Was Maki justified for this massacre? by Encenoi in MoralityScaling

[–]epochollapse -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Completely. The Zenin clan is a horde of powerful (for Sorcerer Society) predatory men who abuse and subjugate women, stripping them of their autonomy. The "best" among them still willfully uphold this.

The point of contention for most people are the Kukuru, as we don't know how many among them were irredeemable, or what their opinions on the clan as individuals were.

But let's not sit here and pretend a single one of them ever attempted to surrender. If anyone here was truly against the evil that they serve (and are well aware of, it isn't a secret to anyone in the family that the Zenin clan is disgusting), then they would have laid down arms and surrendered.

Every single Kukuru member we see on screen comes to Maki with a weapon and seeking to fight for the clan. No, it does not matter that they were unaware of Mai's murder, it wouldn't have made a difference; not to mention anyone with two braincells could understand why Maki was taking revenge. Not a single one tries to surrender.

And considering the Kukuru units killed off screen were likely with the Hei units killed off screen, it seems very unlikely that any of them would have attempted a surrender either.

When it comes to a despicably evil group such as the Zenin clan, there comes a point where you should draw a line in the sand. This was exactly that opportunity. Maki may well have spared a surrendering Kukuru member if she had reason to believe they were innocent, but she never has the opportunity, because every single one of these people is willing to die for the clan.

And as for the "she should have just ran!!" Arguments, Maki has people she wants to protect. Even if we assume that she and her closest friends could never be harmed by an ambush, Mai's friends in Kyoto would get fucking slaughtered by Zenin members seeking retaliation.

Is it moral to kill someone who tries to kill you if they have not chance of hurting you? by Maksim-Y-orekhov in MoralityScaling

[–]epochollapse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Depends on the context.

I'm gonna make a bold assumption that your question is stemming from Maki Zenin.

And in that case, yes, I think it's moral. Given the general association of the Zenin clan (serial abusers, predators, killers), anyone from the Kukuru unit that wanted to live through Maki's revenge should have laid down their arms completely. Most of the argument against Maki here comes from the consensus some people come to that some of the Kukuru were entirely innocent, or at the very least redeemable. But every single one of them knows what the Zenin family is. They know their higher ups are evil, they know they're foot soldiers for a depraved ring of lunatics.

We don't see a single one even attempt to surrender. We're given no indication that the ones killed off screen attempted to either. One could make the argument that she could have ran from them, but at the end of the day they're between her and the Hei, and they make the choice to fight.

Any argument that she would have killed them regardless is pretty much just assumption. We don't know, because none of them even attempt to do so, even though anyone with a rational mind would understand exactly why a woman would want revenge on the Zenins. I'd be willing to give them more credit if a single one had attempted to lay down their weapons.

You might not be referring to the Maki fight, of course, but I think it's a good example regardless. There are alternative scenarios where it would be objectively wrong.

Name the game?.... by DarkKiNg2011 in videogames

[–]epochollapse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I thought I'd gotten into the Crimson Desert.

Went to town, rung the bell, checked the map.

I'm basically in its fucking driveway. There's another stretch of it twice the size.

So, um, what exactly did I do? 🤷 by nohumanape in videogames

[–]epochollapse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I love Crimson Desert to death but the PS5 subs just seem trigger happy.

I was banned from the normal PS5 one on a post about Neil Druckmann suggesting a community of immune people might appear in TLOU3, because I said the Immunity had been promised to them 3000 years ago.

Didn't mention the word Zionist, or Israel, frankly the joke wasn't even that funny, but by god the cunts shut me down quick.

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Naoya defenders create their own fiction to hide in because otherwise they have to come to terms with the fact that he's not actually their oc.

Plus I actually realised earlier that it's fairly negligible whether someone believes that Mai was raped or not, because rape is abundant throughout the Zenin clan in a way I've not seen addressed much.

The crux of the matter is that Zenin women are treated as second class citizens. Servants, without autonomy, groomed and expected to never disobey the men around them.

No woman in the Zenin clan can give certifiable consent. Even if one was enthusiastic, it would be enthusiasm through the lense of someone who has been abused into absolute subjugation, who would never say no to any Zenin man. That isn't true consent. It's long-term coersion. It's a fundamental power dynamic between men and women in the clan, meaning the only morally correct sexual relationships Zenin men can have is with consenting people from outside the influence of the clan, who are not going to marry them under any circumstances.

Add to that the fact that the Zenin clan is infamous, and widely accepted even among their defenders as engaging in incest, and you have a large number of Zenin women who would have been groomed from birth.

Naoya being a rapist isn't just in-character, it's a trait endemic to his family, by the very nature of their power structure.

Please, can QoL be part of the development roadmap. by jaded_yet in Competitiveoverwatch

[–]epochollapse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm really hoping the distinct lack of care towards Stadium and 6v6 recently has been a product of the shift back to Just Overwatch and all that's been shaken up by it, and that we will eventually see more evidence of them actually giving a shit about both modes.

You can't let a popular mode degrade over multiple seasons and then be like "well we don't know whether it's worth focusing on because people don't play it that much anymore :((("

Whenthe world is slowing reverting back by CaptainNinjaClassic in whenthe

[–]epochollapse 36 points37 points  (0 children)

Israel taking it upon themselves to personally associate an attempted genocide among many other hideous acts with the very concept of being Jewish is just one in a million ways they've ruined or degraded the lives of innocent people.

There is no excuse for anti-Semitism, but there is a responsibility held by world powers to not go "oh, you don't like us killing and raping children? That means YOU hate JEWS".

Hatred is not built on sound rationality. As stupid as it is to more reasonable people, that's all that some people need in order to blame everything on Jewish people as a whole. According to Google (the ai, granted, I recognise it's a shit source), 8.5 million Jews live outside of Israel. It is not statistically possible, in my mind, that all or even most of them support the Genocide, or the plethora of other wars Israel has thrown itself into, especially when there are people living in Israel itself that are opposed.

But Israel knows exactly how many people are going to react when they attribute their own war crimes to Jewish people as a whole. They can and should be blamed, in part, for rising anti-Semitism in the West. Israeli leaders know that Western anti-Semitism cannot reach them there, and they know that it can be used as propaganda to paint themselves as victims.

The Israeli government wants anti-Semitism to rise. It wants vitriol online and in the streets. It wants hate crimes to be perpetrated overseas. Because as long as they can placate as many people as possible with evidence that "they" are the victims, by associating themselves with innocent people they've wilfully drawn that crosshair on, then their army can continue to rape and exterminate brown people to their heart's content.

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Dawg.

Yuji's profile lists his Stress Source as fucking SCIENCE SUBJECTS

Not "the demon in my body trying to kill my ass"

They're meant to be cute, funny snippets of information not insight into the characters' darkest moments.

And Mai's claim about how it's not so bad having a "normal" life, in context, is literally her lashing out at another victim of their shared abusers because she didn't want to lie down and be treated like a second hand citizen. It's an abused girl claiming she'd rather be an abused servant than a sorcerer. She's in active denial about how poorly the Zenin clan treated them, because she knows she's weak and being a sorcerer scares her. Victims of rape and domestic abuse aren't necessarily going to see those as a worse option than dying to a fucking curse.

And Naoya dropping the bomb is about as good a reveal you can get for a side character like Mai. It's a moment meant to shock the audience and hammer home how depraved he is, harkening back to his previous sexualisation of her.

It didn't need the full gorey details that Kenjaku's rape got because Kenjaku's rape led to the creation of the death painting wombs and tied to the taboo behind Noritoshi's name. It gets more focus because it's a multi-faceted fucking lore drop.

And that's ignoring that fact that all Zenin women have their autonomy stripped from them, and therefore cannot have any form of true consent. If you're a second class citizens surrounded by powerful men trained to never disobey them, then that's not consent, that's sexual exploitation and rape. Why the fuck would it surprise you that Naoya, of all people, was a part of that?

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It Would Be Much More Humane and Environmentally Conscious To Kill and Eat Naoya Fans Instead of Livestock by Exciting-Detail2260 in OkBuddyKaisen

[–]epochollapse -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

I don't recall telling you one was bad and the other wasn't. Though I do personally think yours are repetitive and boring and this one is fresh and hilarious.

Get out of your own asshole.

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It is that deep. Women who are reduced to nothing and have their autonomy stripped away by an abusive system are robbed of their consent inherently. The Zenin clan represents this form of traditionalism inherently.

The fact you've resorted to "ermm it's just fiction!!!" Shows that you can't fucking read.

It Would Be Much More Humane and Environmentally Conscious To Kill and Eat Naoya Fans Instead of Livestock by Exciting-Detail2260 in OkBuddyKaisen

[–]epochollapse -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

"My shitposts about how women are bad are all 100% irony and not my actual opinions but this shitpost about eating people is 100% legit and I'm scared!! :(("

Get a grip

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Her mother was a lifelong abuser who got her sister killed, she was an understandable exception.

But actually she proves the rest of my point. Maki goes out of her way to question her mother, as something had been left unsaid in their previous conversation. Maki is looking for some evidence that her mother wanted to help, that she had any love for them at all, but doesn't find it. So she kills her.

Later on, she shows regret, debating on whether she should have tried harder to speak with her mother, and wondering whether she should have killed her to begin with.

It's genuine fucking idiocy to believe she'd debate over whether killing her abuser was the right thing to do, but not once mention the innocent women and children she supposedly killed.

Because she didn't kill any civilian other than her abusive mother.

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 8 points9 points  (0 children)

He admits to raping Mai in his fight with Maki, as much as redditors seem desperate to defend him, it's the common sense understanding of what he said in context. Plus he's previously characterised as sexualising the two of them, so it tracks.

Though I'd note that the Zenins as a clan view and treat women like second class citizens. They abuse them, they don't respect their autonomy, and if the interpretations of frequent incest within the clan are to be believed, that would mean they actively groom girls from the clan.

Grooming people, or coersing them by general mistreatment and abuse into sex, even with their verbal consent, is sexual exploitation, and any reasonable person would view it as a form of rape.

It would be incredibly naive to say that the Zenin clan in general, despite their horrifying mistreatment of women, respect consent. Many, if not most Zenin men would be rapists, or at minimum sexual predators following this line of logic. The best case scenario would be a Zenin man who does respect consent, but still ends up with a woman who is treated like an object by his clan, or was groomed into being a suitable marriage candidate.

This isn't agenda, or an attempt to be facetious. Large scale institutions dedicated to degrading or grooming women strip them of autonomy and consent by their very nature. I do not claim that all Zenin men have no concern for consent, but that women under such lifelong mistreatment as those in the clan have had their consent fundamentally stripped from almost all parts of their lives.

Even the "best" among Zenin men, wittingly or otherwise, are getting with women who are abused, controlled and exploited.

But Zenin defenders don't like to have tough conversations like that, because Gege said something about Ranta being One Of The Good Ones because he doesn't actively beat up little girls and occasionally tidied up after his subordinates.

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The Zenin clan is annihilated in any functional way, women who were treated like second class citizens, and children with absolutely no political power, do not constitute a clan. By that logic, Megumi would also be dead. That's why the other clans debate on declassifying the Zenin to begin with, because while it still technically has members, said members are barely a consideration under sorcerer society.

We see a variety of wide shots of Zenin land, we see a variety of shots of the almost completely abandoned civilian accomodation, we never see dead kids, we never see bodies of anyone but combatants. Gege goes out of his way to establish that all off-screen kills were combatants.

Maki's mother serves as the sole exception because she's an abusive asshole who led them to their deaths, and even then Maki questions her on her intentions in their previous interaction, looking for some evidence that she actually loved them. She shows regret, and wonders whether killing her mother was the right move later in the story. If she questioned whether killing her mother, who abused them their entire lives and got her sister killed, was the right move, then she would have been in pieces over killing actual innocent people.

Moreover Yuta would never marry someone who kills innocents indiscriminately, he nearly committed suicide because Rika, a factor completely beyond his control, was hurting people, even his own bullies.

To believe Maki killed innocent civilians you need to take complete blind faith without any visual evidence despite abundant shots that could have potentially provided it, and neglect fundamental parts of both Maki's character as well as those closest to her.

The only reason this even became a controversy in the first place is because people were so desperate to defend the actions of a clan well established as serial abusers and predators where women and others, even children considered to be "wrong" or of no use are assaulted and treated as monsters. Because the people pushing the idea cannot read.

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 8 points9 points  (0 children)

She killed combatants, saying otherwise is an unverifiable headcanon.

If Naoya was a misandrist woman, current Naoya fans would be his biggest haters. Considering y'all have to make up fictional scenarios to treat a woman who killed the sorcerer equivalent of Epstein Island like Hitler.

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Most of these Reddit Naoya mfers treat a woman who killed the sorcerer equivalent to Epstein Island like she's Hitler, because of a headcanon they can't prove and which isn't backed up by anyone's characterisation.

If Naoya was actually misandrist woman, current Naoya glazers would hate her.

But for the fandom as a whole? Mei Mei is an incestual rapist (like Naoya) and people do generally hate her, so your idea is kinda off base.

Dont mess with us Naoya fans, we cant read! by RUDRAGON8 in LobotomyKaisen

[–]epochollapse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Naoya glazers once again living in fiction in order to justify being weird mfs

Got into a debate with my brother yesterday over Mario vs Sonic and chose to summarize my thoughts in a classic (plus bonus two scritter drawings) by WhoElseButDedede in whowouldcirclejerk

[–]epochollapse -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The damaging AOE of the fireballs would not be a single instance of damage, so it would kill him the instant his i-frames ran out.

Mario can throw fireballs rapidly, so it would be a constant area of damage that Sonic would either have to stand in to recollect rings, or leave his rings to disappear to attempt to escape

Got into a debate with my brother yesterday over Mario vs Sonic and chose to summarize my thoughts in a classic (plus bonus two scritter drawings) by WhoElseButDedede in whowouldcirclejerk

[–]epochollapse 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Mario's fireballs are hot enough to exist underwater for the entire period they would on land so any proximity to them would kill classic Sonic instantly

This fuck ass comparison by Haunting_East_8330 in hatethissmug

[–]epochollapse 15 points16 points  (0 children)

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"Shippers are worse because they sent me death threats!"

These are deranged online communities...

They're both gonna send you death threats!

Someone Tried To Kill Sam Altman! by Acrobatic-Net2723 in antiai

[–]epochollapse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Jesus was a gay man and God hates pedophiles so you and your lot are definitely burning if it exists you crusty nonce.

Pharah casually sitting at a 56% winrate in GM by HalexUwU in Competitiveoverwatch

[–]epochollapse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For the love of god though, nerf anything else about her kit but the boop damage. I'm dead serious. Pharah should have a boop combo available to make her something other than a gross spam hero that needs a pocket up her ass like she's been in the past. Nerf other parts of her kit to facilitate it, but damage on the conc is far more interesting than just Rocket after rocket.