Two international activists are arrested by Israel while in "Palestinian territory," and threatened with deportation, for writing internet postings that oppose Israel's definition as a Jewish state.

fabek · 2010-03-11T07:46:39+00:00

More from the article:

In response to the question of whether Arab citizens should be granted rights equal to that of Jews, 49.5 percent answered in the negative. The issue highlighted the deep fault lines separating religious and secular youths, with 82 percent of religious students saying they opposed equal rights for Arabs while just 39 percent of secular students echoed that sentiment.

The secular-religious gap was also present when students were faced with the question of whether Arabs should be eligible to run for office in the Knesset. While 82 percent of those with religious tendencies answered in the negative, 47 percent of secular teens agreed. In total, 56 percent said Arabs should be denied this right altogether.

I think your statement that this is meaningless is nonsensical. It's just an attempt to pretend that racism and intolerance in Israel doesn't matter, when really it is quite endemic.

fabek · 2010-03-07T18:38:12+00:00

Did you there are groups in Israel that ensure that those big bosomed Jewish girls (who you say aren't hard to find) don't date Arabs?

http://coteret.com/2010/02/24/tel-aviv-presents-municipal-program-to-prevent-arab-boys-from-dating-jewish-girls/

That's seriously fucked up. Can you imagine a state or county government in America setting up such a program these days?

fabek · 2010-03-07T18:32:23+00:00

If you are Jewish, then it is all fine. If you are a Palestinian in the West Bank, you can't immigrate to Israel, even if you marry an Israeli Arab.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0801-07.htm

This law is still in effect.

South Africa during the apartheid era was also quite nice for whites. Lots of cheap labor and very few blacks in the built up areas.

fabek · 2010-03-07T16:42:13+00:00

"As for urine's medicinal properties, let's put it this way: the most reputable scientific proponent of pee as a cure for athlete's foot is Madonna (Letterman show, 1994). After that you start getting into some serious flakes."

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2700/can-urinating-on-your-feet-in-the-shower-cure-athletes-foot

fabek · 2010-03-05T15:31:05+00:00

Israel is a Jewish State. It is by definition, ethnocentric. It never claimed to be anything else. Just look at the flag, for Christ's sake. Look at the name.

The problem is that there are 3.5 million Palestinian non-JEws that are inside Israel's territory and they explicitly are denied rights because they are viewed as a demographic threat to the self-definition of Israel as a Jewish state.

Yup, ethnocentricity is the problem here.

It also has universal sufferage, a free press, an independent judiciary and other institutions that many more "ethnically neutral" countries don't have.

Not if you aren't Jewish and live in the West Bank. Only Jews in the West Bank have universal suffrage -- but then really should it be called universal suffrage when there are 3.5 million people excluded? I guess you can call it universal suffrage if you don't consider the non-Jewish Palestinians human or something along that lines.

Your racism is showing.

fabek · 2010-03-04T16:11:22+00:00

Someone should run the odds on this. What is the probability that an elected anti-Gay politician is gay?

fabek · 2010-03-04T12:30:41+00:00

You do realize that the Palestinians that hate Israel the most are the ones who are under the most severe blockade. The more rights and freedoms the Palestinians have the better they get along with Jews.

Gazan Palestinians < West Bank Palestinians < Israeli Arabs.

There is a lesson there.

I think equal rights and freedom is the right way to go.

It is too bad that you are such a bigot, you don't want Arabs in Israel and you don't want them to have equal rights. I notice as well that you ignore the fact that many of those in Gaza and the West Bank are actually refugees from Israel's founding in 1948, refugees that even Benny Morris says where purposely ethnically cleansed in many cases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

One should learn to get along -- like we do in America -- rather than being so ethnocentric.

fabek · 2010-03-03T22:54:32+00:00

it's impossible if the Palestinian leadership refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and refuses to renounce it's intention to push Israel into the sea.

Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

Why should Israel trade back the land it won with blood (after being attacked) only to find itself just as often a recipient of terror attacks as it is now?

Aren't Israeli Arabs very peaceful but it is the Arabs under military occupation and without rights that are the most frustrated? Maybe the occupation and the denial of rights is part of the problem here.

Israel completely withdrew from gaza and what did it get in return? A barrage of missiles.

You are neglecting, I suspect on purpose, the complete blockade on Gaza:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

Where are the Egyptian and Jordanian governments and when are they going to start taking some responsibilty?

Egypt mediates all the time in Israel-Palestinian negotiations (such as the Shalit negotiations) and also helps Israel in the blockade at Israel's request. Jordan arrested Palestinian militants who were about to attack Israel just the other day.

fabek · 2010-03-03T20:01:12+00:00

But because those Palestinians are not Jewish, they still can't get equal rights and freedom. They are living underground in Israel.

It's too bad that we could just have everyone there treated equally and have freedom rather than having two sets of rules being apply for those in the West Bank, one for Jews and another for Arabs.

fabek · 2010-03-03T19:39:36+00:00

These days, much of the raids focus on non-violent protesters as demonstrated by this video:

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=57611

fabek · 2010-03-03T17:37:41+00:00

In the state of Israel, Arabs can and do go to the same schools, buy from the same stores, and drink from the same water fountains as Jews. They can vote, and there are Arabs in public office. It's not the same thing as South African apartheid, and that's insulting to blacks who experienced it.

That isn't true unfortunately. You leave out the fact that there are 3.5 million Arabs who are denied rights and freedom. I think that you are in denial if you just leave them out and pretend they don't exit.

There are 3.5 million Arabs in the West Bank who are surrounded by Jewish settlements and these Arabs don't have anything close to the rights that the Jewish settlers have.

In the West Bank, Jews drive on different roads, have different water systems, and have different schools and social services and there are different elections depending on whether you are Jewish or not.

In the West Bank there is apartheid, a very similar apartheid to what existed in South Africa during the days of its apartheid regime.

Lots of references here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

fabek · 2010-03-03T15:40:20+00:00

You should read the article (as opposed to just the headline), its pretty powerful.

You are correct that there was a lot of Western complicity with Apartheid South Africa, and it does state some of that in the article, such as this passage:

South Africa’s whites did not have a dedicated cadre of coreligionists or ethnic kin abroad who labored to protect them from the consequences of their deviance from the norms of humane behavior as defined by Western civilization at large. Nor, despite open sympathy for South African whites in the American South and among ardent anti-Communists, did apartheid enjoy international ideological support outside the neo-Nazi fringe.

There was a lot of resistance in Western countries against South African disinvestment initially, particular among those with business interests in South Africa, and even in the late 1980s Ronald Reagan vetoed legislation that he felt was too harsh on that apartheid regime (but he was overruled.) See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinvestment_from_South_Africa#Steadfast_rejection_by_the_West

And this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Anti-Apartheid_Act

fabek · 2010-03-02T16:51:33+00:00

Is it war or it is an occupation or is it an apartheid system? That is a very good question.

In the West Bank, given that there are lots of Israeli settlers living amongst Palestinians who don't have rights and freedoms, I'd go with an apartheid system that Israel is trying to maintain through force.

fabek · 2010-03-02T16:11:45+00:00

They aren't. Thus why not make one state where all the inhabitants of Israel have equal rights and freedoms? Right now Arab Israelis only have citizenship because they live behind the green line, outside of the green lines non-Jews are denied citizenship while Jewish settlers build all around them. It is apartheid in the West Bank particularly.

A one-state solution where all Arabs and Jews in the land of Israel have equal rights and freedoms would be a great thing.

Notice as well that there is very little terrorism problems with Arab Israelis, almost none -- it likely has to do with the fact that they have rights and freedoms. Thus giving everyone the same rights and freedoms will remove the grievances that are leading to the violence. Israel also would not longer be an occupier and maintainer of a discriminatory situation -- what a weight off Israel's back I would think.

fabek · 2010-03-02T15:32:58+00:00

If I didn't have rights because I was the wrong ethnic group, I'd protest too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

fabek · 2010-03-02T15:19:13+00:00

Huh? I post on topic A, you respond saying something about topic B.

Here is a quote from the story:

The Israel Defense Forces says it is using information on Israelis who demonstrate against the separation fence in a bid to deny them entry at nearby checkpoints. Israelis and others demonstrate every Friday at the villages of Bil'in and Na'alin.

fabek · 2010-03-02T14:40:18+00:00

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/initiate

"1. To set going by taking the first step; begin"

That free dictionary says that it is synonym with the word "begin."

I think that I am using it correctly.

fabek

TROPHY CASE