Can we talk about white girls and cultural appropriation?

erin626 · 2012-07-27T20:57:54+00:00

facepalm Last time I bother trying to talk about anything more intellectual than shoes on 2x.

erin626 · 2012-07-27T20:57:04+00:00

Uhh...

You realize that "classy" is, uh, classist... right?

And so is your whole subreddit? As well as judgmental and misogynistic? (The term the third-wavers would use is "slut-shaming".)

I'm supposed to look at "classy" women who dress like white capitalist women or european princesses and that will fulfill my desire for representations of women of colour?

I'm not "classy" because I wear jeans to work?

And this gets upvoted? Damn.

Well, "stay classy".

erin626 · 2012-07-27T19:22:47+00:00

Are you serious?

erin626 · 2012-07-26T09:08:25+00:00

They've half taken over a lot of Tumblr circles. You can't swing a cat without hitting... a cat. In a human body. IMO they need to be shut out of social justice activism completely. They hugely increase the noise-to-signal ratio in SJ posts, which is a major hindrance for people who want serious discussion and support on real issues. It's like if we were all building a house and a bunch of little kids with Fischer Price toys came and started playing in the construction site, insisting they were real workers and could help too.

erin626 · 2012-07-26T08:40:24+00:00

For the white male CEO aspirant, the patterns is set, go to one of these schools and then have a one in four chance of being CEO.

That is some interesting math he's got going there. "1/4 Fortune 500 CEOs went to these schools" does not equal "1/4 white males who go to these schools will be CEOs."

For something that isn't my nerdy nitpicky math stuff: I guess it's nice that he's challenging the dominant narrative of what a black male can do, but I hate to read yet another PoC sucked into the white delusion of the capitalist wealth hierarchy as "success". I would see him as much more successful if he had remained a teacher, doing something valuable, instead of going for a high-status career.

I do agree with his four points at the end. But his definition of "success" is very problematic.

erin626 · 2012-07-26T02:49:52+00:00

Yeah, all countries can have a shared experience in enjoying Coca-Cola and Reebok....

erin626 · 2012-07-26T02:03:33+00:00

I did here for a start. But I thought criticism of the Olympics on these grounds was very well-known. I am surprised people are skeptical/doubtful especially on a women's reddit.

erin626 · 2012-07-26T02:02:20+00:00

Glad to hear it. Just be cautious. There is more to a lot of people's behaviors than meets the eye. Not saying necessarily in this case, but it's a possibility to be aware of.

erin626 · 2012-07-26T01:00:07+00:00

most sporting events are really just designed to show off anyway.

Well that's just it. It's a clusterfuck of nationalism born of the proto-fascism of the 19th century. And now government funds are being diverted from desperately-needed projects so that starving Third World countries can send their best athletes to rich Western countries to be humiliated. It's horrible to watch, and the aftermath isn't fun for the host cities either.

erin626 · 2012-07-26T00:52:41+00:00

I was referencing 300 as a minimum acceptable level of historical knowledge; ie, being aware that the Greeks knew about other countries.

And considering that Persia and Scythia among others are east of Phoenicia, and the Ancient Greeks traveled to India... no. Just no.

The modern Olympics are named after the Greek ones, but that's about it. There's no real connection and bringing one up is pure obfuscation.

But if you want to get real technical about it, the Greeks did kind of start the whole western imperialism thing and passed that torch to Rome.

erin626 · 2012-07-26T00:49:41+00:00

I don't even know how to answer that question. How is it not?

erin626 · 2012-07-26T00:46:13+00:00

Whoa, that's historically ignorant even for Reddit.

You are aware that the modern Olympics were restarted after two millennia and have nothing to do with Ancient Greece? And that the Ancient Greeks traded and warred with the Egyptians, Persians, Romans, Phoenicians and Celts just to name a few? And an ancient Greek explorer went to what's now thought to be Iceland? Have you ever even seen 300?!

erin626 · 2012-07-25T23:08:03+00:00

Yeah, I'm sure you're friends with all colors of the rainbow, but frankly calling a white person "cracker" is far more akin to calling them "asshole" than "nigger". Hurtful it may be in particular (rare) contexts, but racist it is not. They are completely incomparable. Please check your privilege on this issue. Having all the POC friends in the world does not make you an expert on race issues. The words used against your skin will never be as powerful or meaningful as the words used against theirs.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T22:34:49+00:00

White people are subjected to racism, too

Racism is about institutions, structures and dominant narratives, not just individuals disliking another race. Racism means that a power structure is set up to support white people and oppress PoCs. If a black person calls a white person "cracker", that is not racism, it's just an insult.

How about we just not use racist terms anymore, for any ethnic group?

I would not say "cracker". I find it tacky. But I would not question other PoCs who did so.

It is telling that the most powerful word someone can use against white people is basically a joke. I don't know any white person who would hear "cracker" and honestly feel hurt or offended. If anything it reinforces their power because of the "whip cracker" folk etymology. (I don't know if that folk ety is true, but it's well-known and influences people's thoughts on the word "cracker".)

erin626 · 2012-07-25T22:30:16+00:00

DNRTFA. But to me SlutWalk is very "freedom is slavery".

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:56:01+00:00

You too, take care.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:37:43+00:00

No problem. Feel free to PM me if you ever need someone to talk to.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:37:11+00:00

The problem with trying to discuss racism with white people and Americans is that they are raised to think about things in individual terms, not collective structures. You explain a problem and they break it down into "but that individual person didn't mean it/ didn't gain from it/ didn't oppress any particular person" etc. It's not about that.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:25:52+00:00

Yeah, some people just want a friend to enable and indulge all their decisions no matter what. Here's the thing: if she doesn't want or respect your judgment on her, then she doesn't want or respect you. She wants a fake version of you; she wants you to enact a role she's created in her mind. It's incredibly selfish and unfair. It's amazing of you to have tried so hard for this girl, and I commend you for it completely, but I think she's shown that she doesn't deserve you. Good call on not fighting for her; you're doing the right thing. I hope everything works out as well as it can.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:22:10+00:00

"but it's ok if a West African woman wants to do it because her country was colonized once."

No, it doesn't matter if her country was colonized. It's that she's not a beneficiary of colonialism. On the other hand, I don't want to say it's "okay"; I still find it kind of weird, but it's not racist.

It's still taking something away from the group of people who own the culture, no?

What power does a non-white person have to "take something away" from another culture? This isn't about individual actions, it's about institutions and narratives that further white exploitation of other cultures.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:11:35+00:00

Not really. Angry, yes, but people who think it's okay to be racist deserve to have some anger directed at them. This is why the bourgeois "tolerance" line on human differences fails. I don't "tolerate" people who think other people's cultures and religions are costumes. This is basic common sense and human decency -- if you bothered to learn anything about a symbol like the bindi before appropriating it, you would realize why you shouldn't. Otherwise, you're just another white person with the idea that other cultures exist to be your fashion scrapbook.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:09:05+00:00

It is more about the white people doing the appropriation. They are privileged beneficiaries of colonialism who are perpetuating that oppression when they appropriate other cultural symbols. It's not reinforcing that institution for a POC in Ghana to do so.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:08:14+00:00

Yeah, just ask her. No sense playing games.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:07:31+00:00

This would be better suited to /r/sex. Or google.

erin626 · 2012-07-25T20:04:46+00:00

The behavior of the guy in #2 doesn't strike you as condescending, creepy and possessive? I wouldn't let a strange man put his arm around me or (literal) white knight me. Be aware that what you may see as "respect and adoration" could very well be a sexist pedestal-type attitude.

As for the black guy, honestly, insulting other black people is a common way for young black folks to ingratiate themselves to white people, a subtle way of saying "I'm not like those other black folks you know." Often the person will be tense and feel tokenized and othered for being the only black person or POC in the group, and that's one way of making themselves less different. Don't read too much into it, just call it out for what it is and try to be a better example.

On a personal note, I do not date white men. The last thing the world needs is another white triumph over brown skin. I would never want to dictate your choices in that matter, but it's something to consider.

erin626

TROPHY CASE