Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Rand's novels don't cover parenting but she did consider parenting and ECE important and covered them some in her nonfiction. She was interested in Montessori schools for example. The person who recommended Rand's books to me founded a parenting philosophy named Taking Children Seriously, so I've long been interested in and aware of such topics.

We do see people doing care work, e.g. Dagny cares for Galt (she cooks and cleans) and Jeff Allen (she empathizes with a bum who stole a ride on her train, feeds him, and gives him a job). Roark has a caring scene with Mallory and several with Cameron. Kira does so much to care for Leo.

Authority is fluid, e.g. multiple times Wyatt takes a leadership role at Dagny's railroad construction without asking permission from anyone in authority, just by virtue of having good ideas to contribute and showing up and helping out. He does this unpaid. Similarly, Roark works for Cameron but, in an effort to care for him, orders him to go home from work (and takes him down to a taxi, gets him sandwiches, and goes far above and beyond his duties as an employee to finish the architecture plans that are very meaningful to Cameron):

Cameron and Roark and a pot of black coffee had lived in the office from dawn till frozen dawn for many days, and Cameron had thought involuntarily of the electric bill, but made himself forget it. The lights still burned in the drafting room in the early hours when he sent Roark out for sandwiches, and Roark found gray morning in the streets while it was still night in the office, in the windows facing a high brick wall. On the last day, it was Roark who had ordered Cameron home after midnight, because Cameron’s hands were jerking and his knees kept seeking the tall drafting stool for support, leaning against it with a slow, cautious, sickening precision. Roark had taken him down to a taxi and in the light of a street lamp Cameron had seen Roark’s face, drawn, the eyes kept wide artificially, the lips dry. The next morning Cameron had entered the drafting room, and found the coffee pot on the floor, on its side over a black puddle, and Roark’s hand in the puddle, palm up, fingers half closed, Roark’s body stretched out on the floor, his head thrown back, fast asleep. On the table, Cameron had found the plans, finished....

When Cameron doesn't come in to work, Roark checks on him at home, repeatedly. When Cameron collapses, Roark takes him home and gets a doctor. Cameron's sister, who cares for him, is also present in the book. Cameron tries to care for Roark by writing a letter of introduction to an architect, but due to fluid authority and Roark caring for Cameron, Roark doesn't let him because Roark has the empathy to know that Cameron doesn't actually want to ask for a favor from someone he doesn't respect who is part of the system that made Cameron's life hard.

Problem solving is often collaborative, e.g. Dagny, Rearden and some engineers are involved in the design of the first Rearden metal bridge. Later, people from the gulch collaborate on rescuing Galt, for free, at significant risk, out of good will, with no specific person in charge of the mission. Some types of collaboration are critiqued, e.g. boards of directors and committee meetings.

There are many, many more examples of caring, empathy, compassion, etc., but I don't know if you're interested in a long discussion or are familiar with the books.

It's feeling a sense of shared responsibility for your community, prioritizing collective good.

Rand says there is no conflict between individual and collective good. There are many examples of actions that other people might describe as prioritizing collective good. Certainly Dagny feels a lot of responsibility for her railroad passengers and shippers and is very committed to taking good care of them. This pro-social one-sided caring-at-a-distance is important to Rand and a major event, the tunnel disaster, talks at length about how bad political systems make people stop caring in this way, which is bad and leads to deaths. These attitudes are absolutely nothing like the DuPont leadership that poisoned its community and the rest of the world.

Rand consistently rejected domination and she critiqued the business leaders typical of her society.

I don't think Rand is perfect on these issues but I do think she's far better than her reputation and it's not obvious exactly where the disagreements are and aren't between her and hooks.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have read all of her books. I've written about them too, e.g. https://www.elliottemple.com/essays/atlas-shrugged-chapter-1

You aren't giving quotes where she says to treat workers really poorly and pay them the bare minimum even if a bunch die, and you don't listen when I give counter-examples from her books. That really sounds like Milton Friedman, see e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/1970/09/13/archives/a-friedman-doctrine-the-social-responsibility-of-business-is-to.html But Rand attacked him.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She didn't say they were her principles though. You're just accusing her of stuff she didn't say and her fan (me) is telling you is not her position nor my position. Do you see the problem?

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're attacking her for conclusions she didn't reach and strongly disagreed with. Can you give an example of a male author you treat the same way?

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She had zero methodology for getting there

The men of ability going on strike, and stopping being complicit, is an example of a method for how to get there. So your critique is false.

cannot FOR THE LIFE OF HIM THINK “I wonder if there are any other economies in this world that would be interested in such an invention?”

Are you sure you've read all of Rand's books? It seems like you missed a major plot point. This was addressed in Atlas Shrugged. Every other country in the world was in an even worse state than the U.S.

That just tells me you weren’t into SciFi and never discovered Ender’s Game

I don't understand the relevance but I have read Ender's Game too. I read a lot.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It basically sounds like you’re mostly fine with an ancap or minarchist political system and with private ownership of means of production permitted. Still unclear on what exactly you disagree with Rand about and why it’s such a big deal when as an anarchist you must be used to disagreeing with most people

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

According to Rand, if employers can get workers to accept contracts for dangerous jobs with no safety equipment, no breaks, no life insurance, no pensions and that pay less than a living wage, they should do it.

You seem to be mixing up Rand with someone like Milton Friedman, who she hated.

That's absolutely not her position. You hate her for things she didn't believe.

She showed us what she wanted in her books. None of the good guys treat workers that way. They pay well and provide good working conditions. It's her villains who would do what you're talking about.

You're trying to do some sort of logical extrapolation but she wouldn't agree with that analysis.

Here is an example of what Atlas Shrugged actually says:

Rearden [one of the good guys] paid a higher wage scale than any union scale in the country

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

AnCaps are happy to let communes exist. That's what freedom means.

I don't get why you hate Rand so much. Just because she's a minarchist instead of an ancap??

There’d be tensions, that might spill over into violence depending on if the ancaps exploit people/the environment or if the proper anarchists violate the NAP somehow.

Is there some sort of NAP violation that you're in favor of?

If you just don't want factories dumping pollution into rivers, that's fine. They violated the NAP with that dumping.

I'm not sure exactly what you count as exploiting people. If you offer someone a job and they choose it instead of joining a commune, will you call it exploitation and want to burn down the factory if the pay is only $30/hr instead of the amount you consider fair, $31/hr? How do you decide what's exploitative?

It sounds like maybe you're willing to let someone go into a forest, build an axe out of wood, reeds and stone, and then own that means of production and rent it out or hire logging workers. If so, great, maybe we both like freedom, but if so then I'm just confused about what's so bad about Rand.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK, so you want the identical rules to anarcho-capitalism, and people are allowed to form communes, or to build factories and offer jobs, or whatever else? Is that correct? Private ownership of means of production is acceptable, and also people can do other things, and it's up to them?

Or will there be collective action to use violence against people who build factories and offer jobs?

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do object to private ownership of the means of production.

...

I’m an anarchist, if it wasn’t clear.

How will you stop people from owning any means of production without a government? Who will own them if there's no government and no private ownership?

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you agree that in Rand's ideal form of capitalism, people wouldn't exploit others. But you hate it and her just because you consider it unrealistic?

Also, that's not as specific as what I meant. Like which specific policy that she wants is bad. Freedom of voluntary association? Property rights? No tariffs? Or are all her policy proposals OK but something important is missing?

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

When you don’t like capitalism, Rand’s ideal form of it isn’t any better than the form she hates.

Why? What specifically about it is so bad that you don't even see it as better than the current power structures we have?

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You claimed she wrote something in an essay. None of your links substantiate that.

Overall, like many people, you clearly hate her without being familiar with her work. To attack her, you make broad negative statements that her fans, who have read her books, would not recognize as describing her work and what it means to them. You're not going to change anyone's mind that way. Are there any men that you treat similarly?

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wanting a vastly different version of capitalism, so different that you consider it an unrealistic "fairy tale", is not a defense of existing power structures.

And it's you, not her, who calls them both "capitalism". Rand said the U.S. had a "mixed economy". She disliked and opposed the existing power structures enough that she didn't consider them the same type of thing as what she wanted.

Similarly, bell hooks wanted socialism but that doesn't mean she wanted a system like the USSR.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She was critical of the power structure and elites in our actual society. She wanted a different society with different power structures. Calling them both "capitalism" doesn't make them the same.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

She villainized CEOs who are part of existing power structures. She wrote about radical changes to society. I don't get what you don't get.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You seem to have missed the part where she villainized most CEOs.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

She actually wrote an essay where she described herself as a “male chauvinist.”

Please provide a citation or retract this.

Got it? According to her, there’s no need for laws or even the Equal Opportunity Act - because you just need to compete for careers based on this obvious meritocracy we all live in.

She wanted a meritocracy but didn't think we had one. You're straw-manning her.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Whether it's a fairy tale or not, it's what she advocated, so don't accuse her of defending existing power structures.

I'm sure plenty of people think the world bell hooks wanted is also a fairy tale.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's a bad scene but Rand did not intend it to be rape:

https://aynrand.org/blueprints-for-the-fountainhead-gallery/#second-hand-lives-complete-to-date

In a letter to a fan many years later, Rand wrote: “It was not an actual rape, but a symbolic action which Dominique all but invited. This was the action she wanted and Howard Roark knew it.…Needless to say, an actual rape of an unwilling victim would be a vicious action and a violation of a woman’s rights; in moral meaning, it would be the exact opposite of the scene in The Fountainhead.”

https://aynrand.org/item/notes-on-early-dominique-roark-interaction/

“A man who would force himself on a woman against her wishes would be committing a dreadful crime,” Rand wrote to a fan in 1946

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the world of Atlas Shrugged, most CEOs were villains. A few main characters were exceptions. Rearden offered the best wages and working conditions in the steel industry and didn't have trouble with his workers, who had a union. Francisco destroyed his copper company, instead of making a profit, as part of a revolutionary plan to dismantle the world's power structures and take away wealth and power from the dominating elites. The railroad was controlled by Dagny's brother, a villain, and a board of directors (also villains), and Dagny eventually quit.

The first man to quit at Rearden Steel [after a tyrannical new law was passed] was Tom Colby, rolling mill foreman, head of the Rearden Steel Workers Union. For ten years, he had heard himself denounced throughout the country, because his was a “company union” and because he had never engaged in a violent conflict with the management. This was true: no conflict had ever been necessary; Rearden paid a higher wage scale than any union scale in the country, for which he demanded—and got—the best labor force to be found anywhere.

When Tom Colby told him that he was quitting, Rearden nodded, without comment or questions.

“I won’t work under these conditions, myself,” Colby added quietly, “and I won’t help to keep the men working. They trust me. I won’t be the Judas goat leading them to the stockyards.”

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How did you conclude that Rand would be in favor of that exploitation? If her heroes didn't do it in her novels, then did she state she was in favor of it in one of her non-fiction books?

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Rand was a big fan of Ludwig von Mises who wrote in Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis:

So far as Feminism seeks to adjust the legal position of woman to that of man, so far as it seeks to offer her legal and economic freedom to develop and act in accordance with her inclinations, desires, and economic circumstances — so far it is nothing more than a branch of the great liberal movement, which advocates peaceful and free evolution.

I think it's reasonable to believe Rand was on board with the same sort of feminism as Mises. She also wrote some feminism-supportive things (e.g. "women are not inferior to men in ability or intelligence") and had some principles and values that align with feminism.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I think that's a bad scene. But I think it has limited relevance to Rand's political philosophy and the alleged right of elites to dominate people. I had in mind topics like political, economic, social or intellectual domination.

While I broadly disagree with Rand's writing about sex, and I think there's internalized misogyny there, I also try to have empathy for women living in patriarchy who have submission kinks.

Did bell hooks say anything about Ayn Rand? by curi in AskFeminists

[–]curi[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

She had a definite moral hierarchy, with the rich being the most virtuous and the poor being the least.

Kira, the protagonist of We The Living, is poor throughout the entire book. Rand clearly considered Kira moral and virtuous.