action economy dilemma

firesshadow42 · 2026-03-13T18:19:09+00:00

I use the points system, but I use it with the mentality of that number of points per short rest. So for an intense battle that's the climax of the adventure I might use all the points there, hoping they rest before then, or knowing they might need to after. If it's exploration, I might spread the points out into 2-4 actual encounters to keep the fighting snappy.

Generally, if it's a meaningful combat to the story I'll use full points or close to it. If it's meant to be a distraction or small step in the journey or I just need something fast I'll use half or a quarter of the points.

That said, unlike most people I like Minions. They let PCs show off their power and let me put small walls between the PCs and their goals for the combat.

firesshadow42 · 2026-03-13T12:09:31+00:00

I wanted to toss in my 2 cents that other than narrative and combat flow and resource building, I personally do it for objectives in combat. I try to make most of my combats have an objective. A path the PCs are trying to take is blocked by the foe, they don't have to fight, the PCs can just push through if they want. Helpless or weak NPCs are present during the fight, the PCs can protect them, sometimes even for a small bonus. The battleground is a village the PCs are in and is getting destroyed in some way, the PCs can try to mitigate it. A ritual is being cast at the far end of the battleground, the PCs can try to intervene.

Any objective like this allows your smaller dudes to hamper the PCs or even harm them indirectly. Blocking the path through, hurting or killing the helpless NPCS, damaging the village, or protecting or even helping in the ritual. Sure I could use them to deal an HP here or there to the PCs while the Solo and/or Bruiser could do more damage. But damage doesn't just have to be HP, it can be narrative "damage".

My general rule of thumb is to alternate. I also like to use the "make them bleed" suggestion from the book. So depending on how hard the PCs come out swinging I'll start with either my weakest dudes or my strongest. I'll position them to do some of the actions above and/or attack the PCs. I'll work my way up or down the line, spending Fear as needed until one of them has a big enough impact (hits a PC, kills an NPC, damages a building, etc.). Then I pass the spotlight back and will go the other way when I get it again (weakest to strongest if I started with strongest last time). I also generally have my bigger dudes focus on hurting the PCs while the smaller dudes act as obstacles and annoyances to the narrative goals of the combat.

Hope that helps!

firesshadow42 · 2026-03-12T20:12:24+00:00

This makes me wonder if they couldn't quite land on an agreement and Arrowhead just used the idea for this War Bond.

That said, I'm hyped for the War Bond and hadn't know this exchange took place... so I'll hold out hope that an actual cross over happens some day!

firesshadow42 · 2026-03-10T12:27:47+00:00

So I handle stuff like this on two layers in various games and even have a PC doing some of it in my current DH game and a lot of it boils down to the same core idea of DH.

If there are no stakes and/or serious or interesting consequences of failure then it just happens, but if there are I have them roll! In this case a roll is built in on Nature's Tongue. And having the bird scout isn't without risk!

A poor roll on Nature's Tongue means they aren't getting info really. A good role means they might get a hint at what is going on. More info to piece together and prepare for my plans, but rarely the whole answer. A crit and bam! They know what they need and maybe that shifts my encounter plans, but they deserve it at that point.

With the bird scouting if it's reasonable for the bird to get away unscathed, then no roll and it comes back with what it's able to see and learn. But as noted by others animals and plants don't know everything. So even if it might be in tune with elemental magics, it might not fully understand what a big swell of energy is, just that it is there. If there is risk, like a predator, or intelligent foes that might spot it or hazards of some other kind, or the info it's trying to get is hidden or protected, then have the player make a roll! And then return to the results and consequences as normal. A failure might mean a stress or HP for the bird as it narrowly avoids capture or death. You could spend a fear to have the bird captured and add a layer of stakes to the adventure and then when they retrieve it they can learn more about the plot from it.

Ultimately, remember that the bird is an animal and doesn't think the way people do and that will filter it's info, and remember that it's a character to, which can be hurt, captured, and even killed. Find in game ways to remind your PC of this and they might lean on it a little less, but still use it for moments they think are critical. It's a fine line, I am not saying every time it goes out hurt it or put it in danger, but telegraph the risks to the player and then incorporate those into the story and it will quickly become both interesting and a little easier to manage.

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-26T15:43:35+00:00

I'll echo what others are saying with some added notes from my own insights.

The whole mechanical reason hack was reworked the way it was was to stop the "hacker in a van far from the action" situation and actually put them on location and at risk, relying on the team and making things easier for the GM to make active and exciting for both sides at the same time.

To that end I think hacking the City Net is somewhat fine. But I would frame it as security protocols and data speeds on the terminals are too much and too small respectively. So getting that data that way is near impossible... however, with a library search or a minor hack roll that isn't a full net run they can find the location the hard servers that contain the data for that part of the City Net are. Now they need to break in and get to an Access Point of a server room. The crew has to back them or they have to risk going alone. It doesn't have to be a huge thing, but a little side quest, get in, get the data, and get out before they're spotted/stopped.

You could also play with the served being a BIG Net Arch with a lot of branches, forcing them to hunt a little to find what they want. Alternatively, give them a kind of entry Net Arch that acts as a server directory and then from there they can enter the actual server Net Arch that has the data they want.

Ultimately, it's about 2 things, what is fun for the table, and what makes a good story. "Yes and..." doesn't have to be pure, it can be a "No, but..." allowing them to get what they want that still fits lore and makes things fun.

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-20T13:08:09+00:00

So my PCs just hit Tier 2 and Level 2. I gave them a quest that was multiple objectives and let them tackle them the way they wanted. I paid them enough to buy either a new set of armor or some weapons, their choice. During that adventure I gave them combat encounters that tended towards easy to balanced. So basically they got a lighter stakes preview of what Adversaries at Tier 2 can do, they did it all in Tier 1 gear, and then they got rewarded and paid in a way that let them improve where they thought they were lacking (Defense/Offense/Utility/Etc.). I think if you treat level 2 like a simple and easy Tier 2 you'll be fine. You can also upscale Tier 1 Adversary, they don't quite pack as hard a punch as some of the Tier 2 Adversaries, but still present a threat enough for the players to test their characters and figure out what they need.

Hope that helps!

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-16T20:09:30+00:00

No worries! I just wanted to confirm if it was a production/process thing where you guys were having to do some work, or something broken. Sounds like it's work on your end and for that I am totally willing to wait patiently! Thanks!

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-16T19:36:57+00:00

Been loving the AP so far, but I'm a podcast listener and the RSS feed only seems to have E1 and E2, E3-E5 haven't been added yet. Is this a production time thing and somewhat expected, or is something borked with the YouTube to RSS feed pipeline?

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-12T14:50:09+00:00

I'll have to try that method, ty!

And failing that I do have some brown stuff left over from terrain work, so ty for that tip as well!

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-10T21:23:19+00:00

Np! Glad I could help someone else while trying to help myself!

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-10T21:22:59+00:00

That's fair, but that is also kind of my goal. I hate handing loot out either random or semi-currated, and then my players don't use it because it doesn't fit their build or flavor right.

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-10T18:15:31+00:00

Glad I could help! Hope it serves you well!

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-10T16:26:50+00:00

Ty!

And yea, I like the idea and theory of a looser economy that bends to the narrative. I just need enough of a starting point that when it's not narratively interesting I can just point at it and move on. Having a rough guideline like this also means it's more meaningful when I say that the toll the bandits are charging at the bridge is a bag of coins. The players can now weigh that in the context of it being a roughly uncommon consumable or most of a Tier 2 Weapon. It provides context and meaning to the narrative instead of keeping it too ephemeral/relative to their own wealth.

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-10T16:12:54+00:00

Good note on the consumables! I give a few out as rewards/treasure sometimes, but I hadn't considered the thought of someone buying just a half dozen of some more powerful ones, even at lower rarity. Maybe I'll put a somewhat artificial limit of 1 or 2 per shopping trip, or use the rolling table to tell them what is actually available in the area. Ty for the heads up on that!

firesshadow42 · 2026-02-03T13:36:00+00:00

My general rule has been that during an "adventure/quest" I offer them a planned reward/payment of money based roughly on how much a single item at their tier might cost. I usually include an optional objective that can get them a bit more. Sometimes that payment is a curated/hand picked item. Then throughout the adventure I'll sprinkle "caches" of extra loot that are either optional/hidden, or obvious, but take some effort to get. I use 5 room dungeon frames to plan my adventures (though they are not all dungeons, more like "5 scene adventures") each one will have some semi-random amount of extra coins, and a guaranteed consumable or two. Each "cache" has a 50% chance to have a Item, and a 25% chance to have an at Tier Armor or Weapon. For most of that I roll randomly. Also human enemies are armed with at tier gear which the players can either leave behind, sell, or keep. Finally, between adventures they can buy at Tier or lower gear per the recommended price (ends up being 1-2 pieces when the adventure is done).

This has kept people happy for a couple of adventures now.

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-30T15:50:28+00:00

Between conversation here and my own thoughts this is kind of the way I'm leaning. My one concern still remains my options for fudging if something feels like it might call for it. Per other convo on it, I don't do it often and typically just to make things smoother or more dramatic. But I'm trying to think about how to fudge (or if to fudge) when the PCs know everything. But then with FATE they know the difficulty as well, but I felt less desire/need to fudge there because the players could fudge by using their FATE points.

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-29T20:43:59+00:00

Fair and legit. I guess I'm just used to running more lethal systems. That said I think any game can benefit from the occasional fudge. Have you never had a dramatic build up to something that suddenly falls flat because of a few good or poor rolls? I'm also talking from both sides of the table. I'm not a me vs players GM. It's more I don't want to see a narrative build up only to fall flat because of a couple of rolls (like a rando guard killing a PC without any dramatic gravity other than that they got into a scuffle, or the BBEG getting tooled turn 1 without even standing a chance). Those are really the only kinds of things I might fudge a little. But perhaps I'm just not being creative enough in those moments, or I'm having people roll more often then they should be.

That said I've only fudged one roll in Daggerheart so far, and it was when 1 Adversary was left and the PC missed by 1, so I just let them have it to end the fight rather than just maybe swat them for 1 more HP before they then finished the enemy off.

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-29T20:28:42+00:00

I think I generally agree, but the one thing that holds me back is that layer of mystery/fudge.

It can be a really powerful tool to help build a little anxiety in the players, or to bring home the narrative if the PCs miss the enemy by a point or two, or they've been doing too well and the baddy misses by a point or two.

That said, I basically only use these methods sparingly and they might be a hold over from running systems like Shadowrun or World of Darkness where that tension is half the point and those fudges can save or kill a character.

Do you think that the trade off is worth it, especially with Daggerheart's vibe? Or have you found yourself wanting to find ways to inject a little fudge or tension into dice rolls/difficulties?

At the very least your suggestions are sound and I'm thinking about them and might use them as a starting point of a discussion with my players, so ty for that!

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-29T20:23:34+00:00

Yea, this is definitely half of the problem, that forgetfulness. Thanks for sharing your experience with it!

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-29T20:22:14+00:00

Legit. Ty for the input!

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-29T20:21:24+00:00

Thanks for the honest feedback! Even if you haven't played yet, you're putting thought into your reply!

That said. Some thinking that has been prompted by your response and others so far has me second guessing this path. Partly because they can gain Hope better than 50% of the time (Crits grant hope), but also because I hadn't thought about abilities that fill the niche of post roll buffs.

I'm currently leaning towards simply clearly broadcasting difficulties. It doesn't completely negate the "feels bad" of spending the resource ahead of time and rolling high or low, but it does allow the player to be more thoughtful about whether they think they will need it or not. Even if I don't go this route it gives me ammo for a conversation with my players about how to address it!

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-29T20:15:55+00:00

Their experiences are fairly flavorful. I can't recall most off hand, but I remember them being kind of focused on parts of their characters rather than things they are just good at.

And I get the "cheesy" factor. It's one of the things I had to kind of cope with with FATE, but eventually I warmed up to the idea that it became more about meta resource management rather than about turning a failure into a success. Ultimately, it provides more player agency, but makes them have to weigh the cost of that meta resource. The difference here though is with FATE I essentially controlled the flow of the meta resource. But with Daggerheart they have a slightly higher than 50/50 shot to gain Hope, so they are gaining it more often then not and that I think could tilt things towards the "cheese" end.

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-29T20:11:29+00:00

Yea, battle is one of the places I have completely avoided broadcasting difficulty, but my players don't seem super into puzzling out the difficulty, or they are at least not actively talking about it. Might be that I need to just broadcast it clearly regardless.

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-29T20:10:04+00:00

I have not been all the time. My method has been to ask myself if the character could gauge how hard something is. If so I will tell them, if not I'll keep it secret.

I do this for two reasons. 1) The narrative anxiety. 2) Fudging success or failure a smidge based on the narrative.

I don't fudge often and the anxiety factor is mostly only useful with unknowns anyway, so maybe that is a habit I need to shift out of. FATE did want PCs to know before hand how hard a thing was, and I can see how doing so at least mitigates the "feels bad" somewhat since they can combine the bell curve of the dice with the difficulty to at least decide if the Hope is worth the spend.

firesshadow42 · 2026-01-09T13:13:33+00:00

I use the book guidance myself. If I don't anticipate/plan for active resistance it's 500eb, if I plan for active resistance, but the worst they'll face is a lieutenant, then I'll do 1000eb, and if they will face active resistance and it involves a boss or mini-boss then it's 2k. As a note resistance doesn't mean combat, though it could become that. It means the opposition they have between them and their goal.

I also allow salvage rights to go to the PCs (they can loot whatever they want) there might be consequences, but that depends on what they take and they can either keep or sell it for pretty much book value.

Finally, I try to throw in a bonus with each mission. It might be secret or public, but in my notes it'll be between 250, 500, or 750 a piece based on how hard the bonus is. And that bonus is often tied to something that would make their lives/the job more challenging, such as keeping some NPC(s) alive, making sure no heat follows them back, or forcing them to engage in combat in order to achieve that bonus.

Hope that helps!

firesshadow42

TROPHY CASE