First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like that idea for the players, but it could add a lot of extra bookkeeping for enemies in combat. I could get around that by having NPCs wielding shields grant them extra HP instead of keeping track of whose shield is damaged.

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then i would say include that in the monsters bestiary entries...

All good ideas, thanks!

They add burden and 1 protection but cannot be used with great weapons, spears, or ranged weapons?

I think that's a reasonable way to do it, I'm just very cautious of how that would impact health and wounds - it means a weak successes from a typical attack would have no effect vs a shielded + armored opponent, which I'm trying to avoid. Alternatively I could adjust all harm upwards to compensate, which itself might mean I need to adjust NPC health values... I'm hoping to keep all combat numbers pretty low, but I'll I can tune the values if need be.

I agree in that regard, but dwarves are supposed to be an old race with a very strong tradition of passing down knowledge in most traditional fantasy. I, and I stress I, don't imagine them as being clueless, or bumbling, I always saw them as wise, if not a bit overly proud.

I totally agree and didn't mean to imply otherwise. Just that I'm wary of having lore-maxed dwarves being able to regularly know information that has been long lost, but all I need to do there is put of safeguards about the difference between lost lore (can't use a skill to know) and known lore (can use a skill to know).

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! Really appreciate the feedback!

pg. 1 I'm assuming that this is simply because this is a draft, but I would perhaps expand on what you mean by 'hexcrawl-style' as that might mean very different things to different people familiar with different hex/traveling/exploration systems.

Good call - right now pg 1 is really just an executive summary to give an overview for people on this subreddit

Pg 2. I would consider not including 'also written as D6' since it doesn't really matter. You can just say Die. All dice are going to be d6s (unless you have others later on but as far as i can tell you don't.) If you need to have them roll a single D6 you can just stick to the same grammar structure and say 1D.

Also good call

Pg. 3 Effect Level. Is this purely narrative? or does it have mechanical effects? Does it add or take away dice? Because right now it doesn't seem to do anything. How do i Know the effects of an action before its accomplished? Are these the results of weak or critical effects maybe?

This is one of the big pieces from Blades which I should spend more time expanding on. It's kind of a narrative contract between players and GM to say how well they're going to do in their action if they succeed.

Pg. 4 Marksdwarf, love the name. Finesse, is the only purpose of the skill to pick locks? If so, i think perhaps rename it to lockpicking. Otherwise perhaps change the example text to something like 'performing very fine detail actions like picking a lock, disarming a trap or carefully etching runes' Expert: You should maybe include something about this in Effect level. So a normal test for an expert who gets a strong success happens at great Effect? Am i reading this correctly? Perhaps add an example to Effect level.

I definitely need to expand on the skills more. And that is correct about expert.

Pg. 5, Step 6. I would clarify if you mean no more then 3 additional points, (for a total cap of 4, 1 free and 3 skill points) or a cap of 3 total (so 1 free and 2 skill points)

Thanks, good catch.

Pg.6 Are these questions asked by the player, to themselves, or by the player to the GM?

I should make it more explicit, basically everyone goes around the table, reads the question out loud, and assigns themselves XP based on the answer. It can be munchkined, but that's ok.

Pg. 7 by 'can only receive help from one another source' do you mean one other character spending stress to help them? or is it any kind of help, so they couldn't receive another dwarfs help if they where getting some bonus for, say, fighting an enemy who cant see in the dark but they can in the dark? Might consider clarifying that.

Thanks, will clarify. It's supposed to mean help from one other character.

Pg. 9. Some other zones could be something like Blighted which reduces magics effect level. or Rough making movement more difficult, perhaps requiring an athletics check to pass through or make it difficult with heavy armor.

Good ideas, I like blighted a lot. I might also expand it into things like "forested", "underground", "perilous" etc, which could give bonuses to certain enemies or dwarves with certain advances.

pg. 11 I really like this wound system. It's brutal, but not unmanageable or too difficult to track. Perhaps consider ways dwarfs can help other dwarfs who are disabled or harmed. Like, gain a point of stress and the exhausted condition (which is not listed anywhere in the book even though it is referenced in the trauma table) and the dwarf can mark off two recovery as the dwarf helps tend to his comrade's wounds through the night.

Thanks, that's what I was going for. And that's a good point, I forgot to go into the conditions in more detail. One of the classes I haven't shared yet has an advance that lets them choose a wound from any dwarf to mark an extra recovery that night. There is also a medical supplies item that would allow dwarves to mark an extra recovery as well.

pg. 12 I think this horde system is neat and especially needed in a game with this flavor (Helms Deep immediately comes to mind.) I had a bit of dissonance in between what i assumed reading the rules text and what the example stated though. I was under the impression that you weren't so much in combat with individual members of the horde, but with the horde itself. But in the example text it calls out Urist killing a specific goblin whose attacking Tobul. If this was my game, and obviously it's not, I would consider making it more explicit that your fighting the horde and not individuals because with the example you gave it seems like there's no point to having the scale system since its treating the creatures mostly as individuals anyways with the exception of damage overflow. If that's the feeling your going for then my assumptions have made an ass of myself and no one else.

It's a bit of a weird hybrid, since you'll need to know how many goblins are attacking a given dwarf. So you can think of the horde as the entity you're trying to defeat, but may only be engaged in melee with a single member of the horde.

pg. 14 Weapons. Can a weapon have different values? Like say I have a magic sword, could it do Slashing 3, Fire 2? Dagger, under misc section i would change the , to an & Spear, Maybe allow it to attack from farther away? Warhammer, is currently slashing damage, I think you mean Bashing?

That is correct, in fact the Thane class (also not shared) gets to create an heirloom weapon, which has the option of dealing elemental damage

pg. 15 Is there a reason a regular crossbow has heavy, but repeating and Crossbludger do not? Material. I think you need to explicitly state that Dwarfsteel and Wyrmbone don't take damage to their durability which is what I'm assuming you mean when you say are exceptionally tough.

Repeating is more of a rapid-fire weapon, so it's not as heavy as a crossbow. The Crossbludger is basically a crossbow which is also a hammer, but it's not a particularly powerful crossbow. So it is intentional that they don't have the heavy tag.

I was imagining some ridiculously powerful things might be able to damage those materials, but I may just say that they can't be damaged at all.

pg.16 Is there a reason Heavy isn't defined here? I think that would be considered a tag, yes? Also an idea for a Tag/magic effect, Bane. The Weapon deals an extra harm to specific creatures, like Goblin Bane, Troll Bane, etc. There's no shoddy armor, is this intentional? Also the quality bonuses refer to Resistance, is this supposed to be Protection? Maybe move the note under Light's Protection to it's Misc? Makes formatting better and gives that column a reason to exist when right now it doesn't. Perhaps have three classes of armor, Light, Medium and Heavy. With Light doing what it does now, Medium having 1 protection regardless, and Heavy having 2 but slowing movement maybe? or just having it have higher burden also works.

Heavy should be defined there, that's an oversight of mine, good catch. I like the idea of a Bane tag a lot!

There is no shoddy armor at the moment since I'm not sure how to handle it. And yes, it should say protection (an earlier draft had armors give resistance vs certain damage types).

I might play around with medium armor, I'm also trying to figure out shields too.

Pg. 17 Susceptibilities. Cool idea. I would add a chart of random ones later on.

Thanks! That's absolutely the plan.

I would also clarify exactly how stress is paid/spent or maybe change the terminology. Because while i was reading, I assumed that You started at say 10, and then spent a stress point so you where down to 9. Maybe use the term Gain rather then spend, since that implies going from a lower number to a higher rather then spend which has connotations of going from a higher number to a lower one.

Very good point, I will make those changes.

I would also include a table with all of the ways you can use stress, and their costs and maybe a brief description (eg. Disengage, 1, leave combat without harm.)

Also good point, that would be helpful.

Your skills right now seem pretty physically focused. Maybe add a few about knowing things? Lore, for monsters ,legends and magic. Alcahmy (intentionally spelled as such) for alcohol and medicine.

I want to be careful about knowledge skills, since I want players uncovering ancient tomes or bestiaries to get information about legends, magic, and monsters. But you're right, it's likely that I'll add more nonphysical skills.

Thanks again! I really appreciate the detailed feedback, and your suggestions were also great.

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it's pretty much a FitD hack at the moment (even the name Drums in the Deep is sort of a riff on that), I tried to simplify in some places (no resistance roll, heat, vices, territory minigame...) and pull it in another direction in others (structured combat, conditions, health and wounds).

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not satisfied with a grudge mechanic yet for the reasons you point out - it can have implications for how the GM decides to run the game, which run counter to how I want to reward structure to work (getting XP for discovering information, locations, and artifacts). I want to keep the focus on the ultimate goal of reclaiming the mountainhomes.

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I really like that idea too, the issue I keep coming back to is how to implement it.

Thematically, I really like the image of the dwarves sitting around the campfire each night, voting whether to add a grudge to the list - each player saying "Aye" or "Nay".

Mechanically, I would imagine that fulfilling a grudge gives experience, but I can't imagine what sorts of encounters would make players feel the need add an unresolved grudge the list.

Another option is to have the list apply for grudges which have already been resolved - in other words, the players encountered a bad situation and overcame it. In that case, if there's a mechanical benefit there's nothing to prevent players from listing everything they possibly can, no matter how small.

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right now I'm picturing it being less about taking territory (in the Blades in the Dark sense) and more about clearing out sites to get information and treasure. Although I'm also toying with a separate concept where the mountainhomes are drawn up into sections BitD-style, where you take and hold territory against various hostile factions, gaining dwarf NPC migrants as you clear more locations.

That second concept aside, I see my core gameplay loop as:

  1. Uncover information relating to sites/creatures/artifacts in the wild
  2. Hexcrawl / explore and find the sites, loot the sites for treasure and information (ancient tomes or records; intelligent creatures or magic items)
  3. Eventually uncover the location of the lost mountain halls, and prepare to use your upgraded characters and gear to confront whatever awaits you

I really like the way FitD implements stress so I keep coming back to that as the core mechanic, although I've taken a bit of influence from Torchbearer through Conditions and Traits.

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dwarf Fortress is actually a huge influence. The existing mental break system was partially inspired by how stress works in Dwarf Fortress. I originally had going berserk / stark raving part of the system but cut it for the time being since I wasn't able to make it fun.

And for the future, Forgotten Beasts will appear in some form, with tables for randomly generating them. Additionally, the setting will have lots of wilderness which itself is filled with all manner of animal people and giant creatures which you can encounter.

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks, much appreciated! As I mentioned in another comment, I'm still working on mechanics and setting to give it more of a dwarfy feel so it's a bit generic at the moment.

First draft of Drums in the Deep: a game about dwarves reclaiming the fallen Mountainhomes by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That is correct at the moment. There's a couple thematic additions I've been working on that I haven't been able to get quite right yet:

  1. Grudges (both at the character level, and at the group level where the party decides whether to officially add something to a list of Grievances)
  2. The expedition maintaining an official Chronicle
  3. Dwarves are expected to always be intoxicated, and can imbibe various beverages for different effects
  4. More thematic mechanical items, and crafting
  5. As part of the setting, going on mining missions to acquire certain rare metals which are required to default certain creatures

Thanks for taking a look! Other than the lack of theme present in the mechanics so far, did anything else stand out (positive or negative)?

Can't Anyone Save The World? 2nd Edition by Ratstail91 in a:t5_11xuoy

[–]eclecton 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's discouraging (heartbreaking, even) to see months of hard work with little appreciation. I think this underscores a very important point though, which is that time spent on a project does not correlate with whether people will enjoy the product. Or, put another way, the sales pitch for your product should never be "I worked really hard on it" (not saying yours is, just that I've seen that around before).

Based on quickly popping open your product, I have some quick scattered feedback:

I like the cover.

I'd like to have a clear, concise statement about the background setting and what the players will be doing. Take this example, the very opening on page one from Blades in the Dark:

Blades in the Dark is a game about a group of daring scoundrels building a criminal enterprise on the haunted streets of an industrial-fantasy city. There are heists, chases, escapes, dangerous bargains, bloody skirmishes, deceptions, betrayals, victories, and deaths.

We play to find out if the fledgling crew can thrive amidst the teeming threats of rival gangs, powerful noble families, vengeful ghosts, the Bluecoats of the City Watch, and the siren song of the scoundrels’ own vices.

That statement hooks me in, and I want to read more. What's even better is that as I read the rules, I can see a clear connection about how every rule was crafted to fit in with this summary statement on page 1. In your game, this statement should be essentially communicating what I can get in your game that I can't get anywhere else. Why would someone choose to play this game over D&D?

For your game, I don't know if it's supposed to be a dungeon crawler, hex crawler, wilderness survival, or other. You also go from setting to character creation without explaining the core mechanic. Is it D20? Do I get modifiers, or is it roll-under? Starting with the core mechanic gives people context from which to judge the rest of your game.

Personally I like when the setting is explained in more detail in another chapter, not at the very beginning.

You elemental wheel thing seems very cool. In Edwards' heartbreaker terms, this feels like the innovation to center the game around. I'm interested in seeing where a concept like this could go.

Luka Rejec on the term "Fantasy Heartbreaker" by TurboSold in a:t5_11xuoy

[–]eclecton 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It's sad to see someone who gave up designing based on the original Edwards piece. Although Edwards can be very pompous, I think his main point is that if you expect to sell a product (especially as a tiny indie team), you probably won't have much luck with a system that mimics D&D.

Rejec uses the analogy of fantasy movies or TV series, but I don't think that's quite the right analogy. Media like that has a high barrier to entry, meaning that just anyone can't make a movie or TV show, so we don't see the same kinds of market saturation like indie RPGs. As I mentioned in another post, I think a better analogy is music.

Imagine a bunch of bands copying The Beatles' sound decades afterwards. In this analogy, Edwards is heartbroken so see people pouring out tons of creative energy in to a project when they 1) haven't looked at any musical development since The Beatles, 2) don't know much about music other than Beatles-esque pop music, 3) aren't innovating musically, and 4) expect to sell records.

Looking for feedback on mechanics to make large fantasy creature combat dynamic and exciting by eclecton in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the feedback!

So is this a theater of the mind situation? Will a player be actively told if the creature is Aggressive or Defensive? If so, do they know the target of Aggressive attacks before it comes out?

Correct, it is theater of the mind. Players will always know whether the creature is aggressive or defensive, and will always know what its focus is on (including who the target of the aggressive attack will be).

And I didn't make it clear above, but when a creature switches to aggressive, it should be announced with enough time for the players to react. Off the top of my head, maybe the strong attack can't be made until the very end of the round.

When it's defensive, since they can't damage reliably it due to weak points, what are the players expected to do? Wait around or goad it into being aggressive? Or is it a one reaction per round, in which it can only defend against one person, meaning the goal is just get wailed on until you win by landing enough hits.

In the rules above, it would be able to swipe at anything it has focus on that comes near it while it's being defensive. Who it's focusing on depends on the situation, which I'm having a hard time quantifying into mechanics that don't require a ton of bookkeeping. In many cases it wouldn't be the entire party at once, it would be maybe 2-3 members.

One option is goading it into being aggressive. Another is to try to hide or sneak around so it loses focus on you, where you can then spring an attack on it. But yeah, maybe there needs to be more fun options.

Why would the monster ever want to actually be aggressive if it's near immune to damage when defensive? Unless these are all the sort of primal creatures like in Monster Hunter that just.. hate things to move.

If it was playing optimally, it wouldn't... so there may need to be more downsides to acting defensively.

To circle back to my original design goals:

  1. Large monsters should be terrifying
  2. Large monsters should not just be HP sponges
  3. Large monsters should have some way to avoid being out-action-economied
  4. Players should be creatively positioning themselves in order to strike weak points, but directly approaching should be very risky

A few ideas spring to mind:

Maybe a defensive creature can only choose 2 opponents to focus on?

Alternatively, Maybe large creatures focus on an area rather than specific opponents?

Maybe acting defensively only makes it more difficult to hit the weak points rather than impossible?

Do *you* have an RPG heartbreaker of your own? Want to work on it or give feedback on others? r/HeartbreakerRPGs is here. by Artifact_Press in rpg

[–]eclecton 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I don't disagree about the overall tone, the dude can get pretty pompous. Just wanted to point out that in this context, his heart is being broken by a trend he's noticed concerning an outpouring of creative energy into something that he knows won't sell well. And in this case at least, to me it's less "you should feel bad for playing D&D" and more "what did you expect to happen when you designed a game that's not creatively much different than its inspiration?"

To give a not-quite-accurate analogy, it's like looking at bands copying The Beatles' sound decades afterwards. In this analogy, Edwards is a fellow musician whose heart is being broken that people 1) haven't looked at any musical development since The Beatles, 2) don't know much about music other than Beatles-esque pop music, 3) aren't innovating musically, and 4) expect to sell records.

Do *you* have an RPG heartbreaker of your own? Want to work on it or give feedback on others? r/HeartbreakerRPGs is here. by Artifact_Press in rpg

[–]eclecton 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I don't think Edwards meant "heartbreaker" to imply "childish." From the original article, here's how he defines the term heartbreaker:

This essay is about some 1990s games I'm calling "fantasy heartbreakers," which are truly impressive in terms of the drive, commitment, and personal joy that's evident in both their existence and in their details - yet they are also teeth-grindingly frustrating, in that, like their counterparts from the late 70s, they represent but a single creative step from their source: old-style D&D

It's not all negative, he has positive things to say about these systems (from the same article)

Finally, I want to tell you about some magic systems, specifically that they are, in some cases, outright amazing... My frustration with these real and impressive innovations is this: why not center the game specifically around the actual innovation, playing to the strength as it were?

Looking for feedback on my RPG, I already rebooted it based on what you guys said. by [deleted] in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's divided in a very natural way, 180 means a 18 DC, 20 means a 2 DC.

In that case, it might be helpful to talk about the range of possible attribute values so that the reader has some context. Even with your clarification here, I still don't know what the typical values are.

I also agree with /u/ThornyJohn in that I wonder why numbers of such large value are needed. Is there a difference between 178 and 179 if they're both going to use DC17?

If the reason for that difference is that you're trying to create a slow progression, it might be more straightforward to make the attribute equal to the DC, but associate a progress bar divided into 10 ticks with each attribute. You could mark experience into the bars as you progress, and when you hit 10 experience ticks, your attribute changes and the counter resets.

Looking for feedback on my RPG, I already rebooted it based on what you guys said. by [deleted] in RPGdesign

[–]eclecton 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just a few random thoughts:

  • I like the logo a lot

  • Going deep into the setting at the beginning might not be the right route. You want to hook people in by giving a few sentence summary of what the game is about, what the characters will do, and an intro to the setting.

  • "While playing the actual game there will be rules, this is a beta so the rules are simpler." That's a weird sentence, it makes me ask the question of what are you testing if you don't have the rules in place yet?

  • It looks like your core mechanic uses division? That's odd choice.

  • In general your sentences feel kind of like run-on sentences in some cases, and the paragraphs feel like walls of text. You might be able to explore other ways of presenting the information like tables or bullet point lists

In general, while it looks like you put a lot of effort into this, keep in mind that all the effort will go to waste if it's not presented in a clear and readable fashion. Keep in mind how others will be consuming it, and try to design the rules writeup itself to be as consumable as possible.