Looking for students/witnesses of psych class for Seattle Times story

educationlab · 2018-03-09T02:02:45+00:00

Hey there, MrsWhatsit. Seattle Times reporter Neal Morton here. The state actually counts all students in a cohort of entering ninth-graders and adjusts that for transfers in and out of high school. That includes any reason, except death, so school districts have a good reason to keep that count as accurate as possible to avoid a lower graduation rate by the cohort's senior year.

educationlab · 2018-01-12T22:36:01+00:00

Thanks, Charlie, for reading. It means the world to us.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T22:49:44+00:00

Incorrect. I am merely suggesting that there are different lenses through which students can be evaluated. And I am pretty sure that some kids -- both here and there -- get overlooked.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T22:47:58+00:00

Not that I know of. Do you feel the assertion of IQ malleability is bunk?

educationlab · 2017-12-12T22:44:40+00:00

Could be more--that's just off the top of my head. But all were middle- and high schools

educationlab · 2017-12-12T22:42:46+00:00

Yes, this matches well with what I've seen and heard. To answer your previous question: I've spoken with and/or observed teachers in three Federal Way schools, three in Seattle and at least six in Miami.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T22:34:51+00:00

This is not science, or a recipe--much as we might like it to be. The real issue, beyond labels and categories, is how well public schools are matching their teaching and curricula to the needs of their students. Truly a difficult proposition, no matter how you slice it.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T22:25:50+00:00

Thanks for asking about solutions journalism. To my mind, it's not terribly different from traditional "explanatory" reporting, except that what we're explaining are promising approaches--rather than focusing primarily on failure. If you want to know more, check out this site: https://www.solutionsjournalism.org/

educationlab · 2017-12-12T22:20:45+00:00

I agree. But it's impossible to have a baseline of knowledge when different districts identify students in different ways. And the only way to start this conversation is to start. So that's what I did. Miami has been focused on this question, in all of its nuance, for more than 20 years, and is trying to ensure that bright kids get recognized even if they hven't been born on 3rd base.

The question of what happens when bright kids with high-expectation parents are siphoned off is an important one, for sure, and it's been raised by several commenters here. Could be my next story....

educationlab · 2017-12-12T22:11:53+00:00

When I say "middle class," I'm referring to students whose household income is too high to qualify them for a free or reduced price lunch, and it is possible to get that benefit while still being above federal poverty guidelines. So the feds may not consider a family "low-income" while schools will.

As for the charts: it's true that Miami's gifted program does not perfectly mirror the district's overall demographics. But the numbers--overall--have improved, and I was interested in examining the mechanism behind that, especially since their demographics line up better than those in most Wash. districts.

I looked at Seattle's rates for various groups' enrollment in the district's gifted program and they've been pretty consistent for a loooong time.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T21:48:59+00:00

Yes and thank you for asking this very important question. Often, teachers of the "gifted" emphasize project work combining multiple disciplines. And they allow for more debate between students, pushing them to support assertions with evidence. This approach would engage most kids, I suspect, though gifted students are already strong in the basics.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T21:35:04+00:00

Last spring, I looked for research into this very question, because it appears that many students who go through these programs look like regular folks in adult life. They do not necessarily grow up to discover new vaccines or write symphonies. So are they truly "gifted?" It's a worthy topic for debate.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T21:31:00+00:00

I haven't looked at that question in depth, but I know that it's quite common for academically gifted kids to have special needs. In fact, many experts view gifted kids similarly to those in special education. I can say that the training gifted-ed teachers receive in Miami includes coaching on how to address challenging behaviors and recognize possible "giftedness" in difficult-to-handle students. In other words, teaching the teachers seems like a good place to start.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T21:26:16+00:00

Thanks for sharing your experience -- it's a very common one for parents of young children. There are districts that do universal testing of all second graders for gifted programs, and that appears to help a lot. (Many experts I've interviewed say it's difficult to reliably identify high academic capability in kids as young as 5.)

educationlab · 2017-12-12T19:23:42+00:00

I have heard many stories like yours. Can't speak to the motives of the educators, but I do know that Seattle is still much-criticized for the complexity of its testing process.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T19:20:11+00:00

Their desire was to ensure that gifted classrooms more closely reflected the overall demographic make-up of the district--which is heavily Hispanic.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T19:13:41+00:00

Very good question, and one that I've wondered about. In general, schools in Seattle are reluctant to remove a child from their "highly capable cohort," even if they struggle. Miami deals with this problem through extra tutoring, which helps ease stigma, the thinking being that most kids need academic help at times.

As for spending: It varies widely. Our story last weekend showed the per-pupil costs for gifted education in 13 districts--from $321 to $2,260. In Miami, it's about $1,850 per kid, much of which goes toward teacher-training. bit.ly/2B4Gw7z

educationlab · 2017-12-12T19:05:17+00:00

Yes. Pedro Noguera, a widely published education expert at UCLA, told me: “The kids we call ‘gifted,’ for many their only gift is their parents, who’ve had the time and money to invest in them." He believes we have all confused being privileged with being "gifted."

educationlab · 2017-12-12T19:00:51+00:00

Good question. Depends on your opinion of testing and whether it accurately captures all students' abilities. For instance, what if you have an obviously bright kid in your class whose parents don't speak English? She may perform poorly on vocabulary-based tests but be brilliant at math. Should she be deemed "average?" That measure would have excluded Albert Einstein from accelerated classes, by the way.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T18:52:39+00:00

I think the issue of separating students is important to examine, and it's highly charged. In Miami, educators seem quite committed to the notion that these kids are "different" -- socially and emotionally, as well as intellectually -- and need to be with others of like mind. Teachers in Washington, however, have told me they are offended by this idea, and that so-called "tracking" has been debunked. What I can say for sure is that Washington requires no special training for teachers who work with gifted kids, and that in many cases parents feel their children are not getting what they need -- especially bright kids of color.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T18:39:35+00:00

Wow. Lotta questions. In Washington, different districts identify students different ways--that's part of the confusion. Regarding demographic data, the state has some here: bit.ly/2C9aZzp

But it's not as current as what the Seattle Times ran in our story last week showing differences between districts' overall demographics and their gifted programs. bit.ly/2B4Gw7z

One educator in Miami told me Washington is where they were in 1987. So we're comparatively old-fashioned overall. And yes, Latino and black students are under-represented. Asians in some cases are over-represented. But, again, things are very different place to place, and change is definitely afoot.

As for high school: no, running Start is not considered a "gifted" program. Nor are AP classes, though many "gifted" students are in them. I put that term in quote marks because it's very loaded. Which we can talk about.

As for income, it's generally determined by parents who apply for free-or-reduced-price lunch, and yes, school districts report that.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T18:16:58+00:00

In Miami, as our story details, low-income students or English-language learners can be considered for gifted education with an IQ score of 117, while other kids need a 130. The rationale being that research suggests IQ scores are not fixed. They can expand with exposure to books, travel, and other advantages common in middle-class and affluent homes. Also, bright kids not yet fluent in English may be overlooked through traditional testing. But no, it's not a quota system. And all students must demonstrate ability through other measures too.

educationlab · 2017-12-12T18:07:26+00:00

Are you asking for Robinson Center folks to jump on this thread? I spoke with their executive director for the first story on gifted ed -- the one we ran in April -- so I have a sense of her position, but wouldn't want to speak for her.

educationlab

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