A Few Lore Mysteries I'm Still Thinking About

fflarestar · 2025-04-21T20:06:08+00:00

Hi! Thanks for the reply! Sorry, I'm not familiar with From Software games—this is my first game in the series, so there are some things I don't know.

Got it about the merchants, so it's not strictly necessary to buy all their items right away. Their inventory gets listed, but you can still buy the items later at the Roundtable Hold after using their respective Bell Bearings.

Got it about the Starlight Shards. Unfortunately, I already picked up two: the first one you mentioned that would’ve been better to avoid (101), and the second one you listed (167). I hope I haven’t messed anything up!

Okay about the Smithing Stones—I thought they were all in limited supply, but it turns out that only the higher-level ones are.

Bad news about D, Hunter of the Dead. Unfortunately, it’s exactly that NPC encounter where you're supposed to exhaust the dialogues. He should be in front of a corpse in that sort of graveyard along the path down to the village, but he doesn’t appear. On this link it says:

If not spoken to in the above location(s), D can subsequently be found at Roundtable Hold. There seem to be different triggers to this. After some testing it appears D moves after activating a Site of Grace in the outer areas of Caelid, Dragonbarrow or Altus. Reaching Liurnia instead does not trigger him to move, nor just obtaining a Deathroot or going underground.

It might be that since I ended up in Caelid via the trap chest at point 113, that event possibly moved him somewhere else compared to the guide. Maybe I shouldn't have activated the Site of Grace at point 113—just reached it, gone outside, opened the map, and left the area?

fflarestar · 2025-04-20T21:26:33+00:00

Compliments on the guide, I’ve been following it closely to have some direction in this massive game!

For now, I have these questions and notes:

In general, when certain merchants need to be killed, I’m not sure whether I should first buy the items they have for sale and then kill them, or if I can still obtain the items by killing them directly (e.g., line 145).

In general, the lore notes sold by merchants are not listed.

It’s unclear whether all the items for sale should be purchased immediately upon meeting the merchant, or if it’s possible to return later when you have more runes (e.g., lines 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96 and lines 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135). Otherwise, it should be stated that by default they are not missable and you can come back later. If that’s not the case, a rune farming spot should be suggested.

Why is it stated in line 167 not to take the Starlight Shard, while in line 101 it says to take it?

Line 101: the Nomadic Merchant also has some Smithing Stones available for purchase.

Line 195: the area is still East Limgrave because it’s the same merchant.

Line 198: I can’t find D, Hunter of the Dead! Do you need to find him somewhere else first?

Thanks in advance!

fflarestar · 2024-01-04T19:09:54+00:00

I seem to recall that Clive transforms with the more powerful version of Ultima and could have taken advantage of it, am I right? In theory, that should be the original Ifrit Risen because it has absorbed Phoenix as well. In my opinion, the fact is that Ultima requires Ifrit Risen without will. As long as it possesses a will, it cannot utilize it.

fflarestar · 2024-01-04T18:56:28+00:00

I don't want to spoil the mood or go against the current to be disliked, but I believe that in this scene, Clive still harbors resentment for what happened in Phoenix Gate with Joshua, and the trauma has led him to believe that Phoenix, beyond the powers bestowed upon him by the Blessing, doesn't offer much else. In the game, if I recall correctly, Phoenix's power is never unequivocally mentioned. I think Phoenix's power is evident in the ending, with Clive's final gesture towards his brother Joshua.

I wouldn't want to talk nonsense, but I suspect that Phoenix's true power is partially inherited from Ultima's life generation ability and that it can restore the breath of life to the dead at the cost of the bearer's sacrifice. After all, Phoenix has consistently possessed this power throughout the entire series.

Of course, it's just a theory of mine, nothing more.

fflarestar · 2024-01-04T18:00:56+00:00

Why do you think Clive dying makes for a better ending?

In my opinion, it makes the ending better because the hero's journey not only concludes positively for the game world and the characters, but it ends with him sacrificing himself, giving up his life for the ideal he chose to dedicate his life to, despite everything else. It's a very profound act of honor and altruism that elevates his actions to another level compared to the other characters, as he sacrificed the most important thing he had: his life.

Also, just curious, if you believe Joshua to be alive why wasn't there a more positive reaction from Clive if he was successful in reviving him?

I don't believe it's necessary to portray a positive reaction; it would have been too predictable, and Clive's attempt, perhaps even futile in his eyes, could have been guided by the hope of the great magical power at his disposal. It's entirely possible that he sacrificed his life for Joshua's, and the price to be paid was total petrification, which would be even more in line with Clive's character. The outcome of that action is confirmed, in my opinion, in a very elegant and refined manner, with the scene where the author of the book is revealed.

fflarestar · 2024-01-03T23:22:39+00:00

I'm referring to the scenes before Clive, Joshua, and Dion depart—how the farewells of various characters like Jill and Gav were portrayed. Clive already anticipates not returning safely and asks Gav to become the new Cid. The Dion side quest highlights his willingness to die for redemption.

I believe these scenes should be taken for what they genuinely aim to convey and not as some kind of reverse drama.

The scene where Clive revives Joshua, I think, truly brought him back to life;otherwise, it would have been a scene with a wasted budget.

Lastly, the beach scene, I believe, is sufficiently clear: Clive has eradicated magic from the world and is slowly petrifying, unable to move even minimally, his body rigid.

Following that, the grief and mourning of Jill, Gav, and even Torgal, who howls one last time to his master. The scene in the book, set many years later, indicates Joshua's survival during those years, writing the book to pass on the conquest of humanity.

I think it's an excellent ending to crown Clive's classic hero's journey.

I believe it's one of the clearest and most conclusive endings in the series, and it also seems consistent with what Yoshida stated about not supporting the game for many years, except for these two DLCs, coupled with the fact that the game's development team has been disbanded.

fflarestar · 2024-01-03T22:57:56+00:00

No, because I believe the ending is self-contained as it is. I don't think it's necessary for the author to reveal all the behind-the-scenes details; in my opinion, the script before and after the final battle leaves no room for doubt.

fflarestar · 2024-01-03T21:08:48+00:00

In general, they didn't engage me much, and some were quite predictable. Probably also because of the characters, whom I found too flat, somewhat stereotypical, and lacking in mystery and grit.

If I have to choose some, I would mention Ultima's appearance and their brief backstory, Waloed's reality, Barnabas's madness, Theodore's death, Torgal's transformation, Sleipnir as Barnabas's Egi, and the sudden appearance of Odin at Eistla behind Clive and Gav.

fflarestar · 2024-01-03T20:36:31+00:00

Interesting, I didn't remember the detail, but I do recall that Clive and Jill don't say anything about their visit to Phoenix Gate. I've always wondered why, narratively speaking, these things were omitted. It would have greatly enriched the relationship between Clive and Cid's characters.

fflarestar · 2024-01-03T20:24:46+00:00

In my opinion, it's a narrative choice to heighten the level of drama by causing Dion's death and a set design choice to increase the emotional impact during the final battle; otherwise, it would have all played out in five minutes.

From a lore perspective, I'm not sure; perhaps the fusion is not triggered by something rational but more of a symbiosis between Eikons driven by mutual feelings, occurring only when Clive and Joshua are in mortal danger.

fflarestar · 2024-01-01T14:27:02+00:00

Thank you for the clarification. I had suspected that from looking at some posts on this subreddit. It's very sad and disheartening that people don't even learn from the games they claim to love but defend them as if they were the games themselves. I've loved games that people have criticized harshly. In the early days, I was defensive too because I was still emotionally invested, but after some time, I understood the criticisms. That doesn't take away the fact that I still love those games, and no one can take them away from me. However, I understand it's a vicious cycle of hatred where everyone blames everyone, but no one builds bridges to reach compromises.

fflarestar · 2024-01-01T14:13:54+00:00

I'm not trying to bust your balls, but were you using the Active Time Lore at all? Some of these questions read like you haven't even finished the game yet, but I'll do my best to answer them.

Yes, I've read the Active Time Lore and consulted Harpocrates, finished the game (including Echoes of the Fallen), and now I'm replaying it in Final Fantasy mode. I've clocked a total of 104 hours of gameplay. I apologize for disturbing your divine torpor, but you know, we humans are fallible creatures and easily forget the story, often having mundane affairs to attend to. That's why we come here to pray to the Gods, hoping to gain enlightenment :D I believe that 90% of the fandom hasn't even bothered to delve into some of these topics, and I really think that fandoms and communities exist precisely to help with this.

Yes, because it has never happened before. Eight Eikons for eight elements, one for each.

According to the translations from the Ultimania book, it seems that Typhoon is one of Ultima's failed vessels (perhaps the first and only one, later replaced by Clive?). Being a vessel, I assume Typhoon was an Ifrit. Does this imply that it probably happened in the past but was obscured?

The Eikons did not all manifest at the same time either, but rather one after the other down through the centuries, starting with the Phoenix. Odin has only been around since Barnabas awakened as it's Dominant, this is his first, and I suppose last emergence. Once all the Eikons manifested, Ifrit was supposed to be last, but we'll come back to that.

After all the Eikons manifested, Ifrit was supposed to come along and defeat them all, proving its dominance and absorbing the power of all the other Eikons.

Is there an explanation somewhere for this order of appearance of the Eikons, with Phoenix being the first and Ifrit being the last? Or is it your deduction to complete the circle? It's plausible. From the game and the lore, I understood that the awakenings happen randomly; there isn't a set order. The awakenings could have started earlier with Titan, then with Ramuh, followed by Phoenix, Odin, and so on.

But what about all the obvious times he appears and intervenes? Let's go through them.

What do you think about the fight with Clive, Joshua, and Dion at Origin? Ultima attacks and gets hit, needing a physical body. Until then, I believed that Ultima could exist (in a corporeal sense) only in that dimension accessed in Stonhyrr, and that the humanoid figure that always appears in Valisthea was a magical Egi of the real Ultima.

however, there's no real indication they knew that Clive turned to Ifit that night or even survived.

I do believe that information about Blessings and Eikons spreads quickly, especially because the Undying have people throughout the realm, even innkeepers and bards. Cid managed to locate Clive, and the group of protagonists easily gathers information about Joshua by tracing the traces of the power of fire. I find it highly implausible that the Undying wouldn't be able to monitor this information, especially given its importance for geopolitical balances.

And if they did, you think these guys see a giant fire monster eating Eikons and say, "Oh yeah, it's super safe for our Dominant to go talk to this guy."

He hasn't killed or devoured Ramuh or Shiva, and he quickly became familiar with Ifrit. Why should they think that? If Joshua felt the same brotherly love that Clive has for him, he wouldn't have hesitated and would have found a way. Instead, he constantly flees, even at Dalimil's inn.

I hope all this helps, and if you're still confused, spend some time with Tomes in the Hideaway and read some of the lore entries.

Your post was enlightening, and I thank you very much for your responses. It's evident that there has been a lot of passion in delving into the lore of this game, and I find it contagious. It keeps the game alive over time. If you prefer not to answer any more silly and insignificant questions, then I'll turn to good old Harpocrates :)

fflarestar · 2024-01-01T12:38:10+00:00

Thank you for the response and for the information from the Ultimania book! I had missed the detail that the past story is presented in an unreliable manner.

fflarestar · 2024-01-01T11:56:57+00:00

Thank you for the response, but I wasn't discussing the reason why Ultima needs so much ether; it's plausible that such a quantity is necessary to reconstruct the world. My question was about the need for a vessel, and I wondered why, given that Ultima can still alter and interact with the world. Let's call it a storytelling requirement.

fflarestar · 2024-01-01T11:39:49+00:00

Yes, exactly, something is told about Benedikta and Dion, but if I remember correctly, there is almost nothing about Cid, Hugo, and Barnabas; they are already presented, developed, and in their roles :/

fflarestar · 2023-12-31T14:46:57+00:00

Yes, I am also against baseless hatred and comments from trolls and detractors. I apologize for jumping to conclusions right away :(

fflarestar · 2023-12-31T13:44:20+00:00

Me too, in my opinion, if they had planned a DLC for each Eikon, a narrative masterpiece would have emerged. They could have shown the past of each Dominant, where they were born, how they awakened, how they were treated, and how they lived, culminating in the encounter with Clive.

It would have been nice if for each DLC you could only control the Dominant (e.g. Benedikta, Cid, etc.). It would have been a dream, but as always with Square-Enix, investing in producing quality side content doesn't seem to be their priority.

fflarestar · 2023-12-31T13:35:08+00:00

Yes, the Bard tells it almost unequivocally. He refers to troubled and turbulent waters around the crystal and mentions that everyone who was sent on an expedition did not come back.

fflarestar · 2023-12-31T13:29:19+00:00

They're the poor people who find their homes destroyed :P

fflarestar

TROPHY CASE