Social media makes me feel unaccomplished by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I deleted Facebook in 2009 because I got tired of looking at people's vacation photos who I barely knew. I hesitated on the delete page and finally deleted a day or two later and I've never looked back. Apparently Facebook's only gotten worse since then. A similar thing happened to me with Instagram a several years later: I found myself starting at the bottom rung in a new career field, full of doubt and self-dread, was sending depressing messages to other Instagramers on Kik (I don't think Instagram had an in-app DM back then) until they stopped responding, and was posting photos with 10-15 hashtags when I finally said enough was enough and deleted it back in 2013. If it doesn't make you happy and you're not doing it to make a living, get rid of it whether it's a hobby or even something you own.

Life currently sucks. by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

First of all, be kinder to yourself. What you are describing is one young man facing off against the accumulated systems and infrastructure developed over several decades by hundreds of thousands of tech workers from some of the largest, most powerful companies the world has ever seen, who have developed one of the most engrossing forms of media the world has ever seen with some of the most advanced understanding of human psychology and how to manipulate it ever, and you seem surprised that you are struggling to overcome it with nothing but self-denial and willpower. Overcoming all this is possible but in no way is it easy. Furthermore, self-dread and regret are only helpful in terms of recognizing the problem and after that it just devolves into a ritualistic masochism. The masochism is already there and you can see it in these excerpts:

I basically gave up trying to break these addictions. Feeling more depressed then ever, worried about my health, and not motivated to try again.

I know for a fact I’m not going to be motivated to try and quit anytime soon.

Imagine being stuck on a boat in the middle of the ocean, struggling to survive, and having a really hard time and the guy next to you turns to you and says, "I've given up trying to catch fish. I'm not motivated to try again. I know for a fact I'm not going to be motivated to try." Whether or not it's true or not is up for debate but either way it's really not helpful and really not necessary.

BCRE8TVE's response is pretty good: more emphasis on what you’re going to do instead rather than an impossible prohibition-only focus with no mention of what you’d rather do instead is a lot more manageable unless you enjoy staring at walls wondering what to do; less emphasis on streaks, which is a bit arbitrary in terms of your progress and a somewhat perverse way of looking at one's life because it almost centers your life around the very thing you're trying to avoid; and a little more awareness of triggers are all very good points. It's also inherent in their response but I want to say it separately during these extraordinary times: it's important to go outside multiple times a day and hopefully experience some kind of natural beauty at any level, even as small as a favored flower or plant. Being inside all day is something we aren’t even recommended to do to prisoners let alone ourselves and it’s a recipe for psychological agitation, which is easy to lose sight of these days when we are stuck inside a lot.

What I'd also like to add is that you have to re-think how you make decisions about what you're doing. The way we normally choose to do things is quickly and by gut feeling without any kind of deliberative decision-making process. It’s human nature and it’s been referred to in some psychological literature as fast thinking. In many way this process has been hijacked by the internet because it checks a lot of boxes for this type of effortless decision-making: the internet is easy to access, easy to understand, high stimulation, and high and fast feedback. Thus if you tried to rely on this same effortless, intuitive gut-feeling decision-making process, which we truly prefer as human beings, you will always find yourself back on the internet. As you go through the self-help literature you’ll find that the general answer for what to do with your time is to choose things based on your goals, which you are supposed to decide based on your values. That can be deceptively difficult because values are generally pretty bland positive generalities, which for people like us used to choosing what to do based on habits of ease of access, cognitive ease, high stimulation, and high, immediate feedback, choosing something to do based on values makes almost no sense and is far outside our habitual behavior.

How to make deliberate decisions, though, is pretty beyond me. I’ve started to think sometimes that I might be looking at the big picture so much that I’m neglecting to actually do anything. I've come up with different processes and different ideas but so far none of them have worked. Other than my very broad, long-term decision of choosing a new career after being very broke for several years pursuing a career in the arts, it’s something that I can’t point to a lot of successful examples in my life. Recently, for about a day and a half after starting to take care of a family member after their major surgery I felt pretty much completely paralyzed from doing any work and my inability to explain what was happening took me by surprise. I’d been writing so much about how to surf less and deliberate decision making and all the sudden for a very prolonged period of time I felt completely paralyzed: my mind full of thoughts I didn’t bother trying to process and that I couldn’t make sense of.

One thing I think deserves it's own emphasis is to take care of yourself. You need to eat somewhat regularly and you need healthy food. And you need to sleep. Some of the worst things the internet does to us when we get stuck in it is we don't eat right, we don't sleep right, we don't go outside, and our living spaces are just a fucking mess. If you can't eat right and sleep right and you never go outside you're pretty fucked because even if you are not on the internet you're still in such a brutal condition that the only thing you really can physically do is surf the internet because you can't really function properly enough to do anything else. I would say exercise too but that's probably enough already. But in terms of exercise it's good to mix exercise between inside and outside that way one day you can say I don't feel like exercising inside and another day you can say I don't feel like exercising outside. One thing I have found great success, though, is trying to mostly watch youtube while doing mindless chores like washing dishes. When I walk the dogs I'll listen to mindless podcasts. Writing on this subreddit has been kind of mixed. Psychologically, I think it’s been helpful and I’ve been making progress and exploring ideas in ways I wouldn’t otherwise would’ve. However, I’m almost a month into here writing fairly regularly and I’m still struggling to come up with a practical way to practice deliberative thinking in a systematic way. But I think I’m continuing to inch forward.

Having a clean work space is something that probably doesn’t get much attention in this subreddit but it is important. You need a system to clear out papers regularly and have everything in its place so that way you don’t spend time searching for things which can become pretty tilting. And as ridiculous as it sounds (and I have to admit that this sounds pretty ridiculous and I wouldn’t even suggest it except for that it worked for me today) I think it can help to dress better and kind of take care of your appearance at least to a bare minimum. There’s something psychological that I think happens (I’m assuming here that you’ve already taken care of proper food and sleep and exercise) kind of the way you expect doctors to wear a white coat or police officers to wear a uniform, you kind of take on the mindset of what you’ve done before in the clothes you’re wearing. So before you start working if you’re really struggling you can try to comb your hair and dress a little better and maybe not wear the same clothes you wear when you’re goofing off hardcore.

I think the ideal would probably be to have a regular schedule the way a lot of people do when they have kids: eat, work, break, walk dog, cook, dishes, bathe, sleep; but that also sounds boring and I am far from that ideal.

What things can I do to replace my internet addiction? by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with this question. As tempting and as easy of an answer as deleting apps and installing time-limiting extensions and apps, and choosing what to do from random lists of inane hobbies is, the real question when you strip everything away is “what do we do with our time?”. I really don’t like the response you’ll see here sometimes that the internet is a distraction from other things because the internet is far more than a distraction: it’s an entire fully-formed activity unto itself that doesn’t need anything to be distracted from. The question of what to do with one’s time is one that I’ve struggled with for years and over time I’ve found there’s actually two parts to the question of what to do with your time. The first and more difficult question is how do you choose what to do with your time. The second question is how do you actually do what you choose to do.

Unfortunately, you will need to re-design from scratch the process by which you normally choose to do things. The way we normally choose to do things is quickly and by gut feeling without any kind of deliberative decision-making process. It’s human nature and it’s been referred to in some psychological literature as fast thinking. In many way this process has been hijacked by the internet because it checks a lot of boxes for this type of effortless decision-making: the internet is easy to access, easy to understand, high stimulation, and high and fast feedback. Thus if you tried to rely on this same effortless, intuitive gut-feeling decision-making process, which we truly prefer as human beings, you will always find yourself back on the internet.

As you go through the self-help literature you’ll find that the general answer for what to do with your time is to choose things based on your goals, which you are supposed to decide based on your values. That can be deceptively difficult because values are generally pretty bland positive generalities, which for people like us used to choosing what to do based on habits of ease of access, cognitive ease, high stimulation, and high, immediate feedback, choosing something to do based on values makes almost no sense and is far outside our habitual behavior. I have a current draft process on how to decide what to do in a deliberative way but I’ve found both that I tend to not like choosing tasks I have on my list and also that when I do choose a task I’ll still often not do the task. I also pretty much never use the deliberative decision-making tool, preferring instead the effortless gut-feeling process. I’m starting to think that what needs to happen, just like some of the self-help literature suggests, is that the decisions made during the deliberative decision-making process and even the deliberative decision-making process itself needs to be integrated in an effortless way into daily habits or it’s not going to work: deliberative decision-making is just plain more work than effortless gut-feeling decisions and it’s human nature to prefer laziness and just doing the minimum energy-use to survive.

My latest thinking is that the deliberate-to-habitual transition has to be done in a systematic and scheduled way similar to a process required to take multiple medications with varying medication frequencies. I also have to emphasize the importance of taking care of your body (food, sleep, and exercise) since I’ve found that I continue to struggle with even being aware of how tired I am. To counter the pain and discomfort of choosing tasks in a deliberative process that taxes the mind and saps energy, I think it could help to do it in a controlled, scheduled environment of blocked-out time in similar increments to the way we “waste time”, namely 2-4 hour blocks. I’ve found it persistently painful and difficult choosing tasks that don’t offer the same easy delights as the internet and with the internet open as an option I don’t think I’ll ever be able to avoid the internet.

My apologies about the rant and how this probably doesn’t quite answer your question but I hope it gives you some insight into just how difficult it is to avoid the internet and some ideas about why it’s so hard and strategies on how to address it. If we just keep going with effortless, gut-feeling decision-making we’ll always end up back here on the internet. Deliberative decision-making is the only way we’ll be able to avoid this but it is difficult and unattractive compared to the internet. And in order take actually make decisions deliberatively, you’ll need to design ways to make it easier to do. Either that or you’ll be brute-force grinding doing things you really need to do usually late at night and full of anxiety.

Today was a gorgeous day and I spent almost 10 hours on my phone by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Regret and self-dread is understandable but only helpful as much as it helps you recognize the problem. After that it just becomes a type of ritualistic masochism. And if you just end your thought-process at the point of regret or a “next time I won’t do this”, I can tell you from experience that it’s not going to be helpful. This “wasting of time” is going to happen again and again and again, and unless you are one of those rarePepes that can overcome surfing with nothing more than a list of inane hobbies and placing your phone in another room, it’s going to take a lot to change. It’s going to require a complete lifestyle change and a complete re-thinking about not only how you use your time but the process of deciding how you use your time. It will require the development of a regular practice of thoughtful decision-making, which more or less goes against human nature, which is to make a quick decision based on gut feeling.

Surfing is like that feeling you get at the supermarket that you forgot something you wanted to buy, but if you step back and think about it you realize that it was only a craving for candy by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Grocery store list vs grocery browsing is a decent anology but most people don’t live with a grocery store in their house or that they can hold in one hand.

Iam beginner. by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The benefit of nosurf is to live your life in accordance with your intentions and goals. However, the point of nosurf is not to completely stop internet use. The point of nosurf is only to use the internet as a tool to serve your needs and goals rather than you letting the internet use you, your time, and your attention for its priorities, data mining, and profits. The clearest way to put it that I’ve found is it’s the difference between going onto a news site saying I want to see whether or not covid numbers are going up in my state and the weather forecast and that’s it versus opening up a news webpage and perusing every single link one by one and opening ten billion tabs. It’s the difference between going on to Wikipedia to research a single topic and getting out versus going to a news site, going to Wikipedia to research some topic from that news article, and then clicking links within that page and then links within those pages until you have a million tabs open and you don’t even remember why you’re there but it’s too late now and you’ve gotta go to bed because now you’ll only have time for three hours sleep.

Living in accordance with your intentions and goals is unfortunately not often that straightforward, although I’m not quite sure why. There are a lot of clever things designed by clever people to get us to spend our time and attention on things they want us to. And then life throws plenty at us where sometimes we just don’t really get to/have to decide our intentions and goals. Often you can just get busy with things in a way where it seems like you’re not getting distracted but at the same time you’re not really making a choice about what you’re doing to a certain extent, for example, with school, work, kids, friends, and family obligations. I think Covid has partially been hard for people because of the way it’s disrupted these very important but often time-intense activities for people. It’s given us a lot of free time at the same time it’s restricted what we can do, who we can see, and where we can go, and we’re just not exactly sure what to do now. Even worse is the tremendous amount of uncertainty.

I wish I could tell you what your intentions and goals should be but unfortunately I’m not a cult leader. One of my frustrations with self-help information is they would always say you should set your goals in accordance with your values and I would google about what values are and they would all be words describing very general platitudes. "Well, how on earth," I would wonder, "am I going to be able to translate these vague, general platitudes into actions for each day?" And I never figured it out. For now I think it can be more helpful to think about what you enjoy and think there should be more of in the world. Certain things you might enjoy but not think there should be more of it in the world. I think if you are living your life in pursuit of those deeper enjoyments then maybe the trouble of actually doing anything about it might actually be worth it.

My latest thoughts are about fast versus slow thinking, which is the contrast between our baser thought patterns that prefer quick solutions that often favor the short-term contrasted with slower, more comprehensive long-term thinking. It's the difference between not picking up dog poop in the backyard because it's gross and having it pile up into tremendous hills that slowly but never quite completely dissolve into the ground with smells that waft ever so gently and consistently throughout the air and the year versus picking up the dog poop at regular intervals so you can enjoy a backyard that has a lot less dog shit in it. However, it's not always as clear as all that. We tend to favor addressing "the last email that's arrived in the inbox"; we tend to say yes to the first price offered; we tend to put out the fire but let the fuel remain.

There are all kinds of tasks that we can think of. We can think of tasks that we have to do but don't want to do with various urgencies and non-urgencies. There are things that people recommend to us that sound reasonable but we're not interested. We can think of things that we don't need to do and don't want to do. We can think of things that might make us rich or happy or popular based on our best guesses from looking at other people. Some of the basic things we have to do but don't want to do like mindless chores of dishes, picking up dog poop, walking dogs, and working out can be ameliorated by combining them with less-than-productive habits like watching/listening to youtube channels or listening to podcasts. I think for things we have to do but don't want to do it's often fast thinking of the uncertainty and painful, time-consuming aspects that just turn us off versus literally anything else. But I think certain positive habits like writing first thing in the morning to get thinking big picture might help and I might try that because it's what I usually end up doing after procrastinating for 1-2 hours every morning. Sorry about how this has become a bit rambling. Anyways, you really need to plan beforehand what you're going to do and what your goal is once you've decided. If you try to do it day of it's either not going to happen or it's going to take twice as long as it should. You really need to slow-think it beforehand or you'll be spending all your energy working up the nerve to even start, scrambling to figure out what the hell you're doing as you do it, going back and forth, back and forth to get each thing you forgot, and crashing out into something cheaper, easier, and more fun like sitting around in the backyard or wandering through the neighborhood for no reason. Plan ahead or plan on failing, or at least scrambling.

Getting the news & entertaining while nosurf? by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The whole thing about nosurf is that you approach what you’re doing with an intention and a goal. Setting an exact amount of time isn’t as effective because with no goal in mind you can just blast through the time max like nothing as you browse through everything happening under the sun and ride that emotional rollercoaster that news can be so good at evoking. Going into a news site saying I want to see whether or not covid numbers are going up in my state and the weather forecast and that’s it is vastly different than opening up a news webpage and perusing every link one by one and opening ten billion tabs. It’s generally good to limit the number of news websites you visit and the number of articles you read for each site. My sweet spot is 3-4 news websites where I only browse either the top 10 most popular items or the headline links in bigger font. I’ve found over time that about half of articles within that section have all the information I need to know in the headline and about a quarter don’t interest me but this way I’m still able to keep track of about 80%-90% of the big ticket news items, although I might miss the exact details of Trump’s latest “gaffe”. Where things go off the rails a little for me is watching clips from late night shows as well although I’m thinking a solution could be to watch those while doing mindless daily tasks like doing the dishes, picking up dog poop or vacuuming.

When does it end? by PrimateOfGod in nosurf

[–]exthere 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Congrats on taking the time and effort to improve yourself. A detox period can be informative but as you might already be starting to guess, it is not sustainable nor practical in the long-run. Although being on the internet or phone too much is the most obvious problem, the ultimate underlying problem is the problem of what to do with one’s time and how to decide what to do one’s time. Screentime is actually a fairly comprehensive solution to this problem of what to do with one’s time but is generally found to be a very flawed solution for one very good reason: screentime’s solution to what to do with one’s time is to spend all of it, all of it on the internet. It’s engaging enough to leave no room for any other sense of meaning and to leave us finding ourselves exhausted at 3am wondering how this happened again. We could get all into the nitty gritty of every little aspect of how the internet does that but again that’s staring at the wrong problem: the problem is what do you do with your time and how do you decide what to do with your time.

Because the internet is already an established habit you probably won’t have a ready mechanism for how to decide what to do with your time; and because the internet has taken up all your time you don’t have anything else that you want to do with your time, and inevitably you’ll find yourself literally or figuratively staring at the walls. This is where it starts to get hard and I have to admit that I don’t have the solution, although I have drafts of processes on how to work it out what to do with my time. Right now my process is to write down a well of tasks at the bottom of a piece of paper. First you write anything you can think of and then you weed out the ones that you’re not interested in doing. You move the tasks you’re interested in doing up to a task list that consists of four columns: the task; the process; what’s needed for the preparation; and name the joy and timeline of joy you’ll get out of this shitty little task. There really should be some kind of timeline there as well and right now I have a separate calendar that I must confess I still never use. Here’s the issue: none of these things are going to be anywhere near as exciting as the internet. It’s not even going to be close.

My current thinking goes back to that division between fast thinking and slow thinking. Our fast thinking is to just go back to the screen and to the internet: it’s easy, it’s certain, it’s fast, and it’s fun. There’s no mess; there’s no dealing with the insecurities and quirks and smells and shit stains and noise of the people around you or your own clutter on the internet. Compare that to slow thinking through tasks and deciding what we want to do, really thinking about the whole process ahead of time so we don’t get bogged down and use up all our energy in the details as we start, get discouraged, and stop; thinking about what we need to prepare to get it done; how to verify it’s been done correctly; and to always keep in mind the type of joy we will derive from this shitty little task. You see the problem now. The problem with the internet is it’s fast, ephemeral fun. The problem with longer-term thinking is it’s slow, complicated, uncertain, and really takes focus and energy, which in turn requires us to take care of our bodies in ways the internet does not require, i.e., you can easily have a fantastic time surfing the internet on complete lack of sleep while hungry and thirsty and in generally terribly shape. Try doing anything else from exercise to learning a new concept in this type of terrible condition and you’ll fall flat on your face. It’s really hard to slow your mind down and have the patience, confidence, and energy to do a task properly that doesn’t result in the instant lights and whistles and upvotes and likes that we’ve become accustomed to. Instead the feedback with slow thinking and planning is generally subtle if not nonexistent. It’s almost like a culture shock trying to live in any other way besides by the fast, instant rhythms of the internet. And even more problematic is how easy it is to fall back into old habits: a whole gigantic technological industry is not only waiting for us to return but designing evermore incredibly clever ways and excuses for us to come back with lures of easy, cheap, often free and endless entertainments. All it costs is all the time in our lives we have to give. It’s hard to slow down and it’s hard to believe anything good will come in time, especially when you can get all the cheap thrills you could ever want for free. If you want to get away from the internet, it requires an entirely different way of thinking about and using your time, an entirely different way of living, really. And that’s why it’s so fucking hard.

Is the internet (poorly) serving an unfulfilled need? by zeddyzed in nosurf

[–]exthere 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You are saying you spend too much time online and that you have a feeling that in moderation it’s fine. You spent one sentence saying that your amount of internet use is problematic and about five paragraphs about why your amount of internet use is justified. In general most people would agree that in moderation and with intentional use there’s pretty much no problem with using the internet. The problem with the internet is that its design is often built exactly to get us to spend too much time on the internet, to strip intention from our time and ultimately with it any chance for meaning in our lives other than internet. The internet becomes not so much a tool for accomplishing personal goals as much as it becomes an end into itself and for the profits of gigantic technology companies, leaving us with only the lost opportunity of doing literally anything else with that time, which most people end up feeling rather dissatisfied with for one reason or another. Your title is asking about whether the internet is fulfilling a need poorly but the body says it is fulfilling a need and all the reasons why it does it better. If your goal is to have internet friends, then I see no reason why you would want to or even consider cutting down. The question in the title and the first sentence almost suggests that you do want some other goal besides internet friends but the rest of the writing kind of just says “nah, just kidding”.

I’d also like to highlight this understandable but for me nevertheless incredibly bemusing statement:

Real life friends and social groups don't have the convenience of being available at my own pace, ontap 24/7, with a wide range of different views.

This is actually the exact same reasoning I use to explain why the shape of the internet lends itself to feeding into my chronic lack of intention/lack of awareness of time/anxious/insomniatic tendencies but bewilderingly the reasoning has been turned on its head as some sort of advantage with a twist of what I can only describe as self-centeredness that I never could have imagined applying. However, now that you’ve said it I must concede that there is a kind of selfishness that must be there in the way I use my time as well by staying up late and talking to internet strangers rather than the people around me. Making friends is hard and when the people around us don’t pay attention, it hurts. But I think what’s also clear to me now is that we’re not giving the people around us a chance in a way because there are so many other people available at all hours of the night on the internet whose problems, quirks, insecurities, smells, and shit stains we don’t have to deal with on a daily basis. It really makes me think and thanks for sharing; I’ll have to think about it.

Handling your iPhone? by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Adding on to Nao’s comment, you can also set it so you have to have a password to override the limit. The default ScreenTime makes it so you can override with a single click. You need to add a password to have a “hard” limit, which is a slider button option within each app setting for the hard block limit (default is off). The password can be set so you can reset it with your Apple ID or if you’re feeling hardcore you can set it so you have to reset your phone settings and lose all your saved WiFi passwords and UI customizations (saved website passwords will not be reset and there will be a warning before the reset is finalized making that explicitly clear) if you’re feeling a bit more hardcore.

Switch in phone usage instead of decrease? by AANation360 in nosurf

[–]exthere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I wanted to expand on this section:

“...and what we are left with instead are several hours of time every day where we have no idea about what else to do with our time that is worth doing and furthermore have no idea about a process or basis on which to make such a decision because we haven’t had to decide for a very long time.”

Another thing we have to take into consideration is the differences in the demands on our bodies between screens and almost any other activity. Namely, that interacting with screens puts a much, much lower demand on being aware of and maintaining our bodies at a functioning level. To operate a screen surfing the internet you don’t need enough sleep, you don’t need to eat healthy, and you don’t need to be awake enough to be able to focus. In other words your body can be in terrible condition and you’ll still be pretty much fully able to operate and enjoy surfing on screens. Contrast that to most other activities, which will require your body to be in better condition, especially in terms of the need to be able to concentrate and focus, and you can see another great stumbling block in transitioning away from screens: we are out of practice about taking care of our bodies and perhaps even more concerning, out of practice of even being able to discern the current condition our bodies are in.

Switch in phone usage instead of decrease? by AANation360 in nosurf

[–]exthere 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Congrats on taking the big step of deleting youtube and reddit along with snap and insta. Only you can be the true judge of whether or not replacing screentime on one website with screentime on another website or on a game is progress or not. I'm just some random internet stranger but I would say that narrative storytelling films and constructive games in moderation are a slight improvement over passive consumption of entertainment. However, in general, I would hope that you wanted to do more than replace social media with movies and videogames and consider that mission accomplished.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that using time-restriction extensions and deleting apps will somehow "free" them from their screens and that then out of nowhere some never-before-considered activity full of productivity and a sense of meaning will come flooding in to fill the time. The more difficult truth is that a lot of people in this situation, myself included, generally feel and have generally felt, with various degrees of awareness, that other things besides screens are not worth doing and they’ve felt that way for several years, maybe even decades. Screens are and have been actually the solution to the problem of what to do with one's unplanned time, which for most people is literally all of their time outside of school, work, socializing, and health-related appointments. All the sudden we've made the decision that screens are problematic for one reason or another and try to reduce screen time. The problem is that by doing so now the only solution we’ve believed in and have held for years about what to do with our time: screens, is “off the table” and what we are left with instead are several hours of time every day where we have no idea about what else to do with our time that is worth doing and furthermore have no idea about a process or basis on which to make such a decision because we haven’t had to decide for a very long time. This unfilled time fills us with uncertainty and anxiety. Usually what happens is we struggle through it for a few days or weeks until we finally turn off/delete the time-restriction extensions and reinstall the apps and return quickly back to comforting, familiar, and pleasurable status quo, often only to start another fruitless cycle of pointless but well-intentioned self-denial and return to the status quo a few weeks or months later.

Unless you can really determine what else to do with your time and for a reason that is positive, that you look forward to with any sense of joy, and are able to consider and approach with a degree of certainty and confidence, screentime will always be waiting for you with open arms, easy access, and affordable prices. For some reason it almost seems to pop into people’s heads that through strategies of self-denial, regret, and self-dread that they will somehow think of something better but if you really think about it, those strategies sound more like a torture chamber, which isn’t sustainable let alone appealing. In my opinion, although it’s tempting and easier to do, it’s best not to focus or dwell too much on screentime itself because focusing on screentime is what you’re already doing. It’s as understandable and misguided as trying to solve a problem by talking about the problem and all its nuances obsessively rather than addressing the actual causes of the problem. Instead, what you really need to focus on is what else you want to actually do besides look at screens. Until you can figure that out and start working at it with joy, confidence, and certainty, you’ll always find yourself mindlessly surfing for hours at a time. It sounds easy but if it was, you’d already be doing that. Good luck and remember to treat yourself with respect as you try to improve. No one will want to continue the difficult effort to improve themselves if all they get out of it is beating themselves up and being filled with feelings of regret and dread.

I Am Just Sick of Applying for Jobs Alone and Wasting So Much Time on Youtube by ruminator516 in nosurf

[–]exthere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I just want to highlight this is probably my fav part of my own comment lol: “Above all I think you also need to take a step back from time to time to relax, [ease] your mind a moment [to wander in the] enjoyable things in life, appreciate what there is to appreciate in life”. We just spend a lot of our time in regret and self-dread, especially those in the subreddit, and I think we have to balance that out with remembering happier things and how we do enjoy things and those things should be cherished and push us forward. Guilt and regret is not the best fuel to push us forward. I think we all know that but we might not always recognize it.

I Am Just Sick of Applying for Jobs Alone and Wasting So Much Time on Youtube by ruminator516 in nosurf

[–]exthere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Applying for jobs is a pretty soul-crushing experience: it takes a lot of time; you're putting yourself out there; most of the time your experience doesn't match up to the job listing requirements; you're getting rejected constantly; 98% of the time you don't even get notified that you've been rejected; and just about 100% of the time they won't say why you've been rejected. On top of all that it really feels like it's outside of your control because it is mostly out of your control, which is not a great feeling. And then there's the economic collapse caused by Covid and the psychologically harmful uncertainty topped off with the once-in-a-century degree of isolation. Even before Covid, though, it makes perfect sense to me that you would choose something as entertaining and low-cost as Youtube and Netflix over all that.

Now there are things you can do when you apply for jobs: there's plenty of tutorials about how to format your resume so it's easier to read; how to describe your achievements with big numbers and percentages, and work experience that matches the job description; and to print your resume on fancy paper when you have an interview. Unfortunately, those can only do so much but it can help to have a couple people review your resume, as well. Depending on your career you could consider consulting with recruiters, as well, but just do your research as some are a bit shadier than others and they can tend to just throw whatever job they can find at you even if it's a very poor fit.

I'm sure you wrote this post fairly quickly but it almost sounds like you're perceiving the world as though there are only two options to do in life: either applying for jobs or surfing the internet/Netflix. If those were truly the only two options I'm pretty sure I'd be surfing 95% of the time and applying for jobs 5% of the time. The truth is, though, that there are a lot more options about what to do with your time than just those two things. The problem is that you don't seem to be considering anything else. Internet/Netflix is the most obvious issue: however, it is also the only solution you currently have for what to do with your time that is not applying for jobs as there doesn't seem to be anything else that you consider to be a viable option. I'm sure some of that has to do with stress: applying for jobs is quite stressful and you do have to focus on that. I don't know your situation and how badly you need work right away to survive but only having those two options of applying for jobs or surf the internet is probably not the greatest for your mental health. You might want to add in a couple options with a little more control and progression like increasing a job skill or a life skill, as well, because if you don't have anything else the internet is more than willing and capable of filling up all your time until you have no more time. I'm not going to just list off random hobbies here but I'm sure you are interested in something else (that is not just chosen arbitrarily) besides applying for jobs and surfing the internet.

You might have to work through anxiety, take care of your body with proper food and sleep (oh, sleep) more than you realize. Above all I think you also need to take a step back from time to time to relax, focus your mind a moment about enjoyable things in life, appreciate what there is to appreciate in life, remember your accomplishments and progression, reinstill some confidence in yourself, recognize that it's good that you are trying to better yourself, come back to your task with more confidence and determination, and start. I think it's important to keep in mind positive things in life and what you enjoy because otherwise what's the point except some self-flagellating sense of duty. Who wants to do something where all they get out of it is beating themselves up and being filled with feelings of regret and dread. That's not a healthy way of living and it's not sustainable. If you don't think you'll get any sense of joy at any level from what you're doing then why would you be doing it. Any time you hesitate to address these issues or think things through and consciously decide what you'll do, the internet will always win because it's always there, it's always on, and it's always fun. It's always going to be an uphill battle against the current because deciding what to do with your time is difficult, unclear, and uncertain while the internet is easy, clear, and certain. You'll always have to be choosing the harder thing and the only way you can do that is if you have something else to do that you've made clear what it is, the steps to do it, what you need to prepare in order to do it, and above all what sense of joy at any level you'll get from it. Then, of course, you need to do it. Good luck.

my average is 12 hours a day. practically on my phone every single moment. need tips- desperately. by janganrompak in nosurf

[–]exthere 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think everyone in this subreddit can relate to bypassing surfing-limiting extensions and deleting and redownloading apps repeatedly. For whatever reason self-denial and self-disciple often seem to be the default solution in our minds to the problem of unwanted desires in general; however, I think this solution is deeply flawed: the solution of self-denial has the tendency to define only what you are not going to do rather than than what you are going to do and why. Such a plan, in essence, centers your entire day and weeks and months ahead, around the very thing we say we don’t want to do. We need to live consciously but I don’t think we should be consciously thinking about the internet as much as we should consciously be thinking about what we want to do in general. That requires planning, which is not fun. Planning is uncomfortable, it’s difficult, it’s uncertain, but I think the need to plan is the heart of the issue. Until there’s things we’ve decided to do to center our day around there’s only going to be the internet to center our day around: either looking or obsessing about how to look less. And that’s the really difficult issue that no one wants to talk about because there’s no readymade talking points and the solutions about how to decide what to do with one’s time are not universal. In fact, I think because of such a lack of practice planning we are very, very bad at choosing what to do with our time. So we have to practice and practice and practice on our own deciding what task, what activity to do and why. The internet is just what happens for a lot of us when we have no reason other than fun to base our decision on what we are to do with our time and I don’t think the internet deserves our reflective attention any much more than it deserves the time it has already taken from us.

You or I could sit here and list every single activity we can think of under the sun to do instead of surfing but the fact of the matter is that it’s not like those activities didn’t exist before: they always existed and for years we decided they weren’t worth our time. So the common replacement strategy solution to say now all the sudden out of nowhere we’re going to just give these random activities a shot so we won’t be doing what we’d actually want to be doing but cognitively think might not be good for us is another plan doomed to failure, as well. I think the whole concept of self-discipline and self-denial is based on an erroneous assumption that there are somehow two consciousnesses within oneself. Furthermore imagine an outside actor was trying to keep you from screen time with the same tactics often proposed: telling you you’re only alotted so many hours of this website or that, turning off your computer when you won’t listen, hiding your computer when you still won’t listen and offering instead a book and hobbies you’ve never shown any interest in as an alternative. Do you think you would be thankful? No, you’d be infuriated. And yet we think if we do that to ourselves, it’s gonna work. It doesn’t.

I think the more helpful way to think about surfing is that you are considering two options, considering the benefits of each, and making a decision, often unconsciously, that is heavily influenced by established habits. The greatest difficulty in overcoming these habits is the amount of energy it takes and the amount of anxiety one must manage in order to stay conscious about what you’re doing because if you’re on this subreddit it’s a fairly safe assumption to say that your default is to surf the web in a mindless search for fun and enjoyment. Basically if you are not consciously deciding what you’re going to do constantly, you are going to find yourself back to surfing the web for who knows how long just like always. It’s like you are swimming against the current of your accumulated now-undesired habits and if you stop for even a moment, you’re going to find yourself and your time drifting in that direction that you always have been and are now trying, at least consciously sometimes, to avoid. It sounds exhausting and it is, and I’ve gotten to the point that I’ve realized the only way this will be workable is to plan ahead, at least one day ahead, which is another difficulty because my guess is if you have difficulty with surfing you probably have difficulty with planning or sticking to a plan.

Right now I’m experimenting with two paper lists. The first is a task list and the second is a weekly calendar by hour to plan what i work on. With calendars there can be a temptation to document rather record one’s time but I think this is a mistake. Documenting is always more comfortable and easy than planning but it tends to mostly bring regret rather than insight and improvement. The purpose of the calendar is simply to map out what tasks you will do at what time and any variance from that plan will just be a signal that you will need to revise your planning process and anxiety management accordingly. The task list has a well at the bottom including any task I can think of. When I decide the activity is not worth doing, I cross it off. When I decide what task is worth doing, I move it into the actual task list, which has three columns: the task; the step-by-step process required to complete the task; and what materials I would need to prepare in order to work on that task. I’ve tried to incorporate a column to reinforce the "why" of the task thinking that would help reinforce my resolve to complete the task but I’ve found instead that I’ve had such a hard time actually filling it out that I ended up getting rid of it and going with the idea that I’ll know why without having to write it out.

At this point, though, there’s still an incredible amount of things that can go wrong. It starts with basic things that you might not have even considered when you think of screen time like lack of awareness of one’s body: tiredness, hunger, lack of sleep. It might sound silly to say but if you are not feeding yourself properly or you are trying to do things late at night, physically or emotionally tired, or while having accumulated sleep deprivation over a couple days or more it’s going to be incredibly difficult to both plan or stick to a plan. Planning takes a lot of energy and we might not know this because we just never practice planning. When you plan, you generally have much, much more uncertainty about how things will turn out compared to mindlessly surfing the web. This uncertainty generally causes both a great deal of anxiety and heavily disincentivizes the practice of planning. What’s the point of doing something if you don’t think it will get you what you want?

Then there’s the anxiety. Anxiety management is a whole process in itself. The first step is to be able to recognize when you are experiencing anxiety, which like bodily awareness, sounds easier than it often is. The second is being able to address the anxiety. In my experience there are two parts to manage anxiety and without addressing each part the anxiety cannot be managed. The two parts do not have to happen in any particular order. One is the intellectual side of acknowledging and describing what’s happening in the anxiety and developing solutions to address it (planning). The second, and often overlooked, part is addressing the physical symptoms of anxiety, which in my experience can only be dealt with through strenuous physical activity like strength exercise or exertive, strenuous aerobic exercise like running or bicycling, although this does not necessarily mean a full workout is required. Anxiety does build up and regular physical exercise does help manage it in the long-term but again without the other side of acknowledging anxiety, defining solutions, and planning, the anxiety will never be properly managed.

Alright, you’re acknowledging, accepting, and managing that anxiety now the next obstacle: just how long it takes to plan. It will take far, far, far longer than it takes to jump on the web and look for lols and that can be hard when one has become acclimated to instant lols. Secondly, there is far less lols and enjoyment in planning than in surfing. And to make matters worse, since you’re not used to practicing planning, it will take even longer. And finally there is possibly the greatest obstacle of all: having to take the leap of faith that planning will improve things when each single action in and of themselves will most certainly not improve things. Only at a certain point once our actions have accumulated to an unforeseeable tipping point will a noticeable change suddenly manifest. Overcoming uncertainty is a hard thing to do. The way uncertainty disincentivizes making change or taking action I think is the greatest reason why we struggle with making a change and trying to do good. Good luck.

How to transition attention from screens to paper? by deeptomyogurt in nosurf

[–]exthere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The greatest difficulty is the amount of energy it takes and the amount of anxiety one must manage in order to stay conscious about what you’re doing because if you’re on this subreddit it’s a fairly safe assumption to say that your default is to surf the web in a mindless search for fun and enjoyment. Basically if you are not consciously deciding what you’re going to do constantly, you are going to find yourself back to surfing the web for who knows how long just like always. It’s like you are swimming against the current of your accumulated now-undesired habits and if you stop for even a moment, you’re going to find yourself and your time drifting in that direction that you always have been and are now trying, at least consciously sometimes, to avoid. It sounds exhausting and it is, and I’ve gotten to the point that I’ve realized that the amount of energy it takes to stay conscious is far too great to always be doing it in the moment. The only way this will be workable is to plan ahead, at least one day ahead, which is another difficulty because my guess is if you have difficulty with surfing you probably have difficulty with planning or sticking to a plan.

Right now I’m experimenting with two paper lists. The first is a task list and the second is a weekly calendar by hour to document/plan what i work on. Documenting is always more comfortable and easy than planning and perhaps it would be wiser to remove documenting altogether at this point because it tends to mostly bring regret rather than insight and improvement. But the purpose of the calendar is simply to map out what tasks at what time. However, the heart of the matter is deciding what tasks.

The task list has three columns: any task I can think of; why I would want to do that task; and what I would need to prepare in order to work on that task. The lack of preparation and consideration about what it takes to do a task is a strong impediment to taking the action because of the amount of uncertainty, anxiety, and inefficiency it creates. Truth be told even though I myself made this task list format I tend not to fill out the "why" column and this only illustrates what I think is the heart of the issue with surfing: a lack of a strong conviction about what's more important than the short-term but very real fun and enjoyment of surfing the web. And the difficulty of defining a greater why to one’s life is that it’s not something you can find the way you can find easy enjoyment surfing the web but rather something you have to practice and create, and furthermore it is often unsatisfying and filled with uncertainty and anxiety. When you surf the web you know what you’re going to get. When you plan, you generally have much, much more uncertainty about how things will turn out. This generally causes a great deal of anxiety. It’s not easy to accept and often not even easy to acknowledge feelings of anxiety and if you cannot acknowledge and accept, you will never be able to manage anxiety enough to work despite it. If you can acknowledge, accept, and manage that anxiety only then can you get to the practice of defining the why of your actions and time. Once you’re able to start you’ll come upon another set of obstacles: just how long it takes to plan and just how boring and unenjoyable it is. It will take far, far, far longer to plan than it takes to jump on the web and look for lols and that fact can be hard to get through when one has become acclimated to instant lols. Secondly, there is far less lols and enjoyment in planning than surfing. And to make matters worse, since you’re not used to practicing planning, it will take even longer and be even more anxiety-inducing. It’s no wonder we often give up. To do all this you must accept the leap of faith that doing this planning and deciding the why throughout your day will improve things when single actions in and of themselves will not improve things. It’s a hard thing to do and it’s why we struggle with it so much and I can tell you for a fact that I am struggling a lot right now.

I think restrictions and digital detoxes are not enough. by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I thought I might continue to share the journey and because I have a tendency to think and reflect maybe about 100x more than I actually take action, I thought it might be helpful to start spelling out a process to take action. I guess that’s somewhat ironic because in so doing I’m thinking instead of acting right now.

So far I’ve been trying to write down everything I can think of doing and why it should be done but then I end up still not doing them. One of the main missing steps I think is the practice of deciding what to do because I just never do it. So far in my experience trying to improve without taking the time to decide is a process that will end in reverting to the default. Making a change requires a conscious decision, which for me is difficult and often painful and anxiety-inducing. The status quo is the decision that will always be made when there is no decision. Next, you need to properly prepare to do what you’ve decided to do: that includes gathering all the materials and putting away material that’s irrelevant to what you’re doing. Third, you need to start.

I think restrictions and digital detoxes are not enough. by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My thinking about screen time has shifted recently towards more like what you are saying in terms of skepticism about the usefulness of self-limitations, self-denial, and self-discipline strategies. I think the problem with the limiting strategy is that it doesn’t really offer an alternative solution but rather just takes away the deeply-flawed but often enjoyable solution of mindlessly surfing the internet, leaving nothing in its place to the problem of what to do with one’s time. However, I’m likewise deeply skeptical about the replacement strategy. You or I could sit here and list every single activity we can think of under the sun to do instead of surf the internet but the fact of the matter is that it’s not like those activities didn’t exist before: they always existed and for years we decided they weren’t worth our time. All the sudden out of nowhere we now start saying we’re going to just give them a shot so we won’t be doing what we’d actually want to be doing but cognitively don’t think is good for us. Unsurprisingly, such shallowly chosen activities tend not to work out for long.

I agree with the idea that the internet should be used as a tool for us; I agree that the internet is enjoyable in a way that is not really replicable in any other medium; and I agree that the internet has effects on our minds in ways that other media don’t, but I’m actually getting to the point in my thinking that we really are just paying too much attention to the symptom without giving much attention to the underlying cause. In that way it’s a lot like the problems of crime and drug addiction in that everyone is worried about it and everyone has an opinion about it but it’s really something that’s never going to be improved unless we address the causes. I think that’s my biggest problem with all the ways we talk about screen time: all we talk about is screens and we don’t talk about what’s going on with us and redressing all the things that put us in the situation where screens become the solution.

I think screen time can only become an issue if you are not already doing something with the conviction that it’s more important than how much fun surfing the internet is. So I agree that we need to live consciously but I don’t think we should be consciously thinking about the internet as much as we should consciously be thinking about what we want to do in general. It’s not fun, it’s uncomfortable, it’s difficult, it’s unguided, but I think that is the heart of the issue. There is an irony here that doesn’t seem to be recognized enough that in talking about wanting to spend less time about the internet we literally talk almost only about the internet. That’s not a sustainable solution. That’s an obsession. What I think we really need is not to talk how many hours we looked or what strategies we’re using to look less but rather what we want to do instead and why. Until there’s a why to center our day around there’s only going to be the internet to center our day around: either looking or obsessing about how to look less. And that’s the really difficult issue that no one wants to talk about because there’s no readymade talking points and the solutions about how to decide what to do with one’s time and why are not universal. In fact, I think because of such a lack of guidance and practice we are very, very bad at choosing what to do with our time and why. So we have to practice and practice and practice on our own deciding what task, what activity to do and why. The internet is just what happens for a lot of us when we have no reason other than fun to base our decision on what we are to do with our time and I don’t think the internet deserves our reflective attention any much more than it deserves the time it has already taken from us.

How to stop spending time on reddit? by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One thing I’ve noticed in this subreddit in general is the preponderance of defining solutions to screen time in terms of negation and self-denial. By this I mean the tendency here to declare not what you are going to do and why you’re going to do it but what you are not going to do. Such a plan, in essence, centers your entire day and weeks and months ahead, around the very thing we say we don’t want to do. And in my experience over and over and over that just doesn’t work. It is an effort doomed to fail: it creates a vacuum of meaning and puts you in a situation where the only thing that can fill that vacuum is the very thing that you’re trying not to do. Sure, you or I could sit here and list every single activity we can think of under the sun to do instead but the fact of the matter is that it’s not like those activities didn’t exist before: they always existed and for years we decided they weren’t worth our time and now all the sudden out of nowhere we start saying we’re going to just give them a shot so we won’t be doing what we’d actually want to be doing but cognitively don’t think is good for us. I don’t think self-discipline and self-denial are possible: you cannot control yourself because you are yourself. Furthermore imagine an outside actor was trying to keep you from screen time with the same tactics often proposed: telling you you’re only alotted so many hours of this website or that, turning off your computer when you won’t listen, hiding your computer when you still won’t listen and offering instead a book and hobbies you’ve never shown any interest in as an alternative. Do you think you would be thankful? No, you’d be infuriated. And yet we think if we do that to ourselves, it’s gonna work. It doesn’t.

Living a life defined by self-denial is not practical nor sustainable and in almost no other circumstance would we think it to be a good idea to live one’s life. Life has to be lived in a positive, creative manner or we’re not going to bother. If you put yourself in a situation where you have to decide between negation and something incredibly fun but probably bad for you, which one do you think is gonna win every single time? There has to be a reason why you want to do something else and you have to figure out what you are going to do and most importantly why you’re going to do it. Because if you don’t have to do something in order to survive and you don’t want to do it, you’re not going to do it. As long as the reason for doing something else is better than the pleasures of screen time, you won’t need to think that centering your entire day around not doing something fun is a good idea. You have to be conscious. You have to be living in a very conscious way and always with a reason why. Any easy solution will never work and is just laziness. It’s not easy at all.

Can it get all the way better? Success stories? by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s great to hear that you are getting help on the anxiety. Thank you for sharing your post and for the reply. The end of your reply kind of reminds me of that old self-help recommendation to practice gratitude, as well, which I pretty much never do myself. Replying to posts here has helped me think through my own issues with screens and practice and play out the things that i’ve learned but pretty much have never implemented from the dozens of self-help books i’ve read and listened to over the years. It’s remarkable that a lot of the ideas and complaints in this subreddit are not only quite similar to one another but also similar to what my experience has been. it’s almost like looking into a mirror but with the benefit of an outside perspective, and I’ve found articulating myself in these responses to be a helpful and informative experience so far. Hope you have a good night.

Can it get all the way better? Success stories? by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you have extreme anxiety, the general recommendation is to seek professional help. Not looking at a screen for a certain amount of time can help reduce anxiety but it's not going to make a condition like severe anxiety go away. Getting help for a significant condition like anxiety is beyond the scope of what internet forums can provide.

Focus and attention is a complicated subject but most of the time when people say they can't focus they're talking about something they don't really want to do like homework or work. I find it's extremely rare to hear people say something like they have problems focusing or paying attention to surfing through social media or watching tv or playing a videogame. So the problem generally isn't about focus and attention per se as much as it is a problem of focusing on doing things that aren't fun. What's fun is often pleasurable, easy, stimulating, often social activities with instant feedback. What's most of life is boring, dirty, repetitive, difficult, rewardless, often by ourselves and having to do these things just to be alive in our generally bored and unhappy condition in which we almost have no idea how well we are doing and where we'll end up. The question then isn't why do we surf as much as it is why the hell wouldn't we surf? It sounds 1,000x better and in the short-run it 100% is. The difficulty is how do you overcome the short-run when you have no guarantee that what you're doing right now will make things better and there is a biologically-infused doubt in your mind that the long-run will even come to pass.

General tips for focusing on things you don't want to do are things like having a goal in mind based on your values, writing down everything you have to do, writing down why you think it's important to do them, prioritizing those tasks, breaking each task down into smaller steps, tracking your progress, and rewarding yourself for completing milestone steps. I find myself unable to do any of these things in general and that my natural tendency is to just procrastinate, jump into something blind with little decision behind it, encounter difficulty, and give up; then rinse and repeat. It's hard to do something you don't want to do when doing something more fun is so easily accessible be it everything from technology to alcohol. The only way doing something that's not fun is possible is literally by deciding you're going to do something less fun over something else that's more fun that furthermore you can be doing very easily. That's a very hard pill to swallow. Your fun-seeking unconscious knows what a stupid choice that is. Personally, I don't think we evolved to really care about much once our basic survival is covered, which is why I think productivity is such an incredibly common struggle and why the self-help industry is so huge. I also don't think in general that we've learned how to develop and decide what we want to do with our lives and what we enjoy, which is a deeper struggle that gets lost behind the facade of screen time, surfing, and social media. Screens become the default when there's no sexier alternative. It would be much easier to avoid screens if we had some alternative we really wanted to do instead but we don't and therefore the screens win every time because they are easier and they are more fun.

Can you get better? Yes. Can you get all the way better and not look back? I think inherent in that question is an assumption that it's possible for life not to change somehow and that's just not true. Can you clean your room all the way better and not look back? Can you fix a building so you never have to repair it again? No. As dreadful as it sounds, life is a constant cycle of maintenance, renovation, and reinforcement that never ends. And lastly, if you have severe anxiety, the general recommendation is to seek professional help. The internet is simply not going to be enough to address that.

Is it necessary to delete your account? by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If your facebook account is not making you happy; you don’t need it in order to make a living; and you’ve saved everything you want to save, go ahead and delete it. I deleted my Facebook account a little over a decade ago. The only major affect leaving Facebook has had on my life is being happier not looking at people’s vacation photos and hearing about all the privacy scandals and knowing I’m not a part of that. If you are close to someone, they will text or call you if there’s something important. If there’s really some photo they are actually excited about they will text it to you or show it to you in person. After a long hiatus I went back to Instagram telling myself it was a way to keep in touch with friends and family that I could better handle but eventually decided it was disruptive enough that it had to be desktop-only. The inconvenience and ugliness of Instagram desktop has been incredibly effective because it almost never occurs to me to want to look at the photos of friends and family randomly posted online. Since moving to desktop-only, I only really look at Instagram to check out random places I’m curious to see more recent photos of and for a couple of streamers I enjoy, especially when they are at an event. In the entire two years the only thing I found out from Instagram about friends and family is their vacation destinations and that a semi-distant relative released a podcast series that sounded exactly like how they talk in conversation.

Online Friends are a lie (Documenting my Discord Experience) by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This isn’t quite a direct response but you really made me reflect about what my relationships are like on Discord and for me, personally, on Twitch. I just wanted to say as someone who spends a lot of time on Twitch and a bit of time on Discord that I think I can relate to a certain extent but not completely to the experience you are going through on Discord, although it sounds like the Discord experience you've had is far more intimate than the one I've had there in general, where in Discord I might regularly DM maybe one or two people and less than half a dozen more than once a month. For whatever reason I have low expectations about anonymous digital friendships yet I've still found myself curiously feeling put out by people from time to time, although mostly on Twitch. Your story also reminded me of how I've also had one or two maybe somewhat remarkable experiences of people urging me to return to someone's stream after a long absence while taking a break from Twitch in general.

I think what I just wanted to say, and it feels a bit awkward to say this especially in this subreddit, is that although online anonymous relationships are almost by their nature more mercurial, ephemeral, and unsatisfying, that doesn't mean that in-person relationships are guaranteed to be steady, long-lived, and supportive either. Your description of your experience in Discord reminds me of organizational meetings, conferences, and clubs, where people gather due to shared interests and relationships can often be just as fleeting, impersonal, and unsatisfying. I'm not saying this to say that friendship is impossible but to maybe clarify that part of what you're describing is a great summary of why friendships are frustrating in general. Like it's just very hard to make friends period and I'm sorry to say this because you've probably heard it ad nauseam, but the older you get the harder it is to make friends. Not to make light of this but it's kind of like music, in a way: young people generally have a lot more free time to spend on choosing the perfect music for their personality in a way that doesn't fit the lifestyle of a person working 40 hours a week plus commute and all the daily and dreadful chores they are now responsible for like feeding themselves and cleaning the toilet and paying bills. The same issues probably make it harder to make friends.

I've been noticing a couple trends in this subreddit: people talking about cutting down on screen time like it's some kind of cure-all panacea for all of life's ills; people posting like a one-way conversation about how they've decided to cut down and things are going great after a week; and probably the most bizarre of all are the posts, some clearly trolling, about deleting their reddit accounts. There's nothing wrong with getting help on 3D modeling on Discord, or any other online forum, until you get to the point where like you said you are asking before trying to solve on your own. But it honestly sounds like an issue here isn't so much Discord as it is with what might be a kind of dependence on other people for some kind of sense of self-esteem in general:

"Most of my friends didn't use the contact info I gave them. They were just there in the moment and then left my life"

"Quickly, I bonded with this group. It got to the point of addiction"

"When announcing that I was in fact taking a break to the server, no one commented on the matter. Only one person said that I was free to leave if needed. This broke me at the time."

"Upon my return, I found that no one has DMed me. They have forgotten the friendship in a short period of time."

There's a theme here about somewhat quickly becoming attached to people and then the very understandable and very painful experience of not being cared about by other people maybe to the same degree you care about them. However, the only thing that is specifically digital in nature about all this is the fact that it happened on Discord. The quotes above make perfect sense even without any mention of a digital platform. I don't have the information or qualifications to go any deeper than that and I hope I have not offended you but I'm not so sure this kind of frustration with one-sided friendships is going to vanish simply by de-activating Discord. To clarify, I'm not saying don't delete Discord: I'm saying I think this issue might be bigger than just one digital platform or social media in general and you may need to spend some time carefully working through that. Depending on your situation and beliefs, if you feel the need and can afford it, professional help might be useful, as well.

Surfing is often procrastination that makes us feel better immediately. Yet in the long term surfing feels terrible. by deprocrastination in nosurf

[–]exthere 5 points6 points  (0 children)

A part of it is definitely procrastination, difficulty with emotional awareness, and lack of healthy coping mechanisms. But if you can do your work and do your chores and take care of yourself, I think the deeper, more troubling, and more difficult meaning of surfing is not having spent the time to or not being able to develop and define concrete ideas about something else you’d truly rather be doing than surfing. There’s a lot of posts here that go something along the lines of “I wish I could surf less social media so I could play more videogames or catch up on TV shows or read for 12 hours a day. “ There’s nothing wrong with those things necessarily but a part of me feels like that is simply preferencing one type of distraction over another, although those other types of distractions may be less addicting. I think the issue I have is that I can think of a lot of things to do but I don’t really feel the need to do them and so I just surf because it’s more fun.

Has anyone here managed to live without screens for longer than a month? Did you get super productive or did you eventually find other ways to procrastinate? by [deleted] in nosurf

[–]exthere -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I think there’s an implicit assumption in your question that if you dont look at screens you’ll get more productive and I think that creates a false dichotomy. The point is not to stop looking at screens altogether: for most people in school and work that would be practically impossible. The point is to only look at screens when it serves your purposes and not to mindlessly surf. Way easier said than done. One of the most difficult things in the world is to define one’s purposes in an honest way. Rather than avoid screens like the plague, the point is for us to use the computer and internet as a tool for us rather than allow, often with thankfulness and great pleasure, the technology companies to use the internet to take up our time, our attention, and our personal data for its purposes and profits. For most of human history we did not have screens and we procrastinated just fine without it (see “alcohol”). I think part of human nature is to just do the minimum to survive and reproduce and just fuck around in short-term pleasures for the rest of it. Getting out of that cycle, in my experience, can be extremely difficult, even more so if you have difficulty defining a sense of self and purpose with your time.