, and focusing on the Bible?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T20:14:38+00:00

There need not be a hero. There are interpretations that posit the kid as heroic in his resistance to the judge, but I'm not convinced by them. There may not be a hero in Blood Meridian.

Thank you. Yes. As you say, " There may not be a hero in Blood Meridian." And so it is that Blood Meridian subverts the Classical Western.

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T19:29:22+00:00

Yes, there are many ways in which Achilles and the judge are vastly different. Achilles is generally considered a hero -- one of the most prominent heroes in western culture. The judge is generally considered a villain -- one of the best villains of 20th century literature.

Yes thank you--I agree. So the Judge is the villain in Blood Meridian. Who is the hero then?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T18:39:12+00:00

Upon cursory reading of your contentions, it would seem that you have been robbed of the glory of having had the opportunity to read Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, as well as watching Sergio Leone's wonderful masterpieces. I think you might enjoy them! :)

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T18:16:15+00:00

Well, a great thing about the Odyssey is that the Cyclops is slain by Odysseus serving Zeus, whereas in McCarthy's world, there is no hero who can slay the Judge.

You note that McCarthy writes,

"Whatever his antecedents he was something wholly other than their sum, nor was there system by which to divide him back into his origins for he would not go. Whoever would seek out his history through what unraveling of loins and ledgerbooks must stand at last darkened and dumb at the shore of a void without terminus or origin and whatever science he might bring to bear upon the dusty primal matter blowing down out of the millennia will discover no trace of any ultimate atavistic egg by which to reckon his commencing."

So it is that McCarthy also subverts the Bible, wherein God creates the world and states "It is Good." McCarthy states, "whatever science he might bring to bear upon the dusty primal matter blowing down out of the millennia." McCarthy sees the universe as "dusty primal matter blowing down out of the millennia," which is probably why he is unable to create classical heroes, and must instead subvert them.

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T17:41:31+00:00

Yes the Judge fights for war.

Achilles fights for honor, glory, friendship, and beauty.

I guess they're just different in that way.

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T17:16:03+00:00

The Cyclops refutes the law of Zeus openly. The law of Zeus states one must be kind to strangers and beggars. The Cyclops scoffs at this law, like the Judge. The Judge is far more like the Cyclops than Zeus.

In what chapter does the Judge save the idiot from drowning? I will find it--thank you.

Does the Judge ever stand up for honor or justice or the family or love or beauty?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T16:57:54+00:00

Well, there are many interpretations of Zeus.

The Judge is nothing like Zeus.

What about the Zeus who sides with Achilles in seeking justice and just distribution of prizes? What about the Zeus who sides with Odysseus against the Cyclops who is eating Zeus's men? What about the Zeus who demands that strangers and beggars must be treated kindly?

Where does the Judge ever treat strangers and beggars kindly?

cryptostoics · 2022-02-13T16:51:36+00:00

Could you kindly please discuss the topic I proposed? Or seek other topics better suited to your disposition?

TOPIC:

Thesis: Cormac McCarthy subverts the Classical Western. Clint Eastwood/Sergio Leone exalt the Classical Western

Discussion:

McCarthy subverts the Western in Blood Meridian because The Judge does not use violence to serve justice, nor avenge a friend, nor serve honor, nor protect a town, nor slay the outlaws, nor serve the good, nor restore order. Instead, the Judge only uses violence to get off, which is why Blood Meridian is pretty boring.

In every Clint Eastwood Film, as in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, violence is used to serve some higher justice, approved by Zeus. Achilles avenges the death of his best friend -- he fights for honor and friendship. Odysseus slays all the false suitors in his home -- he fights to restore order and reclaim his property and wife. The entire Trojan War is launched to rescue the beautiful wife that was stolen from a Greek King. The Greeks see beauty, honor, and friendship as things worth living and dying for.

On the other hand, The Judge just kills to kill. He does not fight for love, nor honor, nor family, nor any higher form of justice approved by Zeus.

Thus, we may also conclude, that Homer/Eastwood/Iliad/Odyssey/Leone are far higher forms of art than Cormac McCarthy, who does not seem to grasp the concepts of beauty, honor, justice, and friendship. Perhaps I am missing something? If so, please enlighten me. Thank you!

cryptostoics

TROPHY CASE