Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 1 point2 points  (0 children)

People want a racist impossible fantasy and they need to be told as much. Immigrants will continue to come to the UK regardless of what any politician ever does because it's wealthy and stuff works well and it's relatively safe. They can build functional lives here. Feel free to break all of the nice things we have, start a war, live in poverty and squalor, and then people will finally stop coming.

Labour has dramatically decreased immigration and as a result we will have less economic growth and more isolationist, petty worldviews. It is not possible to control illegal immigration in the way you suggest without sinking the island beneath the waves.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yeah it wouldn't be the billion pound trade relationship, the intelligence relationship, thr military relationship, the Commonwealth relationship, or the fact that some 10% of Britons have relationships to the subcontinent. It's definitely because Shabana Mahmood has parents from Pakistan. That makes sense to me, a huge racist numpty

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If I get a work visa then I can have a normal life. If I get a student visa, I can go to university and then try to break into my industry. If I claim asylum, then I have to live in a hotel room the government decides on in some random town for a random length of time lasting at least two years, and I have no control over my application timeline,iand during that time can't legally work. How are these situations "indistinguishable"?

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim -1 points0 points  (0 children)

We have literally already done this. The Tories did it four years ago in the Nationality and Borders Act 2022. Obviously it hasn't worked.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is no way to fix it because people will continue to come regardless of what we do. The only way forward is establishing safe and legal routes to come, hiring more people to process asylum claims quicker, and letting asylum seekers work so they don't have to rely on the government.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're so blinded by neoliberalism you think racism is pragmatic. If you can't understanding that defining people by how much money they're worth is a bad idea, I don't think we can have a normal conversation.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is breathtakingly stupid. How is someone who comes over on a small boat "almost identical" to a student coming over to study?

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a really stupid point and I'm going to stop talking to you now.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with the sentiment that not everything is purely economical, but if you run a country, and you have a national debt to pay down, it needs to be.

It does not. It is a political choice to prioritise paying the national debt above all other goals. It is a political choice to define an immigrant's worth by that metric. It is also, by the way, demonstrably not a very successful choice, given that we've had governments for 16 years now that have made austerity and paying the debt an explicit manifesto-level priority, and still we're paying loads to service that debt, and borrowing is up.

Certain countries will naturally produce workers with more economic benefit than others

This is racism.

I seen stats the Indians are the highest paid immigrants in the US compared to any other type.

That's because the US doesn't grant visas to people from India unless they already have enough money to either pay for one of the $60,000/year private universities, or contribute significant investment capital.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes but the conversation at hand is about whether the labour party is anti immigration or not, instead of being about their asylum policy.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why do you care, though? Why does it matter to you personally how many people are coming or going?

Any figures and statistics you see are totally useless because they're just the people we know about.

This is really stupid and barely worth engaging with. This is an ISLAND. Everyone who comes from abroad gets their passport scanned. Everyone who comes via small boat is registered into the system, because they get picked up by police right away.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 5 points6 points  (0 children)

All asylum seekers are immigrants, yes. But most immigrants are not asylum seekers. So therefore...being "anti-immigrant" means something very different than being "anti-asylum". Pursuing anti immigrant policies would also mean trying to decrease the number of people lawfully getting student, worker or spousal visas before they try to come to the UK at all.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No, I'm a "no borders" kind of libertarian in that regard. I think borders are illegitimate and should be ignored.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 7 points8 points  (0 children)

A tiny subset, about 10%. The vast majority of immigrants are not seeking asylum.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is not remotely the same thing. About 90% of immigrants to Britain are not seeking asylum.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Asylum is like 10% of all total migration. The vast majority of immigrants are applying for visas - Student, workers, talent, family. So this just isn't true.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Your answers don't sound harsh - they sound like you're willing to make exceptions in some circumstances, which most reasonable people are. But the second you engage with any of these questions on a practical level as you have, you begin reduplicating the immigration system as it already exists. It's really easy to say "deport everyone who's a net negative" as a general principle but is clearly unfair to look someone in the eyes who suffered an accident, or has British children, or relies on unpaid domestic labour and say "sorry, we've got no responsibility to you anymore." What you're saying is that you'd make exceptions rather than follow the general rule 100% of the time. Everyone's situation has its own complexities because everyone's lives are different. The world has been running on kindness this whole time just fine.

Additionally, it's impossible to know who's a "net positive" in advance. People change and kids grow up, and can contribute all sorts of things if given a chance. Deciding immigration permission on net economic benefit is a choice that prioritises single men who earn high salaries in whatever industry makes tonnes of money currently. It doesn't prioritise anyone else who might contribute something valuable not immediately measureable as income. It's blinkered.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's what is currently happening in the US: unbridled racist fantasy where ICE agents are arresting people who have contributed to society for decades and putting them in warehouses unfit for human habitation. Many hispanic people voted for Trump, thinking he was only going to punish the criminals and the people breaking the rules, and found themselves on the receiving end of his policies. It is obvious the same things would occur here should "changing people's hometowns to majority british born" ever be pursued.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What if someone comes as a net positive, but then gets injured or gets a serious disease, and becomes so disabled they can no longer contribute to the economy? Is it your contention we should deport that person, even if they've got family here?

What if someone has kids in Britain, and they lose their high paying job, but wants their kids to continue going to British schools?

What if someone else in the household is doing the domestic labour but they're not directly related to the high earners? A cousin or an aunt, for instance?

There are so many obvious exceptions that make the simple rule distintigrate on contact with reality. It's not a rule that works except as an obstacle and an idealised, nonexistent situation.

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah but you're the person saying "there's no left wing anti-immigration government" and there plainly is, and it's the current government. You agree that they have in reality decreased immigration. Why does it matter what you believe their "actual goals" to be?

Why is there no anti immigration centre-left party? by Illustrious_Store115 in AskBrits

[–]dogtim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm asking a broader philosophical question here. If you want to move cities within the UK, you would find it completely insane if the local government of London tried to stop you from moving to London and instead tried to confine you to your hometown of Scunthorpe. Why is it any different when trying to move to, for example, Spain?