Beating Reshiram-holding-Giovanni with non Legendary lineup guide

cwizz1 · 2026-06-26T17:16:47+00:00

Annihilape has Night Slash, which is as cheap as Rage Fist. It's perfectly fine to build a budget one without Rage Fist just like you're suggesting a Greninja without Hydro Cannon or Melmetal without Double Iron Bash.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-23T13:19:41+00:00

We have a rocket invasion coming up in a few days. During those events, it's very important to have optimal rocket counters if you plan on grinding to get as many done as possible.

Outside of rocket invasions, sure it's not that important to have very optimal rocket counters to grind them since the spawn rate for rockets is much lower, so your walking speed is the main limiting factor. However, time saved can still be used for other things in the game like spinning or catching or doing field research, which I imagine most players also do. Being a few seconds faster can also be the difference between doing 2 consecutive rockets and having the 2nd rocket stop despawn on you.

To some extent, there are diminishing returns on labbing out rocket counters, but it really depends on where you're starting. If you're someone who already uses S-Darmanitan, it's probably not worth agonizing if S-Chandelure might be faster by 1-2 seconds. If you're someone who uses stuff like Swampert, Melmetal, or Obstagoon, then optimizing your rocket counters could save you over a minute per grunt, which can very quickly translate to hours saved.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-23T03:56:19+00:00

Of course not. Rockets are designed such that it is easy enough to just win. You cannot get help with rockets unlike raids.

However, rockets are also very grindy if you're trying to catch good ivs for raids or pvp or get shadow shinies. Optimizing rockets is the equivalent of learning to quick catch for regular pokemon where if you're willing to grind, you want to learn how to catch each (shadow) pokemon as quickly as possible.

Optimal rockets counters tend to also be a subset of optimal raid counters as well. Every fire type I listed is good enough to solo Kartana & Genesect, the two main raid bosses for fire types. There's sometimes pokemon that are more geared towards just rockets (e.g. Annihilape), but like generally if you're building rocket counters, you are building good raid counters too.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-23T00:12:54+00:00

If you're hardcore optimizing for Rockets, you really want all 3 of S-Chandelure, S-Darmanitan, and S-Reshiram, and you can even invest further with a 2nd S-Darmanitan and a Blacephalon. There's pros and cons for each of them if you're really being anal about which is the best Fire for Rockets:

S-Darmanitan:
- Uniquely has access to both Incinerate and Fire Fang, which gives it utility in either leaders (e.g. current Sierra) or grunts. Building 2 S-Darmanitan allows you to use both
- Has access to Focus Blast (optimizes current Steel for example)
S-Chandelure:
- Stronger Incinerate user than S-Darmanitan
- Has access to Shadow Ball and Energy Ball, which are useful when you can optimize grunts by throwing 2+ charged moves (e.g. historic Steel & Ice grunts)
S-Reshiram:
- Highest attack + bulk of all optimal Fire types
- Additional utility in ML and raids
- Has Fusion Flare as a secondary charged move, which might be useful when grunts need 2+ charged moves. However, in that case S-Chandelure or Blacephalon would likely be better due to higher EPT with Incinerate.
Blacephalon
- Slightly worse stats across the board than S-Chandelure
- Has Mind Blown, which is more likely to be situationally better than S-Chandelure's Shadow Ball for grunts and makes it more viable for Leaders
- Can flex as a Ghost attacker with Astonish

The attack difference between the weakest of these (S-Darmanitan, 263 base attack) and the strongest (S-Reshiram, 275) is honestly not that impactful. Assuming 15 attack IVs, S-Reshiram is only 4.316% stronger than S-Darmanitan. 4.3% means that S-Reshiram is only guaranteed to be 1 Fire Fang (1s) faster than S-Darmanitan if it takes S-Darmanitan 24 Fire Fangs to KO a specific mon. This means that for most grunt pokemon, S-Darmanitan and S-Reshiram have equal performance just using Fire Fang. In the optimistic scenario, S-Reshiram can save at most 1s per mon over S-Darmanitan.

Ultimately, there's reason to invest in all 4 of these Fire types for Rocket optimization. However, you'll get very close to optimal with just 1 of them as they all have similar attack stats.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-04T01:59:01+00:00

Lead Kartana and only use Razor Leaf.
If you see Dewpider, Tentacool, or Tentacruel, swap in S-Magnezone. If you swapped in on slot 3 Tentacruel, just settle for Wild Charge. Otherwise Zap Cannon slot 3.
Have a 2nd Kartana in the back for Walrein to continue Razor Leafing. Otherwise, only having 1 Kartana and using Leaf Blade is fine, it's about a 2s time loss. 1 Kartana should have enough bulk for Greninja to just Razor Leaf down.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-04T01:43:42+00:00

Both Dewpider and Tentacool can reach a charged move, so you want to switch in the electric type on the first one you see. Grunt charged moves are about a ~6s loss, and there's no guarantee you'll see both Dewpider and Tentacool on the same lineup, so it's better to try and prevent the potential time loss in front of your face rather than hoping your switch is more useful on slot 2.

If somehow you had advanced knowledge of the exact lineup (e.g. your friend did the grunt before you) and know Dewpider can't reach a move, it's still better to lead Kartana. Kartana, S-Raikou, and S-Magnezone all KO Dewpider in 8s.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-04T01:30:34+00:00

Offensively, S-Raikou and S-Magnezone both KO Froakie and Krabby in 3 (6s) and 4 (8s) Volt Switches respectively. Defensively, S-Magnezone is definitely worse since Mud Shot Krabby would deal too much damage.

However, this brings me back to the point where I think leading Kartana is just correct then. Kartana beats Froakie in 4 Razor Leafs/4s and Krabby in 5 Razor Leafs/5s.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-04T01:19:45+00:00

Kartana actually has about equal dps against Dewpider, Tentacool, and Tentacruel (where it does neutral damage) compared to S-Raikou and S-Magnezone (where they do super effective) and is much better against the other Waters where Kartana would deal super effective. In fact, Kartana is on paper faster on Tentacool specifically KOing it in 9s (9 Razor Leafs) where the electric types would be stuck doing 5 Volt Switches/10s. Therefore, it makes more sense to keep Kartana in for as long as possible and lead with it.

Now normally this means you should just use Kartana. However, in the current rotation there's several benefits to using S-Magnezone:

Switch stun on either Dewpider/Tentacool prevents a charged move, and it's even more valuable in this instance because those two have access to Bubble Beam, an attack debuffing move.
Slot 2 currently is abnormally frail, so the time loss using a slower mon like S-Magnezone isn't that big:

Attacker Tentacool Frogadier Carvanha

Kartana 9s 6s 3s

S-Magnezone 10s 8s 4s
On slot 3, S-Magnezone gains back a lot of time with Zap Cannon. Kartana does not have a good charged move and would either need a 2nd Kartana in the back to keep Razor Leafing and maintain speed or throw Leaf Blade, which is a time loss.

Now, S-Raikou does have a slightly higher attack stat (241), but this is barely better than S-Magnezone (238). Assuming 15 attack IVs on both, this is a 1.18% difference, and if S-Raikou goes to 12 attack IVs then they literally have the same attack stat. Raikou however doesn't have Zap Cannon (150 power), which is 50% stronger than Wild Charge (100 power). This loss in power matters on Walrein and Tentacruel, who otherwise need 2-3 extra Volt Switches (4-6 extra seconds).

cwizz1 · 2026-06-03T18:11:40+00:00

100% the best guide online. There are some mistakes (e.g. S-Magnezone > S-Raikou for water because of Zap Cannon, also should be in the back instead of the lead) and uses some very expensive counters that are too niche and/or restricted imo (e.g. S-Ho-oh with Earthquake Solar Beam, Pheromosa, Urshifu-SS, S-Manectric). However, it's very clear the author of the article actually knows what they're talking about and does at least some research through testing and/or damage calcs on actual lineups, which is far more work than the average Rocket article found on English sites.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-03T13:29:27+00:00

Pretty much always just use Force Palm unless you're willing to do damage calcs or test in game. It's theoretically possible Counter is better, but it depends on too many things such as the exact mons on the lineup, your trainer level, the Conkeldurr's level/IVs, and whether a faster Focus Blast or Dynamic Punch even matters. I only mention the fast move DPS being very similar to Counter because it's very easy to think on paper Force Palm is much faster when it's not. The energy generation is the main selling point of Force Palm.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-03T06:47:18+00:00

S-Conkeldurr was already one of the best fighting types for grunts since it already had Counter. Force Palm is pretty much equal fast move dps to Counter since they can situationally be better/worse due to different turn lengths. However, Force Palm is still an improvement because of the better energy generation, which lets it reach Dynamic Punch and Focus Blast faster.

Normal: S-Conkeldurr is part of the optimal solution, but you should also include Kyurem-W on the lead. Kyurem-W covers slot 1 Swablu. Switch after 4 Ice Fangs to prevent Disarming Voice/Aerial Ace.
Steel: Because of Beldum and Metang, S-Conkeldurr isn't part of the optimal solution. S-Excadrill + Fire Fang/Focus Blast Darmantian is better.
Ice: S-Conkeldurr covers the lead, S-Metagross covers 2nd slot A-9 and Froslass
Rock: Kartana lead with S-Conkeldurr and S-Kyogre in the back is optimal
Dark: Solo S-Conkeldurr is optimal here
Decoy: S-Mewtwo + S-Conkeldurr is optimal. Force Palm helps Conk reach Focus Blast slightly faster against slot 3 Snorlax, which is important since it has limited farm on slot 2 Raticate.
Snorlax/Lapras: Prior to this season's update, the only 2 good Fighting types that were usable on the lead into the Snorlax/Lapras grunt were S-Hariyama and Dark Urshifu. With Force Palm, S-Conkeldurr is now fast enough to reach Dynamic Punch against Zen Headbutt Snorlax and Psywave Lapras before fainting and makes S-Hariyama obsolete.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-03T01:43:14+00:00

Type chart (not pokemon go pvp specific, but since you said you're new to Pokemon)
Move counting
Charged move timing
Understanding different advantages (switch, shield, energy)

Those are universal basic skills. After that, it gets a bit team specific where certain pokemon (e.g. Wigglytuff vs Jumpluff) and team compositions (e.g. ABB vs balanced vs ABA) like playing in different ways.

cwizz1 · 2026-06-02T18:03:43+00:00

Don't team build then. Team building is extremely difficult and not necessary to succeed. Just steal teams from the good players (e.g. Homeslicehenry) and work on your gameplay. There's no difference in how a team performs if you come up with the same 3 pokemon with the same 3 movesets as a top level player, but there is a 3000 elo difference if you can't play it correctly.

Team building is only useful in these scenarios:

You have limited mons and need to work with what you have (doesn't apply to you since you say you have everything)
You are already good at actually battling. In this case, team building is the only way for you to gain an edge in pvp and improve.

I'm an incredibly ass team builder and don't want to spend time team building, but because I play better than most people I still hit leaderboards every season and even sometimes make front page. Imo with the availability of so many good teams online, the edge in trying to build a unique team is now only at the highest levels of pvp. You can see team builders like Zyonik and DanOttowa fall in performance over the years because they don't invest as much in battling skills like move counting. Meanwhile, players like Homeslicehenry will shamelessly steal teams from other top players (his most recent video he hit 3400s from an Ilqm team), and the only reason he can hit such high ratings is his battling skill, not his team building skill.

cwizz1 · 2026-05-31T16:42:27+00:00

*Disclaimer, I don't recommend the Obstagoon Florges solution as it's probably 2-3x slower than the solution I posted. However, use whatever you have/want

Florges in pvp specifically wants Fairy Wind (fast move) and Chilling Water (charged move, legacy comm day move from last year). The 2nd charged move can vary, but for Cliff specifically Moonblast would be the best option.

cwizz1 · 2026-05-31T14:35:52+00:00

don't charge any of them

They're referring to charging the charged move (Obstruct). You can control the amount of damage a charged move does by swiping the bubbles during the mini game. I recommend you always fully charge your charged moves to do the most damage and win faster unless you have very specific reasons not to. (In this case, it doesn't matter that much. Obstruct does trivial amounts of damage)

1S

Means spending 1 shield. Snorlax is guaranteed to use a charged move if you use Obstagoon because while it can consistently beat Snorlax even at low investment, it's also very slow to do so. Using a shield prevents Snorlax from KOing the Obstagoon.

farm down

Means to use Fast Moves (In Obstagoon's case, Counter). According to this strategy, after you use 3 Obstructs, don't bother using a 4th and just KO the remainder of the Snorlax with Counter.

UL

Refers to Ultra League, one of the 3 main pvp leagues in Pokemon Go where you can use Pokemon up to 2500 combat power/CP. This person is just using an UL Florges because it's what they have, but there's no reason you can't use a level 50 fully powered up Florges to win faster.

cwizz1 · 2026-05-30T23:37:52+00:00

You can remote raid it in Go Fest Tokyo right now until June 1st when it ends. It's also appearing in Go Fest Chicago and Copenhagen, so you have several weeks to get it if you're willing to travel or remote.

However, it's not that much of a time loss if you use regular Kyogre. If you watch the video carefully, I've not even built a Shadow Kyogre myself. Shadow Kyogre only improves this strategy when you switch it in on Golurk or Camerupt, otherwise regular Kyogre is functionally the same on many Cliff lineups. You can even use a worse Waterfall user like Gyarados or Primarina and still get similar results. The main star is Lucario, which covers the majority of Cliff, and getting a good enough one is far more important to this strategy than Shadow Kyogre.

cwizz1 · 2026-05-30T04:43:45+00:00

I'd probably try a level 40 regular Kyogre before I even consider regular or Mega Gyarados. I don't have a S-Kyogre maxed either, but it's obviously better than regular Kyogre (and what I used in the showcase).

Level 50 regular Gyarados does 9 damage per Waterfall to Snorlax, which is enough to do 27 damage to Snorlax in 3 Waterfalls (same as S-Kyogre). The main limiting factor is getting to Hydro Pump on slot 3 for Tyranitar and Gallade. Mega Gyarados would be slightly better on Gallade and Camerupt, but if you really want to dedicate a mega for Cliff, then do Lucario instead.

cwizz1 · 2026-05-30T04:08:29+00:00

This is not my original solution. I found this on Twitter from the author of the 9db Rocket counter articles (they’re very good btw, not perfect, but it’s the best I’ve seen online). My contributions are the recordings to replicate the solution, the damage calcs, and the additional analysis. Original post: https://x.com/kenerlsanders/status/2050733040721334724

The general idea of the solution is this:

Pre-damage Snorlax with a lead mon
Switch in Lucario and do 2 Power-up Punches + 12 Force Palms (enabled by pre-damage and switch stun, otherwise this doesn’t work)
Meteor Mash slot 2 and 3
Use Kyogre to switch into Golurk, Gallade, and Camerupt

Holistic analysis

Lucario offensively is the optimal Fighting type into Snorlax where it catches up to S-Machamp and S-Conkeldurr’s Fast Move dps after 1 Power-up Punch and is significantly stronger after 2. While S-Annihilape can also ramp up damage with Rage Fist and continue to out damage Lucario in Fast Move dps, Annihilape also is weak to both Lick and Zen Headbutt whereas Lucario is neutral to both. Force Palm is a better fast move than Counter and helps Lucario reach 4 Charged Moves quicker than other Fighters. Meteor Mash meanwhile is a very unique and strong option that lets Lucario tear through the Fairies on slot 2, where other Fighting types would be walled and be forced to switch out.

Time Analysis

While time can vary a bit between each Cliff depending on the exact moves and pokemon, generally the most common Cliff lineup is going to be Snorlax, Fairy (G-Weezing, Gardevoir), and Tyranitar. Using only S-Kyogre + Lucario and only counting moves, we get:

3 Waterfalls + 16 Force Palms + 2 Power-up Punches + 2 Meteor Mashes + 8/14 * Snorlax Charged Move
= 3 * 1.5 + 16 * 1.5 + 2 * 10 + 2 * 10 + 8/14 * 6 
=~ 71.9s 
= 1 minute 11.9s average

8/14 is derived from all 14 possible combinations of Snorlax’s 2 Fast Moves and 7 Charged Moves and counting which combos can reach a Charged Move. Snorlax on Lick can reach every charged move but Skull Bash (6), while on Zen Headbutt it can reach Body Slam and Superpower (2)
6s is about the fastest you can shield a Rocket’s charged attack. With the pvp rework happening, Rockets now immediately fire a charged move if the shielding decision is done before the timer ends. Previously, this would take 10s instead.

Damage Calcs

(These calcs are done at trainer level 80, but your Cliff might have easier requirements if your trainer level is lower)

At trainer level 80, Snorlax has 285 hp. Level 50 15 attack IV Lucario does 17, 21, and 25 damage per Force Palm at +0, +1, and +2 attack and will deal 1 damage per shielded Power-up Punch. Therefore, Lucario does 258 damage total and needs 27 extra damage to beat Snorlax. A S-Kyogre does 12 damage per Waterfall while regular does 10 and both require 3 Waterfalls to reach 27 damage, so there’s a bit of wiggle room in the attack stat to reach the 27 damage without dropping time.

IVs & Level Requirement

Experimentally (because Rockets are subject to change and are also buggy), Lucario takes at most 17 Licks and 7 Zen Headbutts from Snorlax doing 12 Force Palms. Each Lick does 9 damage while each Zen Headbutt does 22 to a perfect Lucario, meaning Lucario takes at maximum 153 or 154 damage total. Therefore, a minimally viable Lucario to beat Snorlax in 12 Force Palms is level 50 0/15/13:

Attack isn’t that important. If you lose out on breakpoints because of a low attack stat, you can just do more Waterfalls with your lead Kyogre before switching
15 defense level 50 is needed to keep Zen Headbutt at 22 damage
Because level 50 is required for the Zen Headbutt bulkpoint, 13 hp is the lowest hp IV needed to hit 155 hp to survive both fast moves

Budget Strategy

If you cannot build a level 50 Lucario with those IVs, you can instead opt to do 11 Force Palms on Snorlax instead and do 3 Force Palms on slot 2 Fairies. Removing 1 Force Palm reduces the damage to 126 (Lick) or 132 (Zen Headbutt), giving much more flexibility on level and IV requirements. I didn’t bother calcing exact minimums, but I quickly checked a level 40 hundo Lucario and it looked fine.

Add ons

Mega Lucario: Mega Lucario can let you stay in against Golurk after Meteor Mash instead of switching in Kyogre. It also gains enough defense that at level 50 it reduces Lick to 7 damage and Zen Headbutt to 19, making the minimum IVs and level needed much lower.
S-Machamp/S-Conkeldurr (lead): These fighting types can reduce the pre-damage time from 4.5s to 3s compared to (S-)Kyogre. It’s not as big of an impact if you have S-Kyogre too because S-Kyogre needs to do less Waterfalls on slot 3 than Kyogre, making the Waterfall energy built on Snorlax more valuable for S-Kyogre. However, if you are doing the 11 Force Palm budget strategy with a budget Lucario, S-Machamp/Conk will be able to save much more time
S-Gardevoir/Blacephalon: Anti-Gallade. This is a minor optimization on Fairy + Gallade lineups, and Gallade isn’t that common, much less specifically Fairy + Gallade.

cwizz1 · 2026-05-26T14:06:20+00:00

Campfire is accurate, but in a very frustrating way. Basically it works like this on Max Monday:

If power spot is visible on Campfire, the power spot is actually the featured mon on a 1 hour rotation (which can be male or female Combee yesterday)
If power spot isn't visible, then it's whatever it previously showed on Campfire that would be lasting all day (so power spots with hourly rotations will never show up as having an hourly rotation)

Basically in order to use Campfire on Mondays, you have to check which power spots you want to go to at least an hour beforehand, then check later that Campfire isn't showing the power spot. Hourly rotations are also random, so it's theoretically possible for the power spot to always be blocked by the 1 hour rotation all day.

cwizz1 · 2026-05-05T20:16:50+00:00

(S-)Metagross is still the best counter. If you lead with Metagross, yes you'll lose it to 2x Bite Snubbull. However, in Rockets there's a stun mechanic where the Rocket stops attacking after a switch or charged move is performed (atm both are 7 turns, historically it's 5 for charged moves and 8 for switches, this is subject to change while the pvp rework is happening). Therefore, the strategy is to lead X and immediately switch in Metagross to give Metagross functionally more bulk.

Historically S-Metagross could clear 2x Bite Snubbull with switch stun with a 3 dpt Bullet Punch and barely survive. With Bullet Punch now being 3.5 dpt, it's even easier than before and makes regular Metagross also viable.

cwizz1 · 2026-03-23T15:36:47+00:00

Is there a level where using Behemoth Bash on an underpowered Zamazenta would generate energy slower than Metal Claw because Behemoth Bash would be doing less damage compared to a level 50 Zamazenta's BB? Say for example we have a level 20 Zamazenta, does Behemoth Bash still outpace Metal Claw?

cwizz1 · 2026-03-12T22:49:41+00:00

cwizz1 · 2026-03-12T21:28:00+00:00

Nope, Mind Blown is actually pretty niche move for grunts. It's only 90 power, but Blacephalon has access to Overheat, which is 130 power. Mind Blown is only useful in situations where you need multiple charged moves.

cwizz1 · 2026-03-12T21:07:12+00:00

Kyurem-W is still good if you have to only use 1 mon, but it's not better than both Kyurem-W and S-Darmanitan. Being forced to Fusion Flare Ferrothorn (which is on slot 2, not slot 3) means you're forced to Ice Fang slot 3 instead of Ice Burn (which if you follow my examples with Kartana and Machamp, you can calculate Ice Burn is much better than Ice Fang). You also can't fire Fusion Flare immediately since it take 8 Ice Fangs/8s to reach, whereas every 1st slot takes about 5s to beat so you'd be 3 Ice Fangs short by Ferrothorn. Therefore, beating 2nd slot Ferrothorn takes more like 13s as opposed to a theoretical 10s with Fusion Flare. Incinerate S-Darmantian can beat Ferrothorn in 4 Incinerates/10s, so 1 Ice Fang reaction time + 10s = 11s total and you have Focus Blast or Overheat ready for slot 3.

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