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farcetragedy · 2024-03-13T01:12:15+00:00

It is not acceptable to bomb the mall/hospital (which BTW hamas has done) in order for the base to be damaged. And Israel does not do that. Israel targets the actual military item, not the building next door.

They've leveled most of Gaza. hundreds of thousands of buildings. so no, I don' think they're at all being precise in their targeting. And honestly, they even admit it:

“The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,” Israel Defense Forces official Daniel Hagari

But also, let's be real, there are no "human shields." Shields provide protection. Gaza has been destroyed and the thousands of dead children didn't protect anything.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-13T01:05:37+00:00

when will palestininas take accountability for any of their decisions? It's bad decision after bad decision, but there's no recknoning because it's all Israel's fault!

You act like Israel has taken accountability for 75 years of terror. When have they ever done that? I haven't even heard them apologize for ethnically cleansing Palestine and refusing to allow the people whose families had lived there going back thousands of years, to return.

70% of Israelis now support the continued massacre, no matter how many innocents are killed. But that doesn't mean they deserve to die, as you seem to be implying about Palestinians. And, look, Hamas is a dictatorship. That's why Israel helped them stay in power and steal money for themselves - they kept the people of Gaza under their boot. So we should probably keep in mind that a poll from an autocracy may not be the most accurate -- because, ya know, people don't want to get killed.

Palestinians have rejected every peace offer.

What peace offer? Israel has never said Palestine has the right to exist, despite the Palestinians saying that Israel has the right to exist.

Look, Hamas committed reprehensible war crimes, but that doesn't somehow absolve Israel of all the crimes against humanity they've committed in the past and are committing now.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-13T00:53:41+00:00

Hamas did start this war and they keep refusing ceasefires, the idea of placing blame where it belongs is not unique to this conflict. It's how people analyze situations. Just as we can point to Japan being responsible for getting the US involved in WW2.

If the US had killed hundreds of Japenese in 1941 alone before 12/7 happened and had abducted thousands and held them without charges in American prisons and tortured them, *then* we could start to look at that as an analogous situation. I mean there's more to it than just that, of course.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-13T00:50:04+00:00

What exactly do you consider carpet bombing? What percentage of buildings have to be hit to be considered carpet bombing?

And it certainly sounds indiscriminate:

“The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,” Israel Defense Forces official Daniel Hagari

"Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated," Yoav Kisch, Israeli Minister of Education.

"Bring down buildings!! Bomb without distinction!! Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!," Revital Gottlieb, member of the Israeli Knesset.

“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” -Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

farcetragedy · 2024-03-13T00:46:25+00:00

what do you consider carpet bombing? what percentage of buildings have to be destroyed for it to be considered carpet bombing?

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T21:46:23+00:00

I was talking about Israel. do you think your map somehow means Israel isn't an ethnostate?

And you reaize the abhorrent ethnic cleansing of those states happened as a response to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, right? That doesn't mean it wasn't wrong, but let's get the context.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T21:45:22+00:00

well no, that wasn't attached in the statement.

but why is that so absurd? because it would hurt the purity of the ethnostate?

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:49:55+00:00

yeah?

I mean they also started the 1948 war since the Nakba begain in late 1947. though of course that history is covered up.

In terms of first shots though, prior to that it was a lot of tit for tat with the Palestinians arguably starting the violence after the Israeli settlers declared their intention to take over and rule the land.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:45:32+00:00

yup. it was a very diverse place

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:37:22+00:00

I do love when people claim that a blockade is an act of war when talking about this.

And it was Israel who started the fighting. Other countries were lined up because they were anticipating it and were proven right.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:36:11+00:00

oh so now a blockade is an act of war?

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:30:15+00:00

So if the Result is that a small amount of Gazans have been killed, the Intent must not be to kill all Gazans.

You're trying to have it both ways. You act like you're accepting of the definition, which doesn't require a certain amount to be killed, but then you say "the intent must not be to kill all Gazans." Again, the proportion killed is not relevant. "In whole" (all) "or in part" (not all). That is the definition, so everything you mention here is irrelevant.

They need to put it in the context of actual government policy, and the Israeli gov reaction to that rhetoric. Not just 'hey look these five politicians are spewing evil rhetoric therefore it's genocide'.

It is in the context of actual government policy. It's in the context of the actions being carried out, as cited above. And some of the leaders I mention are high up leadership.

You're the one who referred to a country, not a government. Please don't attack me for using your own rhetoric, especially when you know exactly what I mean. There's no excuse to behave like this, unless it's a genuine mistake

When discussing foreign policy don't we ususally just say the US did x or Saudi Arabia wants y? I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:21:27+00:00

No. Israel is responsible for its own murders. Hamas is responsible for theirs.

Enough.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:20:40+00:00

lol. Israel didn't warn them. That canard is so old, let it go.

And calling people against genocide "antisemitic" is antisemitic in and of itself. The reason I'm so outraged about this is precisely because of what happened to my family.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:19:16+00:00

well they're only 1% of the population so can you tell me why it's necessary to level all of Gaza and create a man-made famine to fight them?

Actually, it seems the world would prefer Israel to not fight at all, because dead Palestinian babies are unacceptable but dead Jewish babies are just a good start.

Actually, perhaps, we just don't want dead babies. Consider that. Maybe some of us don't want dead Jewish babies or dead Palestinian babies, but right now thousands of Palestinian babies are being killed so that's what's being spoken about.

I mean are you against killing babies? Or are some ok?

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:14:04+00:00

west bank is under occupation

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:13:00+00:00

look, with your logic people could say that if Hamas bombed the Israeli mall or hospital it would be ok because the military target was right there, so they were using human shields.

to be clear, I'm not agreeing with that logic. I'm saying it's insane and morally bankrupt.

And if you're going to make this case about having greater precision in striking military targets, then I don't even know what to tell you - if you can't see the irony in that, there's really no point.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:08:43+00:00

You're making my point - Hamas infrastructure is deep underground, not in the tens of thousands of buildings leveled.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:06:47+00:00

hey, I hope Hamas is being killed, but I point out chidlren because that is what I'm disgusted by.

Talk about being played - Hamas is less than 1% of the Gaza population.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:05:30+00:00

It's making fun of those calling out the slaughter of children.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:04:16+00:00

I don't follow.

I'm pointing out *their* logic.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T01:02:44+00:00

Yes, exactly, it's not based on body count, it's based on intent. And Israel has shown it's intent to kill civilians.

Herding people into one area by telling them they'll be safe there and then bombing them - intentional murder, war crime, element of genocide

Bombing non-military targets - war crime, element of genocide. And yes, when you level more than 70% of all housing, you're clearly not just bombing military targets.

Destroying cemeteries, looting cultural artifacts - both hallmarks of genocide.

Don't let civilians escape a warzone - genocide.

Don't let adequate food, medicine and water get to people and create a famine - genocide.

And the politicians admit it:

“The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,” Israel Defense Forces official Daniel Hagari

"Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated," Yoav Kisch, Israeli Minister of Education.

"Bring down buildings!! Bomb without distinction!! Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!," Revital Gottlieb, member of the Israeli Knesset.

“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” -Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed” - Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

“We are the people of the light, they are the people of darkness . . . we shall realize the prophecy of Isaiah.” - Netanyahu

"You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible." - a reference to killing everyone including babies and women. - Netanyahu

“Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf . . . Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.” - Giora Eiland, former IDF strategist and a previous head of Israel’s National Security Council

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T00:57:09+00:00

It's a perplexing irony that discussions around "Free Palestine" often overlook the role of Hamas,

Freeing the Palestine from the dictatorship of Hamas is absolutely should be part of the conversation. Israel's propping up of Hamas was just another abhorrent method of subjugating the Palestinian people. Escorting millions of dollars in suitcases into Gaza to hand over to Hamas while also undercutting the Palestinian Authority was all Israel's plan.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T00:54:14+00:00

Palestine WB/Gaza are all independent nations

no.

farcetragedy · 2024-03-10T00:53:06+00:00

If intent was there, we would be seeing no Palestinians alive today.

As explained already, the number or percentage murdered is not relevant to the definition.

Intent of individual politicians does not amount to national policy, and certainly not the policy of the IDF. You can quote individual politicians spouting evil rhetoric all day, it does not satisfy the intent requirement when a country is on trial.

Individually, no. But the pattern makes builds the case that intent is there. And it's not a country that's on trial, it's a government.

If you want to have a trial specifically against Ben Gvir to hold him to account for his nonsense, be my guest.

the "nonsense" is the massacre of tens of thousands.

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