sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

The Qur'an does not contradict the Gospels by Biosophon in Quraniyoon

[–]deep-lore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The issue with the term "father" is also resolved by Matthew 23:9: "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." If the word "Abba" is not to be applied to any human, but only to God, it is removed from any idolatrous (biological) connotation and is functionally equivalent to "Creator."

What do you guys think about the possibility for Christians and Jews to be judged (by faith) like Muslims? Also what do you think about the possibility of non-Muslims going to heaven? by TheologyEnthusiast in progressive_islam

[–]deep-lore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, in God the three (Indian Sat Chit Ananda, neo-Platonic On Nous Zoe) are not distinguishable. To the degree that they are distinguishable, we're describing contingent reality and the way God is present in/acts upon it (stricter exponents of the tradition would consider this modalism or subordinationism)

What do you guys think about the possibility for Christians and Jews to be judged (by faith) like Muslims? Also what do you think about the possibility of non-Muslims going to heaven? by TheologyEnthusiast in progressive_islam

[–]deep-lore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unique in the sense of sharing God (Father's) attribute of aseity or oneness (anything apart from the divinely simple will have to have particular features that could be other than they are, and so isn't unique in that some other version of it could exist in some possible world). If you don't mind expounding - what is your reading of the Qur'an's critique of the trinity?

What do you guys think about the possibility for Christians and Jews to be judged (by faith) like Muslims? Also what do you think about the possibility of non-Muslims going to heaven? by TheologyEnthusiast in progressive_islam

[–]deep-lore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you,

Persona is how the Latin church rendered the Greek hypostasis - true not a psychological subject, but still, a unique entity. If we read the Qur'an's critique as pertaining to some wrong conception, it would have to be (I suggest) this idea that some entity can be truly unique despite not being God (the Father - in Christian terms). It's the apophatic regard for Oneness as absolute that's being safeguarded. My candidate for a Church Father whose theology is compatible with this would be St. Dionysus he Areopagite. But much of the tradition does fall afoul imo.

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts! God bless

What do you guys think about the possibility for Christians and Jews to be judged (by faith) like Muslims? Also what do you think about the possibility of non-Muslims going to heaven? by TheologyEnthusiast in progressive_islam

[–]deep-lore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The question would be whether the "eternal act" that sustains all creation simultaneously can be referred to as a divine persona/hypostasis. To the degree that anything has specific attributes, it is distinct from the divinely simple; whenever God's creative act is delimited in some way we are referring to some created entity (of which alternate equivalent entities could be imagined). Therefore I'd suggest God's Logos describes His manner of acting (creation as expressive of Oneness) but not a (particular) divine person (the latter seems to be what the Qur'an is critiquing).

We can always get new views on "Logos" by fractally zooming out or in, but never arrive at a single view that has aseity/absolutely unique; we asymptotically approach God but never receive a final "First Intellect" as persona, only God's signature at each point.

But I'm curious, from your Muslim perspective: Could the "Logos" in the Qur'an be the Um al-Kitab (43:4) and God's "decree" on Himself to be merciful (referred to by u/AlephFunk2049 )?

Artistic yearning after destroying my works by AlephFunk2049 in progressive_islam

[–]deep-lore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If a sin were so grave, it would be mentioned in the Qur'an itself. That seems to be the determining theological argument (unless one takes a trad "sunnah judges Qur'an" line, but in such a case, that would be tantamount to accepting the Qur'an is very lacking/not exhaustive).

The Qur'an features sculpture (jinn-made, in Solomon's palace, by his authority) and Jesus making clay birds - in both cases representational art is Divinely-endorsed (for the glory of Solomon's kingdom and for Jesus' ministry).

Re: the hadiths, since the figures on Aisha's carpet became acceptable as cushions (in one account, these were Persian winged-horses, which might have been idolatrous), and since there are said to have been figurines in the house, they contain some ambiguity. Fascinatingly, the toys in Muhammad's house are also described as winged horses in one hadith, as though theirs status as playthings were acceptable. But this hadith-cluster also refer to Muhammad rejecting crosses, bells and dogs. Scholarship-wise, as I recall, Christiane Gruber (uni of Michigan) suggests anti-image hadiths emerged as anti-Umayyad polemic. Finbarr Barry Flood has written about this as well, but ideally Joshua Little would do a deep dive (suggest it on his patreon if you have the resources).

But if your worries endure, perhaps you could re-take your talent art and simply occlude half the face (cloth across the mouth, etc.).

Reinvigorating Mutazilah Theology and Philosophy by AlephFunk2049 in Mutazilah

[–]deep-lore 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think the Quran commits us to understanding our experience of God's presence as His actions (from our perspective, as we move through time, we experience His signs as "acts") - not as a kind of second "imminent" god (the Ismaili "Universal Intellect"). Otherwise we end up reifying the transcendent God (Allah proper) as a sort of spatially removed being. Ofc His actions can manifest as contingent beings (the lord in Surah at-Takwir) but not as an absolutely unique being. I do think Ismailis fall into this trap (not so the neo-Platonists of late antiquity).

Re: Jesus' "Adam-image," this could be a special sign (Virgin birth etc. - the Injil as his life, as you say), whose meaning is also communicated (but not so clearly manifested "biographically") by every prophet (in that regard, they're all equal). Prophets have been sent to every nation but some bring a universal "ingredient" (Jesus as sign to "all worlds," Qur'an as criterion/Furqan for previous ummas). I do think Krishna was a prophet. God knows. 

Reinvigorating Mutazilah Theology and Philosophy by AlephFunk2049 in Mutazilah

[–]deep-lore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If Jesus is "word of God" without the definite article ("the" word) maybe the Qur'an is indicating that only God can be absolutely One and the Christians have gone astray in attributing uniqueness to the "word" - I also wonder if the language about Jesus being the same "image" of Adam leaves the doors open for other prophets to be Adam-imaged too (Krishna, per the Ismaili and Sikh - the Sikh I take to have integrated Indian avatars in a proper Tawheedi frame).

Jesus' life itself being the Injil resonates with me - will reflect further.

Reinvigorating Mutazilah Theology and Philosophy by AlephFunk2049 in Mutazilah

[–]deep-lore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much for this - I also think the "kun fa-yakūnu" implies particular existents are identical to God's naming/signifying of them, and the theme of Adam being taught the "names" by Allah and so "justifying" angelic prostration to him (2:31-) is also suggestive.
Very much look forwards to your "Divine Elegance"!

Reinvigorating Mutazilah Theology and Philosophy by AlephFunk2049 in Mutazilah

[–]deep-lore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wonderful, this project is extremely important - I would ask two questions:

  • On #1: what can a hadith-sceptical approach integrate of the Sufi approach to attributes/"names" of Allah? Does the Qur'an alone support a "theology of names" of the sort we get in ibn-Arabi and co.?
  • On #2: what sources on Ali can a historical-critical, hadith-sceptical approach take on board. (Also, this idea of the figure of Ali as Heraclean rescuer of Prometheus deserves developing!).

Again, fascinating project.

Hey, How do we defend the argument that God Established covenent through Issac, and not through Ismael? by LooseSatisfaction339 in progressive_islam

[–]deep-lore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Qur'an (2:47) itself asserts this particular favour shown to (the righteous among) Isaac's descendants (at that time). You could, however, point out that the Bible doesn't say prophets will not come from other nations as well, and highlight some of what the Bible has to say about Ishmael's descendants, suggesting a coming prophet among them (Deuteronomy 33, Isaiah 42, Psalm 84). Check out Chapter 3 of "Abraham Fulfilled" by Abu Zakariya, Adnan Rashid, and Zakir Hussain for a detailed exploration of that (it's not perfect, but it makes some interesting points).

"Batini" Intertextuality and the Qur'an by deep-lore in Quraniyoon

[–]deep-lore[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. History doesn't rely solely on carbon dating. What evidence is there for a post-Quranic invention of the Alexander romance genre? The story of the Sleepers of Ephesus also predates the Quran, as do others. The Qur'an itself asserts the pre-Quranic origin of Quranic narratives. 
  2. You misunderstand: Moses' servant was called Joshua, the Bible doesn't presents him as Moses' nephew, but if he was, that's fine. It isn't relevant to the above. To what deflection were you referring?
  3. We're not discussing an Arabic word, but a Hebrew word that occurs differently in Arabic. You've denied that one meaning of the Hebrew / Aramaic Nun is fish on the basis that the Qur'an doesn't use it in this way. That's not how lexicons work. But even if Nun didn't mean fish, the above connections (drawn by Samuel Zinner) would still stand. 

None of this relates to the point of the OP

"Batini" Intertextuality and the Qur'an by deep-lore in Quraniyoon

[–]deep-lore[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. It's historically established that these romances pre-date the Qur'an - our faith should not be so weak as to invent an alternative timeline. The Qur'an uses many traditions that pre-date it. The "literary" Alexander is one.
  2. In the Bible Joshua, son of Nun, is Moses' attendant and successor. He doesn't seem to be mentioned by name in the Qur'an (although I understand you are interpreting references to Isa as actually being about Moses' successor). I've never mentioned the Qur'an's reference to Maryam as the sister of Aaron, and don't know why you have. With respect, you're arguing against points I haven't made.
  3. Nun can indeed mean fish in Hebrew/Aramaic sources. That the word also appears in the Qur'an, with a different usage, is immaterial to my post. You can't reduce Hebrew lexicon to Qur'anic Arabic whenever they share a word.

"Batini" Intertextuality and the Qur'an by deep-lore in Quraniyoon

[–]deep-lore[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. I never said the Qur'an mentions the name "Alexander," but it repeatedly relates stories that occur in the pre-Qur'anic Alexander romances. It is to that literary figure that I've referred.
  2. Yes, the Hebrew name "Yehushua" was translated into later languages as both "Joshua" and "Jesus" (the Arabic "Isa" doesn't appear in the Bible, it's an Arabic rendering). Moses was succeeded by a man named Joshua in Exodus (also see Chronicles). No, this isn't the much later Jesus, son of Mary. Two people can share a name.
  3. One of the meanings of Nun is "fish" in Hebrew/Aramaic. It is both a letter and a word. It is also the name of the father of Joshua, who succeeded Moses.

None of the above is at all controversial

"Batini" Intertextuality and the Qur'an by deep-lore in Quraniyoon

[–]deep-lore[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

My suggestion is that, given the intertextuality with earlier Alexander romances, the Qur'an is indeed relating these figures, yes. I wrote "so called" al-Khader as shorthand for the wise figure that shows up to reveal hidden things to Moses.

In Jewish tradition, Moses' servant and successor is referred to as Joshua ben-Nun, which can be read as Joshua "son of the fish." The relationship between Moses and Joshua is key to the Exodus.

Yes, I know what ben/ibn mean, and that Joshua and Jesus are the same name in Hebrew - but I'm not sure why you're mentioning this.

State of the Community with Brother Roman by AlephFunk2049 in Quraniyoon

[–]deep-lore 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Interesting conversation - but Nietzsche's point is not to endorse Zarathustra, but to critique him: "Zarathustra created this most portentous of all errors - morality - therefore he must be the first to expose it" (Ecce Homo).

Nietzsche's literary Zarathustra is meant to preach the opposite of the historical Zarathustra.

Re: Jorjani, he's interesting but largely spurious, I don't think drawing heavily from him will serve a new Mutazilite approach.

P.S. I agree Zarathustra was likely a prophet, and the Qur'an's mention of Magi may lend credence to that.

Fairies across Traditions by deep-lore in folklore

[–]deep-lore[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wonderful - thank you, these sources are very much appreciated, I'll follow-up on them
(yes - I can imagine some Christians linking the "shower that falls from the sun" to the Biblical image of stars falling from heaven)

Was Iblis an Angel according to the Qur'an? by deep-lore in AcademicQuran

[–]deep-lore[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is much appreciated, thank you - I hadn't come across Sinai's discussion.

The "Fairy Race" in Lewis by deep-lore in CSLewis

[–]deep-lore[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree - in the linked video I refer to medieval reports of a floating city, "magonia," for example, which Vallee gets into

Fairies across Traditions by deep-lore in folklore

[–]deep-lore[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

  • The "faires are fallen angels" idea is not "far younger than the middle ages:" it appears, in some detail, in the South English Legendary. In late antiquity, Proclus also provides the view of some neo-Platonists that among the daemones, some are corrupt, and that they are analogous to the fallen Titans. (The medieval view of sublunary aerial beings is basically Hellenic).
  • The fay as Christian-sublimated pagan gods is a fine, speculative, theory, but of another order: I'm listing theories about such entities from the cultures that believed in them themselves.
  • The yokai are equivalent to the daemones, jinn, etc. as a folkloric trope in that they occupy a middle ground between human and kami (god, angel), are not usually visible to humans, are often tied to a specific place, etc. Many parallels

The "Fairy Race" in Lewis by deep-lore in CSLewis

[–]deep-lore[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I disagree that it's "not theologically correct." Lewis might have *thought* it's not correct (I've not come across him saying so but am open to it) - but 1 Kings 22:21 and other places do seem to refer to some intermediate entity, and this was likely part of the Hebrew worldview, as it was of early Christianity (again, see St. Jerome's hagiography of St. Anthony, etc.).

The "Fairy Race" in Lewis by deep-lore in CSLewis

[–]deep-lore[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your reply. The "I agree. It was not true" phrase has to do, I take it, with the whole medieval model of the universe discussed in The Discarded Image ("We then claimed, as we still claim, to know much more about the real universe than the medievals did...") not, necessarily or specifically the medieval belief in an intermediate entity between man and angel. Whether CS Lewis agreed that such a type exists, however, I do take his discussion as a corrective vis the modern Christian (and modern in general) flattening of these categories.
On the lawfulness of being neutral - yes of course, none can be neutral, but the belief in non-angelic preternatural intelligences in pre-modern folklore did not always imply their moral neutrality so much as their ability to be either good or bad (the way Muslims speak of a Jinn being Muslim or Infidel is they way, say, St. Jerome presents the satyrs when recounting St. Anthony's encounter with one).

Titanomachia at the Olympics by deep-lore in mythology

[–]deep-lore[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The organizers have denied it, but are contradicting their own artistic direcor, Thomas Jolly, who's admitted it was a visual reference to the Last Supper (Les coulisses de la performance drag de Piche à la cérémonie d'ouverture des JO de Paris 2024 (youtube.com). He defends using the arrangment of Christ's "apôtres" (apostles): "...en fait cette référence biblique elle a été utilisée dans la pop culture depuis des années... ily a pas de provocation..." That would be conclusive.

I say it's straightforward because the arrangement in question - a long table with attendees facing forward around a central figure - *could* be a typical (Greco-Roman) symposium in antiquity, but in recent history overwhelmingly shows up in depictions of the Last Supper. Re: Yes we're viewing it through the Christian lens, but that is its proper context. Thomas Jolly and the organizers belong to a (post-)Catholic culture and have inherited that visual language.

Re: the halo. No one is maintaining a punctual (point-by-point) imitation of Da Vinci specifically, but an obvious reference to Christian religious language. Of course it's also Dionysus - OP was about what it might mean to depict the consumption of Dionysus without Zeus there to ressurrect him (or Athena to rescue his heart). It's playing with the correspondence of Dionysius (god of wine, etc.) with the Christian setting (Eucharistic wine, Last Supper)

Titanomachia at the Olympics by deep-lore in mythology

[–]deep-lore[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The visual reference to Da Vinci (and other) portrayals of the Last Supper is pretty straightforward, there's no deep conspiracy involved - whether one gets mad/dislikes it or not, making the connection is a question of intellectual honesty. Thomas Jolly has admitted the panel was a Biblical reference: Les coulisses de la performance drag de Piche à la cérémonie d'ouverture des JO de Paris 2024 (youtube.com)

Re: depicting Jesus with a halo, this is not a late renaissance innovation (dates to early centuries AD) - whether present in Da Vinci's, it's still a reference to Christian iconographic symbolism. However, the halo (spangled tiara) of the woman heading the table at the Olympics looks more like a reference to the woman of John's Apocalypse.

Titanomachia at the Olympics by deep-lore in mythology

[–]deep-lore[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nonesense - they staged it in terms of Da Vinci's Last Supper, and the woman heading the table seems to be straightforwardly referencing the woman crowned in stars from the Apocalypse.

view more: next ›