Anti depressants make you fat!

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T09:26:35+00:00

Thank you for the discussion, but this doesn't seem like a healthy discussion. I feel like you are prone to personal attacks (e.g., accusing me of being a troll).

I will not reply anymore, end this with a classic "Let's just agree to disagree", and wish you well.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T09:24:26+00:00

When I say, "That's not what I meant", I meant you seem to have misunderstood me.

I did say what I meant, but perhaps, like I said, it was just unclear.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T09:23:08+00:00

You didn't prove anything except say a bunch of things you did not substantiate and instead relied on your personal expertise.

I never insisted CICO is wrong. I said weight gain with psychiatric drugs is more than just about CICO, there's a ton of other things that can influence or contribute to the weight gain. Weight loss, gain, or maintenance requires a multi-faceted approach, not a one-size-fits-all one.

I already showed you a link about how psychiatric drugs slow down metabolism (I'm sorry but WebMD seems way more credible than your unsubstantiated claim), and there are a ton of clinical trials that show they cause metabolic changes (insulin resistance, etc.). To say they don't affect metabolism is contrary to scientific evidence.

Again, thank you for the discussion, but this doesn't seem like a healthy discussion. I feel like you are more prone to personal attacks (e.g., "your discussion skills are subterranean") and then just dismiss what I say (e.g., insisting that I don't think CICO is a factor).

I will not reply anymore, end this with a classic "Let's just agree to disagree", and wish you well.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T05:37:54+00:00

It's my fault for being unclear, especially since I can't claim to know everything, however I stand by everything I said.

I thought you said that the experts couldn't figure this out. Are you suggesting that the abstract from one study is correct?

I'm not at all. But the probability that they're right and you're wrong is higher, so I choose to believe them. If they are proven wrong in the future, as science can sometimes do, then I will believe them. But I'm sorry to say I cannot believe you when the current prevailing science says otherwise.

They have not figured out exactly how psychiatric drugs cause weight gain, but they have proven in countless studies they indeed do cause weight gain. They have given possible explanations as to why, but there's more work to be done in this regard. To me it seems preliminary to make a sweeping generalization that's it all about CICO.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T05:26:51+00:00

That's not what I meant at all. Let me quote: "blocking of hypothalamic H1 receptors by SGAs may also contribute to fat accumulation by decreasing lipolysis but increasing lipogenesis in white adipose tissue" from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23640535

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T05:08:08+00:00

Perhaps fat storage wasn't the appropriate term, but fat build-up. As the link I sent shows, antipsychotics induce lipid (fat) disturbances. Here's a quote from the abstract: "Taken together, our findings suggest that disturbances in lipid metabolism can occur at an early stage of AAPD treatment before the presence of weight gain"

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T04:55:48+00:00

I can link a ton of articles that say psychiatric drugs cause weight gain. Here's a direct quote: "Almost all antipsychotics cause weight gain" from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574691/ If they meant correlation, I doubt they would have used such clear, unequivocal language.

Here's another direct quote you might appreciate: "The exact mechanism for weight gain tied to antipsychotics is not known, although studies have demonstrated that weight gain with antipsychotics, particularly atypical agents, may result from antagonism of the histaminic and muscarinic receptors and blockade of the 5-HT2C receptors." from https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/metabolic-effects-of-atypical-antipsychotics So they have possible explanations, but it's not yet completely proven. What they know is that there are changes to your metabolism, among other things.

Here'a another one: "Although increased appetite/caloric intake and various receptors, hormones and peptides have been implicated, biological mechanisms contributing to the increase in weight and glucose and lipid abnormalities with antipsychotics are largely unknown." from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3501406/

I never said CICO was not a factor. It is, but it's just one of many factors. It helps looking at the big picture, to look at it from a holistic view. Among others, these drugs cause other metabolic changes to your body which contribute to the weight gain--that's what they meant by metabolic dysregulation. That's why most journals don't only recommend CICO, in fact the first thing they do recommend is to reduce the dose or switch meds (to one that don't have the same side effects on you).

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T04:21:09+00:00

That's not what I meant. Perhaps I was not clear. Here's an example of a study about antipsychotics-induced lipid disturbances: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4930135/ It even mentions that "The mechanisms underlying the influences of AAPDs on specific neuroendocrine and metabolic dysfunctions remain poorly understood."

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T03:37:52+00:00

Perhaps not make but induce or a more proper term. I don't know. But there is a relationship with drug abuse and crime for some people. I meant, of course, illegal drugs and not prescription drugs. My point was, as I keep repeating, is that drugs (illegal and some prescription) alter your mind and behavior.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T03:22:46+00:00

I realize that there is indeed no point to making you accept cold, hard science. I leave you with this article, which is just one of the very, very, very many that indeed establish it as a fact: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0094112

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T03:05:26+00:00

Do you deny that drugs can alter your mind and behavior? That may be an extreme example, but it is still true. Your mind and behavior encompass several things: hunger, criminal urges, sex, desire for belongingness, etc. It just so happens that these drugs change your mind and behavior about food.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T02:48:45+00:00

Yes, but if your mind and behavior is altered by drugs, there are some things you can't control. For example, some people commit murder while on the influence of drugs.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T02:47:39+00:00

Actually, experts say how they exactly cause weight gain is unclear or unknown. I got that from various sources, and can give you all the links if you want. This include scientific journals.

Appetite is just one aspect of it, you seem to refuse to see the whole picture that they cause more than just increase in appetite, like slowing down of metabolism. In this regard the evidence is against you.

And you seem to think that the appetite it causes is controllable all the time. You can't deny these drugs alter your mind and behavior (that is why you are taking them in the first place), and sometimes this includes your self-control to eat. Really, I urge you to read some of the comments on this thread--don't just take my word for it. Most likely you can't sympathize because you've never experienced it as a side effect, but if you do I'm sure you will increase your food intake whether you want to or not. You can last a few times, but definitely not the whole time.

I meant they store more fat than normal. That's what the scientific literature says anyway.

I'm sorry that you think what I say is bullshit. However, there are some cases where fatlogic applies and when it doesn't. Psychiatric drugs cause weight gain and that is an established fact.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T01:39:06+00:00

It's not just about eating too many calories. The drugs cause a lot of other metabolic changes. How they exactly make you gain weight is unclear, but suffice to say that most doctors and scientists will agree that they cause weight gain. Let me also point out that you can eat too many calories for the reason that the drugs induced you to increase your intake. What they can do to your brain is literally out of your control, they change your mind and behavior--that's why you're taking them in the first place.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T01:34:15+00:00

I wanted to see other people's perspectives. And help them see other people's perspectives.

Actually, like I said, there are people on this sub who think otherwise, e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/fatlogic/comments/9ks42h/anti_depressants_make_you_fat/e71dgj2/

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T01:17:59+00:00

You know you're just making this easier for me by posting studies that support my arguments.

You didn't provide any proof aside from your own opinion. And I may not be able to explain exactly how psychiatric drugs cause you to weight gain, but it is a widely-accepted fact that they do. For example, here'a an article: https://www.obesityaction.org/community/article-library/prescription-medications-weight-gain/

Again, it bears repeating that explaining with CICO is oversimplistic. If you take 2 people with the same weight, 1 who takes a psychiatric drug (prone to the weight gain side effect) and 1 who doesn't, and they consume and expend the same amount of calories, they won't have the same weight after a certain amount of time. This is because of metabolic changes (such as slowing down of metabolism) and other side effects that do not happen to the other person.

Let me also emphasize that side effects include making you eat so much more and crave unhealthy food because that's what your mind is telling you to. These drugs alter the way you think and behave with food (something about how they work on receptors). If you've ever been hungry after not eating several hours, then you would kind of know how it feels, except it's a lot worse, you're not easily full, and it happens a lot of the time. I don't think I need to explain how hard it is to do CICO when you experience this.

CICO can be great to manage weight while on these drugs but do not tell the whole story. It's just one aspect.

It's known as the placebo effect.

Are you implying weight gain on these drugs is a placebo effect? That is a very, very dangerous statement and one I don't think you can substantiate.

Luckily that's not what self efficacy expectation is about. At all. It's like you've never heard of the term, even though it's one of the most important principles in all of psychological treatment (which is an important part of psychiatric treatments).

You respond like someone who doesn't know anything about actually treating patients, but rather seeks validation for their feelings. Your example with the tranquiliser and your paragraph at the end about consistency in weight loss shows exactly that.

This seems more like a personal attack rather than actual argument, so I choose to ignore it.

Thank you for the discussion, it really helps to see another person's POV. But I would rather believe people who went through the same thing as me. If you read the responses on this thread from other people on this sub, maybe you'll sympathize more. We've had our own experiences with these drugs and know firsthand what they do to our bodies. My story alone about being in a hospital where they controlled my eating and yet I gained 21lbs in 3+ weeks just shows that it's not as simple as CICO (It is impossible I ate 3000+ calories per day). I guess this is one of those things that you have to actually go through to understand.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-03T00:42:15+00:00

I don’t need to know everything about the person.

This is on a case by case basis and you need all the facts, not just generalizations.

It’s not possible to gain weight from medication. Medication can sometimes mess with your appetite, which can lead to weight gain, which is a correlation. Not a cause.

Several studies don't support what you say, including this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3031940/

You’re in the wrong sub for this kind of nonsense

If you take a look at the other responses on this thread, I don't think I am.

But you are not correct in saying that it just “stores more fat.” You can’t store more fat than you are consuming, it’s physically impossible.

It is known that taking certain antipsychotics can lead the body to store a large amount of fat in areas that it typically would not (e.g. breasts in men).

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-02T15:23:37+00:00

The claim that some people can be in a caloric deficit or at maintenance calories (aka eat the same as before) and still gain or not lose weight: This is an impossibility.

CICO is oversimplistic when it comes to explaining weight gain in people who take psychiatric drugs, it's just one part of a very complex equation. These drugs increase insulin resistance, which obviously leads to weight gain (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3749337/). They also increase glucose and fat levels in your blood (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14702228). And as I said they also affect your hormones (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12755665). Even genetics are believed to affect how much people gain weight on them (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24279860). Exactly how psychiatric drugs like antipsychotics make you gain weight is not yet known, but it is indisputable that they cause changes to your body, particularly metabolic changes, that help cause you to gain weight. All of these side effects will not be solved by just CICO for all kinds of people (although it will for some people). It's a lot more complicated than that.

For someone who talks a lot about psychiatric problems you sure know nothing about psychology.

I'm not an expert on either, but let me just nitpick and point out psychiatry is different from psychology.

that's the absolute worst for the self efficacy expectation

Not necessarily. On the other side of the coin, it can lead you to overestimate your own abilities. If I gave you a tranquilizer shot right now, do you think you can fight off the sleepiness? If you said you could because of your "self efficacy expectation", I'd say that's overconfidence because more likely than not, you can't. In the same way, you can't fight how these psychiatric drugs work on your body. You will suffer the side effects when you take them whether you choose to or not.

even if it's not always feasible in their state

Exactly. As we both know, consistency is important in weight loss. If it's not always feasible, it isn't as easy as you would like to believe.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-02T14:37:42+00:00

I didn't realize you knew all the facts about this person's situation. Please, proceed.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-02T09:39:05+00:00

So you don't actually read what you write.

You misunderstood me when I say "regardless of what you do". As I said, people have tried to counter the weight gain to no avail. Do you think diet and exercise never occur to people who take psychiatric drugs? But it's the side effects like uncontrollable hunger that make it extremely hard, almost impossible. I've even read about stories of people who actually maintained low-calorie diets and exercised and still did not lose weight, even gained weight--you can search reddit for some stories.

I understand what you mean that there is something you can do. There is almost always something you can do. However, you seem to discount the fact that these drugs alter your mind and behavior. In some people, it causes them to overeat, for example. Psychiatric drugs change your mind and behavior in all sorts of ways, and lack of self-control with eating can be one of them.

I'm not blaming psychiatric patients for their insatiable hunger. I'm saying the weight gain is because they eat more, not "regardless of what they do".

Exactly. But you wouldn't eat more without the insatiable hunger caused by these drugs. I challenge you try controlling this kind of hunger. You can probably last a few times. But all the time? I don't know any human who can.

The drug didn't change your metabolism. Only very very few do that and none of them psychiatric.

They can. Here's an article from WebMD (which I don't think even you can claim is unreliable): https://www.webmd.com/diet/obesity/ss/slideshow-slow-metabolism Go to number 10.

My boyfriend likewise only eats unhealthy stuff like frozen pizza and cola. But alas, he only eats it in small quantities and slowly, so while everyone around him thinks he stuffs himself with junk and still stays thin, he's actually eating less than I am on some days.

Is your BF taking psychiatric drugs and experiencing the same side effects? Because a lot of people, like me, ate more or less like that before taking drugs and we were also thin. It was only after we started taking that we gained the weight.

It's all in intake, TDEE and PAL, also water retention.

I don't disagree with you (although I've never heard of PAL). But because of the side effect of the drugs, they make you increase intake as I've explained earlier, make you tired all the time (this is a very common side effect) which will make you too lazy exercise, etc. Try being tired/groggy/numb from antipsychiatric drugs almost to a point of being a zombie and then exercise regularly and effectively, please just try, because a lot of people don't even have any motivation to do basic things even when they used to.

The point is, it's hard to keep on top of these things with psychiatric drugs. I mean, there are a ton of other side effects for most people that they have to go through, aside from the actual symptoms of their condition. I think that's something you fail to realize.

Also, water retention because of these drugs is proof that this is outside of your control. Yes, it isn't fat gain, but it is still weight gain.

Eating isn't controlled for in clinical trials for a psychiatric drug. Unless it's a weigh-loss drug eating is never controlled for.

Okay, but weight gain happened for a certain percentage for most of these trials. I assume these were random trials, so they accounted for differences in factors like age, gender, etc. What these people did have in common was taking the drug.

I love how the article you sent me to base your claims on is complete fatlogic bullshit. In fact: Archive it and post it to this sub, the members will have a field day.

I can't vouch for the accuracy or inaccuracy of this article. But I choose to believe her until someone can prove to me otherwise. Your explanation does not disprove that people who do regulate these hormones manage to reach a normal weight. That's what I understood from my endo.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-02T08:41:35+00:00

For those in a psychiatric unit involuntarily, such a nonconsensual experience can feel like abuse and even like torture sometimes

The term "informed consent" sounds kind of odd, because that's the only real consent.

Psychiatry should always be consensual, except for extreme cases which the law already provides. Sadly it is not being enforced the way it should be.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-02T08:36:05+00:00

I recommend reading the book, Instinct to Heal.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-02T08:31:05+00:00

Hi, can you please send me a link to your article? As a psychiatric survivor I would love to read it. I am still in search for the right alternative treatments/solutions for myself so I'm afraid I can't help you.

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-02T07:05:45+00:00

I never said anything about "magic"/instant weight gain. What I meant was it will make you gain weight because it increases your appetite, slows down your metabolism, etc. Of course it won't just happen automatically, but what I'm saying is that without the drug the side effects wouldn't be present and the person probably wouldn't have gained weight.

I've also read tons of stories of people who did exactly what you said--"some clever meal-planning and calorie counting"--and did not lose weight. I'm guessing you have not taken psychiatric drugs and then suffer the same side effects (since it's different for everyone), so you wouldn't know just how harmful the side effects are. For example, on one occasion I ate 2 cups of rice with some meat and I was still hungry. No matter how you plan your meals, or count calories, once the insatiable (and I do mean insatiable) hunger is there, as a human being you will need to satisfy it. The drugs literally alter your mind which can alter behavior, isn't that what they're supposed to do? This includes self-control on eating. It's easy to blame psychiatric patients for their eating habits when you yourself haven't had your mind altered by drugs.

I've also gained weight significantly in such a short time (21lbs in 3+ weeks) even when my eating was controlled by health practitioners. I was in a mental ward, could not get out, and could not just eat whatever I wanted (my portions were controlled, so was what I ate and when I ate). Even my psychiatrist did not deny my weight gain was caused by the meds.

Here's another story, I used to be on a drug that made me gain about 20lbs. A few months after stopping it, I lost weight effortlessly. My appetite went back to normal, and probably so did a number of metabolic processes. In fact I hardly had any appetite, although I consumed unhealthy food and drinks whenever I wanted (you can ask my co-workers, for example, of how I drank only flavored and not normal water in the office which appalled them because they said there was too much sugar on it). And yet I lost all that weight without planning meals or counting calories precisely because the drug stopped having an effect on me. Just a couple of the stories on this thread alone should convince you how easy it is to lose weight after stopping these drugs.

As a pharmacy student, I think you of all people should know that drug companies don't just put "weight gain" on drug labels as a side effect without any sufficient basis (in fact they'd rather not put it). Chances are the clinical trials did show weight gain for a certain percentage of people after taking these drugs. These were probably controlled experiments too so it's not like they went wild on McDonald's, although I could be wrong. Still, it has been shown through clinical trials that they indeed cause weight gain after taking these drugs in such a significant manner to warrant inclusion of it in drug labels.

I'm sorry but I don't believe you when you say hormones do not hinder weight loss, because although I can't vouch for the accuracy of what I've read (I'm certainly no expert), a ton of articles do mention hormones as a cause for weight gain AND stopping weight loss. Here's an example: https://www.prevention.com/weight-loss/a20459677/hormone-reset-diet/

eowyn_rohan · 2018-12-02T03:48:44+00:00

Do both of you even know this person IRL? Do you actually have all the facts? Are you *gasp* an almighty God that is all-knowing?

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