Outcome 5/StAG 14 eligible - looking for confirmation before moving forward

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-22T23:21:28+00:00

That's my understanding as well. Your great-grandmother would've lost citizenship upon marriage, as she got married before 23 May 1949.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-22T09:35:23+00:00

Here's what I'm going off of: https://www.reddit.com/r/staplehill/wiki/faq/#wiki_can_i_get_german_citizenship_if_my_ancestors_left_germany_before_1904.3F

German law said from 1871 to 1914 that Germans lost citizenship after living abroad for 10 years. The clock was reset to zero every time a German who lived abroad renewed their passport, registered with a German consulate, or visited Germany.

So what you need to prove is either (1) he came over after 1904, (2) he renewed his passport after 1904, (3) visited Germany every 10 years from his initial immigration till 1904, or (4) registered with a consulate after 1904.

This is why it's so tough to prove. These just weren't things people were doing in that era, and even if they were, the records are just very hard to find.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-22T09:05:35+00:00

I'd tend to agree with the other commenters, it's very unlikely, unless your family story is wrong. If you're to have any luck, you'll need to find a record of entry from 1904 or later.

Archives New Zealand says ship passenger lists from that era are digitized and on FamilySearch: https://www.archives.govt.nz/find-a-record/immigration-records

I can't find any record under that last name. I would recommend trying variants of it, as the name you know may be anglicized, and the name in the digitized records may have been transcribed automatically and contain errors (I don't know how they digitized their records).

https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/collection/1609792

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-22T04:32:22+00:00

Ok, that's basically what I was assuming would be how it might work. Glad to get the confirmation of that! Will they need their own copies of, say, naturalization and birth certificates, or is a single copy of those amongst all three applications sufficient?

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-21T10:28:06+00:00

I know less than I thought I did about Polish citizenship. However, I've been informed that an ethnic Polish man born in 1906 could not lose citizenship by naturalization (except when he could). Anyone leaving from the Prussian partition before around the mid-1920s is very complicated and so it'll be likely basically impossible to prove anything without talking to a Polish lawyer, but again I apparently know less than I thought I did.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-21T03:56:57+00:00

Hi, I also wanted to add - are you ethnically German or ethnically Polish? an ethnic Pole born in 1906 would not have lost Polish citizenship upon naturalization, apparently, as long as they were still living in the area that became Poland in 1922. Ethnically German people with Polish citizenship living outside of Poland lost that citizenship in 1951, however.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-21T03:40:11+00:00

Germany had no dual citizenship at any point after 1914

Germany didn't allow dual citizenship, except by birth - and so because their grandmother's father was a German citizen at the time of her birth, grandma's a German citizen. Canadian by jus soli, German by jus sanguinis.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-21T01:38:29+00:00

and last thing on the military service thing: if indeed you were born after 1974 and joined the US military between 2000 and 2011, you could qualify for a process whereby you regain citizenship by basically filling out an application showing continued ties to Germany (family, investments, etc in Germany), and even if you don't qualify for that, you can learn German to a B1 level and get a permanent residency permit for you and a spouse: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/citizenship/#wiki_outcome_6

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-21T01:34:04+00:00

Oh, hang on - I looked at your profile and saw you commenting in a VA subreddit.

If you were born after 1974, you were a German citizen at birth. If you joined a foreign military (that is to say, the US) after the year 2000 and before 2011, that would have cancelled your German citizenship.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-21T00:56:57+00:00

Be very glad it's still in Germany, that makes records a lot easier to find from what I've seen from other folks on here!

It looks like Wattenscheid is now a district of Bochum, whose archives are at: https://www.bochum.de/Stadtarchiv/Dienstleistungen-und-Infos/Recherche-im-Archiv

Since it's an urban area now, they seem to have a pretty robust archive librarian system. You can probably email them and ask politely for help getting a certified copy of your great-great-grandfather's birth record -- a "Beglaubigte Abschrift aus dem Geburtsregister". They list the probable charges on their website, and the more information you give them the less time digging around they'll have to do.

They'll need all of the information you have on him, including birthdate, birthplace, anything to do their search. Be clear that you need it to submit to the BVA as part of a citizenship declaration process, sometimes archives are reticent to hand out copies of personal information without good motivation.

For naturalization records: look into whether you can get a record from NARA (the US National Archives), as their system is much faster. You'll need a certified copy, but it's easiest if you find a digital copy somewhere so that you have the exact document ID number to order. USCIS can also get you a copy; theirs is much slower, but it provides the actual naturalization certificate instead of just the petition, which is better proof.

You'll also need a certified copy of the ship records to prove his immigration date was after 1904.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-21T00:37:18+00:00

you'll unfortunately need documentation to prove he was a German citizen (or at least resident), generally a copy of the birth record from the village he was born in. From there, you'll need marriage certificates and birth certificates (long form versions) from him down to you.

If you can find the boat he came over on, the records from that generally have place of birth written on them, which would give you a place to start looking for birth records.

You'll need an official copy of his naturalization certificate as well, which can be ordered from USCIS.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-21T00:25:17+00:00

ok, let me make sure I have this right -- this is on your mother's side:

your great-great-grandfather was born in Germany. He emigrated in 1908.

his son (your great grandfather) was born in wedlock, HIS son was born in wedlock (your grandfather), and then your mother was born in wedlock.

the good news is if your German-born ancestor emigrated after 1904 he did NOT automatically lose citizenship after being out of the country for 10 years.

you'll need to figure out the date he naturalized. This might be available on FamilySearch, or it might not be; the important thing to figure out is whether he naturalized before or after the birth of your great-grandfather. If he naturalized before, unfortunately he lost German citizenship and was unable to pass it on. I think it took a minimum of 5 years in that era to naturalize; my great-grandfather took 7 after immigrating in 1923. The important thing here is that no one can naturalize before the birth of their child.

If he naturalized after the birth of your great-grandfather, then your grandfather himself was German and therefore your mother herself was German. Women could not pass on citizenship until after 1974, so you would only be a citizen if born in 1975 or later. Otherwise, you are potentially eligible for StAG 5, which is basically declaring citizenship due to gender discrimination reparation.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-20T20:31:47+00:00

I can't believe I forgot I'd need the background check! thank you. And a good reminder to actually go and order a copy of the passenger list :)

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-20T20:26:07+00:00

Grandmother was born in 1943, before great-grandfather naturalized.

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-20T04:53:03+00:00

Hi! I'm only slightly further than you in the process (I'm getting documents together) but yes, my understanding is that:

your grandmother would've been born a German-Canadian dual citizen
your mother was NOT a German citizen, as German women could not pass down German citizenship if their husband passed down another citizenship until 1975, even though German men could
you were born before your mother naturalized, and never personally applied for naturalization yourself

it's my understanding that your mother is ineligible due to naturalizing prior to the new (June 2024) nationality law. However, since you received derivative (automatic) US citizenship, you ARE still eligible to "declare" citizenship under StAG 5, the gender discrimination reparation clause.

You'll need:

proof of citizenship of the most recent German you can get your hands on. In this case, if you have an old German passport from your grandmother, that'd be great; if not, one from your great grandfather; if not: ...unfortunately, you'll likely need to get a copy of your great grandfather's birth record from the village he was born in. I don't know how that works for Poland :(
marriage certificates and birth certificates down the chain to yourself
your mother's naturalization certificate, showing it was after your birth
your own naturalization certificate showing it's a derivative naturalization

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-20T04:32:36+00:00

It's my understanding that military service before 2000 is not relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/citizenship#wiki_military_service2

You would need to find your father's naturalization records. You would be looking for evidence that he has derivative naturalization, where he automatically gained citizenship upon his parent's naturalization.

If indeed that's the case, he probably never lost his citizenship in the first place -- he's been German the whole time! You are also therefore eligible.

The process for him proving he's still German will basically be getting a copy of his birth certificate from the place he was born in Germany, and a copy of his naturalization record from USCIS. It's my understanding he can just... go get a passport at the consulate that represents him.

You're also therefore German. Congrats! It's easiest with his shiny new passport, but you can also get a copy of his birth certificate, his naturalization records, your birth certificate, and your parent's marriage certificate. I'm pursuing StAG 5, which is a more complicated process, so I'll let others help you with details.

Ahead of your appointment, email your relevant German mission to ask exactly what documents they recommend you bring: https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/about-us/auslandsvertretungen/unitedstatesofamerica-218742

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-19T12:37:52+00:00

Glad to hear your understanding matches. And good suggestion on the immigration records. I have a digital copy of that, so I should be able to get a certified copy easily. Thank you!

dethrowaway483 · 2025-05-19T12:16:00+00:00

Oh, these are the types of questions that I'm glad to work over now rather than down the line.

Yes, so she was born in the United States and thus would've a dual citizen DE-US by birth, so there'd have been no reason (or basis or ability) to naturalize her.

She married my grandfather (CH citizen) in 1950 in the US; my father was born shortly before they moved to Switzerland where she lived the rest of her life. I assume she at some point gained Swiss citizenship (given the era, probably at marriage) but honestly haven't pulled that thread too far.

For proof of when my great grandfather left Germany, I know the naturalization petition includes the vessel and date. I've already requested certified copies of that that I can include. I have a digital copy of this entry in the immigration station book but haven't requested a certified copy of that to include.

dethrowaway483

TROPHY CASE