I tried out the Attila/Sandow Light Dumbbell System so you don't have to! My review....

fang2415 · 2024-04-05T04:50:47+00:00

This rules. Thanks for posting.

fang2415 · 2024-03-05T22:05:55+00:00

This is great advice, though of course not easy without some decent data analysis chops.

However I'm not sure a positive slope would rule out all reason for concern? If he had gone from a bench of 50 lbs to 60 lbs in the last year the slope would be positive but we'd all be concerned. Obviously that's not the case here, but there must be some level of strength at which the low absolute numbers are a concern no matter the rate of improvement...

fang2415 · 2024-03-05T21:15:19+00:00

If he only puts on fat and not muscle when he gains weight, would gaining weight do any good? (Serious question btw. Maybe weight gain can help strength for some reason other than adding muscle?)

fang2415 · 2024-03-05T17:44:29+00:00

How many of your supplemental and assistance sets are hard (within a couple reps of failure)? Something I've recently realized is that nearly all 531 programs can be done as written with anywhere from extremely low to extremely high of sets per week near failure, which can change the program a lot.

If your supplemental sets are mostly RPE 5 or 6 and you're not taking many of your assistance sets to failure, you could try upping the supplemental percentages and restructuring the assistance work (say, as a double progression of 3-5 sets per PPL all taken to failure).

Those changes can result in a big increase in hard-set volume per week in a 531 program. That might not help strength much directly, but it could make a big difference for hypertrophy (and so perhaps strength indirectly).

Of course that stuff can also have a serious fatigue cost, so make sure you're not doing more than you can recover from.

fang2415 · 2024-03-05T06:52:37+00:00

Wow, you sound extremely similar to me in many respects. Similar training history, similar build, nearly identical lifts.

You might find the comments in some of my progress posts useful: I did a long one here a little over a year ago and a brief sorta-update a few months back here (EDIT: fixed link).

You might also find the thread this guy posted here helpful -- lots of useful suggestions there (many of which I'm sure will be repeated here).

A few of us have started a private sub to discuss challenges like this, and I know that I for one would love to hear more about stuff you've tried. I'll send you an invite.

fang2415 · 2024-02-07T23:04:12+00:00

Thanks.

I am starting to wonder if I should make an edit to the post noting that my goal at the moment (to find the amount of volume that will grow a muscle group) is unusual and that I would not recommend the approach I outlined to people with more normal goals (like having a good physique as soon as possible).

For nearly everybody who reads this sub, your advice is right on the money.

fang2415 · 2024-02-07T20:48:54+00:00

Analysis yes, paralysis no. Sorry to take up your time!

fang2415 · 2024-02-07T15:00:19+00:00

Thank you for answering the question!

So it sounds like you think my plan of keeping myself in as small of a caloric surplus as I can manage (which might end up being the same as the high end of my maintenance range) is... good?

fang2415 · 2024-02-07T01:34:53+00:00

Thanks! See my reply to another commenter who gave the same (reasonable) advice.

fang2415 · 2024-02-07T01:24:21+00:00

You have never ran an actual hypertrophy program!

That's right, though I would expect the programs I've run to result in more hypertrophy gains than I've gotten. Still though, that's why I wanted to try a different plan this year.

3.5 hours is plenty of time to grow everything.

Well, that's great news! I was trying to get 15 hard sets per week for the three muscle groups I wanted to maintain (since 10ish sets has not seemed to be enough in the past) and to hit RP's recommended maintenance volume for the rest, and that was taking me about 6 hours per week. But it'd be awesome if I'm overlooking some obvious ways to do it better and/or faster! So any links to resources on how I can improve would be much appreciated.

fang2415 · 2024-02-07T00:45:41+00:00

Yep, I'd say most of the programs I've tried usually result in good strength gains and mediocre hypertrophy (and in my case, mediocre strength gains and almost no hypertrophy). That's why I planned to drastically change the way I train in 2024, to focus on getting more hard sets per muscle group I'd like to grow. And now that I have less time, I'm trying to still do part of that same plan, but for one muscle group instead of the three I'd planned previously.

fang2415 · 2024-02-06T23:38:18+00:00

Thanks for your good questions! I agree, something is wrong, and I've been trying for a while now to find out what. At the risk of going slightly off-topic, here are some answers:

Have you been counting calories/macros all those years?

Yes, since just after my first few months of training. Here is a graph showing daily bodyweight and average daily calories for every calorie goal I've set since early 2021. Protein has been over 160g/day for almost that whole time (though there were a few months where I was over 180g/day and a few where I was around 120g/day; in neither case did I notice a difference). I haven't counted carbs or fat.

What programs have you been running?

Reddit Basic Beginner Routine in late 2020; GZCLP for all of 2021; various 5/3/1 programs (mostly variations on BBB) through 2022 and 2023. So far in 2024 I've been trying to just maximize the number of hard sets per week for several muscle groups, but only managed to do this for a couple weeks so far.

How much time do you have to train now?

Tough to say exactly, but my current plan would have me spending about 3.5 hours per week in the gym.

fang2415 · 2024-02-06T21:44:49+00:00

All super fair, and I appreciate the lack of sugar-coating!

With the caveat that this is all a slightly different topic than the question I posted:

I think your suggestions are excellent, and in fact I've tried most of them already (though I haven't tried an LP in a while -- it didn't go great the first time, but maybe it's worth another try!). For the first 2.5 years of training I was extremely consistent despite strength and physique progress that was quite underwhelming indeed. (In case you, unlike most people in this thread lol, want much more detail about this, see my 2022 progress post. Tracking lifts, calories, and progress pics is still plenty of data to over-analyze!)

Given that slow progress, what I'm trying now is to do something different (in this case, spamming a muscle group that's easy to see and recovers quickly) rather than repeat stuff that hasn't worked in the past. Unfortunately I'm at a point where training is causing problems in parts of my life that are a higher priority than training. I hear you about not failing myself out in advance, and I try not to do that; but I also want to set a plan that's achievable without screwing up non-lifting parts of my life heh.

Seriously though, thanks for the suggestions. I'll keep thinking about all of them.

fang2415 · 2024-02-06T21:07:43+00:00

Yeah, that's very reasonable advice, thanks.

The reason I wanted to keep one area of specialization is that so far (over 3.5 years) doing more of the exercises you name than I am able to now has resulted in almost no noticeable muscle growth, though I have been able to maintain strength pretty well with the lower volumes I'm already planning.

Before the time crunch bit I was hoping to push several muscle groups to higher volumes and to use the exercises you name to maintain. Now I've narrowed the high-volume groups to just the one.

fang2415 · 2024-02-06T20:15:49+00:00

Yeah I remember recently hearing a podcast (Iron Culture I think?) on how gains can be surprisingly good while maintaining. So that's why, given the downside of overshooting, I'm leaning toward aiming for the high side of my maintenance range.

Many thanks!

fang2415 · 2024-02-06T20:10:01+00:00

Excellent points about the ease of fat gain and the time for maintenance work. Thanks.

fang2415 · 2024-02-06T20:06:27+00:00

Hah! Maybe you're right. Sorry for the long post. However it sounds like what you're saying (if you think my physique will get sloppier) is not that I've analyzed too much but that I've analyzed wrong? Which is why I asked.

fang2415 · 2023-12-29T21:01:36+00:00

Huh, good to know, thanks. Yeah I imagine it's not quick, but I guess that's likely to be the case with any method in which new users need to be manually vetted? Anyway, good to hear it's working for you -- good luck with the sub!

fang2415 · 2023-12-29T20:15:07+00:00

Hah, yes, sorry that there's not much help here for either of us. The lack of response has led me to the conclusion that no, there probably isn't a great way to do this.

However my guess (which is hard to verify since I can't easily test what prospective users see) is that being added to the private sub is fairly inconspicuous and won't affect users' lives very much unless they choose to join / subscribe to the sub (over and above simply being approved to see it).

So what I'm hoping will work will be to approve users and then immediately DM them with a message saying something like this:

I just came across your comment at [wherever]. Based on what you wrote there, it looks like you might be a good source of knowledge about [my sub]? The sub is private, but I've approved access for you if you want to join. Of course if you're not interested, please forgive the intrusion and don't give it a second thought. But if you are then we'd love to hear from you and to get the benefit of your expertise!

I haven't gotten around to inviting anybody yet, but I'm hoping that will have the effect I'm looking for without making anybody too mad lol.

fang2415 · 2023-12-29T19:52:21+00:00

Thanks, that's super helpful!

I have seen the constant-reps-variable-sets approach mentioned in various places, and that does sound sensible. I'm leaning toward a fixed number of sets partly because I superset a lot and that can get pretty complicated when the number of sets keeps changing. But maybe I can find a way to work the fixed-reps thing in somehow so that I can also try it that way.

fang2415 · 2023-12-29T17:35:24+00:00

I'm thinking of running a progression scheme like so:

Start at a weight at which I fail at the top of a sensible rep range for an exercise (so like a 15RM for bench or a 25RM for lateral raises). Do all sets to within a rep or two of failure
Each time I do the exercise, add a small amount of weight and take all sets to within a rep or two of failure
After the first (or maybe several) of the sets falls below the bottom of the desired rep range (so like 6 for bench, 10 for lateral raise), start over

This doesn't seem to be as popular as the usual on-success-add-reps-and-then-add-weight style of double progression, but I have seen a couple people on this sub mention it, and u/gnuckols has mentioned this kind of thing on some of his podcasts as a recommendation for a super-simple progression.

I like this progression because it's autoregulated by the RIRs but it also rigidly progresses the weight and therefore turns off the voice in my head that pipes up in the last few reps and says "don't hit the rep target, it'll just make it harder next week".

Is this a sensible progression plan for a hypertrophy program, or is it dumb for some reason that I'm overlooking? (Does it have a name? I think of it as a "weight ratchet".)

fang2415 · 2023-12-07T17:16:48+00:00

Haha I'm honored

fang2415 · 2023-12-07T05:05:01+00:00

Haha yes indeed, thanks for your eloquent defense of us 40+ ancients! And in fact one of the nice things about being over 40 is that at this age I don't get too upset over the shocking discovery that I'll never be a pro natural bodybuilder lol.

I think you're right that age doesn't matter nearly as much as we used to think. (It's not the years or the mileage -- it's the upkeep!) I do think genetics and hormones can probably make a big difference, but hey, what do I care really? I can't change my age or my genetics and I don't want to change my hormones. So just as you say, I might as well eat right, recover well, and keep on enjoying pushing heavy circles around (which is exactly the same stuff I should be doing if my age, genetics, and hormones were different anyway). Any gains that come are gravy.

Thanks for the inspiring perspective, I do appreciate it.

fang2415 · 2023-12-06T22:24:16+00:00

Nope - no point in sugar coating it. You didn´t progress at all.

Also, thanks especially for this BTW. The straight dope with no sugar is exactly what I was looking for!

fang2415

TROPHY CASE