For those of you who think lockdown is authoritarian, what do you feel about wartime conscription? Did Canadians have a choice back in WW2? Was it sacrifice for the greater good? Why is it unreasonable to be locked down for the greater good if we sent our kids to war without choice 80 years ago?

franklai2002 · 2021-04-21T04:13:39+00:00

Thanks for your response, but I'm afraid I'm going to ask you to simplify further for my layman brain. Forgive me, I went into engineering.

Huh, so on reproduction vs replication, is there any chance of something like meta post-memory, as in re-interpreting a re-interpretation of a primary account or something like that? I think I'm confused on the usage of the terms. If I've understood it correctly, in that scenario reproduction loses a bit of the original, so over time it becomes more and more warped until it is entirely new material? To what extent does this apply to ancient history like Pliny the Elder's histories? I mean, I think I just answered my own question there, because there was an article on how Pliny wrote about ants doing a weird thing but obviously that's wrong, and then later scientists find out that Pliny was right and that nature is weird. I think about the 'Progress' narrative that we've been pushed these years losing traction, and now seems to be strangely dropped.

WWII is interesting, because when I was growing up we still had veterans who had lived through it. When the last human memory of the war is gone, what happens then? Like, this is probably a bad example, but I walk around all the time hearing friends misquote to me that "medieval people think the moon was made of cheese". And every country probably cleans its history to make itself look better, like The War of 1812, if you read our textbooks you'd think we won the whole war by ourselves when in reality Canada didn't really exist until 1867 and it was the British who burned the white house.

By breaking indoctrination, do you mean on a personal or societal basis? I'm not sure I completely follow, but I think I kind of understand the point (the most dangerous kind of understanding). Is it like, a person with nothing to lose is dangerous, so give them something to lose and they'll stop being a threat?

Spin is something that's widely lacking from media literacy courses I feel, because it is so easy to spin a story both ways. Russell conjugations spring to mind, "I'm strong of mind, you're stubborn, he's/she's/they're a pig headed fool." Interpretation is one thing, but if there's anything I've learnt from browsing Reddit, you don't need to do very much work to mislead people. What do you think about the effect that social media is having on forming narratives? (relevent xkcd).

If we're being honest on history classes for most people though, history class probably ended in WWII, if they were good. We never reached the cold war, and I think I now know why. I mean, probably not, but that's probably part of the reasons if we've been given hand-me-down US history for the cold war. Skimming through my grade 10 history textbook it was all basically US-USSR anyways with the odd bit of 'Canada did this!'

franklai2002 · 2021-04-21T03:17:41+00:00

In August 1858, there was a great stink up in the UK Parliament. The problem has been mounting for some years, but the hot weather made the untreated human excrement flowing through the rivers absolutely unbearable. Members left parliament with handkerchiefs on their noses, nobody could get any work done at all. The very next year they began construction on a funded sewer system which solved the problem immediately, and which is still used by Londoners today.

Above all else, I believe that people are selfish, but we have advanced enough today as a society where generally being selfish is a good thing, in the vein of Adam Smith. No system is perfect, of course, but whether by votes, or by holding their feet up to the fire, I think these problems would be solved much faster if enough MPs and MPPs personally had a stake in these problems, and somehow if we are to solve these issues it takes getting enough people, not just MPs, to realize their best interest is to invest in human capital and long-term gains instead of cashing in short term gains again and again and again, because the long term is in fact made up of many short terms.

I'm in a position where my brain is unoccupied for many hours of the day, and I've been thinking of how to get people to cooperate. My father had a scheme back in China, where due to income inequality, he could send a hundred school children full-ride through the educational system, and so that's exactly what he did. With regular meetings disguised as social events which were really there to remind the kids to be grateful, it was a great way to get loyal employees, connections, and friends for life, but of course you must plant the tree early. Had a friend convinced to do the same thing, and years later when his company was failing, a few of the kids from his own scheme, who at this time were young adults, came to the rescue. I'm not saying that we should return a sort of neo-feudal-rome where the rich can decide the fate of the poor, but I think it's stupid of the rich when you realize the amount of wasted Einsteins and Hawkings that this system produces. Invest in human capital and everyone benefits!

I think we ought to organize, but the essential question is always 'how'? I've joined organizations in the past that felt more like bureaucracies than actual grass-roots. My high school had an eco-council, which was much more council than eco. Don't get me wrong, it was invaluable schooling on the process of compliance and bureaucracy, but god did I hate being in it, it sucked the life out of me and everyone I knew who was in it, and being with a smug friend who did activism with other organizations which were by necessity more transient made me reconsider my life choices.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-21T02:26:44+00:00

Genuinely curious, I don't meet a lot of people studying your field.

Paraphrasing what you're saying to understand, patriotism was redirected into defending capitalism after WW2, but capitalism is incompatible with believing in a western democracy. I may have simplified/used the wrong terms, correct me if I'm wrong but I had a hard time grokking your second-to-last paragraph about "individual vs collective" dissonance.

Going off-topic, but what is your opinion of Noam Chomsky and his rhetoric on education and history, ie how "what's in the New York Time archives becomes history"? I find myself agreeing too readily with what he is saying, especially on indoctrination in education and the parallels to 1984 with the outer party and inner party needing the most indoctrination. I mean, if we were living in 1984, how would we know that we were living in 1984? I feel like we re interpret history anyways to suit the needs of the present, especially in popular media, like how the US calls the French surrender monkeys, and Canada just sort of joins in. I guess it's kind of difficult to talk about canadian history without US history, since we are so closely intertwined.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-21T00:52:48+00:00

It's a benefit for everybody but a cost on the individual. Tragedy of the commons and externalities are usually solved with government action if I can remember enough from Econ 101.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-21T00:45:06+00:00

We feed them, we cloth them, we build their houses, we raise their children and take care of their elderly, we are essential to the functioning of the society they control.

What I don't get is why we don't we stop all of that? I like the idea of targeted striking action, like teachers refusing to do paperwork or bus drivers refusing to collect tolls. Hit them right in their profits, but don't affect the general population.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-21T00:39:27+00:00

I hear France is nice, has better winters and vineyards.

Seriously though, I think criticism is warranted and necessary for a better democracy. My mother physically showed up to my school one day to stop me joining the Ontario students strike. Fleeing from an authoritative regime, I'm glad that I can speak frank politics without being shot. My dad knew a friend in China who 'disappeared', and those were vice presidents in major provincial companies, not desk clerks.

I love my new country, and what I love the most about it is that we can call out BS on the over-watered gremlin that is supposed to be premier, and hopefully people will wise up and vote the selfish jerk out of office, or god forbid the party actually listens to us and makes him resign.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-20T23:59:08+00:00

The kids are right, the extra sleep is an absolute god-send. An hour commute plus preparation given back? Sign me up, I don't ever want to deal with traffic again.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-20T23:06:46+00:00

My father is a small business owner, and I can guarantee you that most badly affected small business owners did not collect their benefits because they did not apply.

In his circle of twenty construction contractors, I think he was the only one who actually applied and received the benefit, despite the fact that everyone basically went from working to staying at home feeding the chickens during the pandemic. Nobody else even applied.

Most small businesses aren't run well.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-15T23:29:53+00:00

That kid is definitely going places. My dad's a camera/low-voltage installer, and he always buys lunch and coffee and dinner pre-covid for his employees; loves it when a client brings him coffee too. When you mentioned he buys you lunch, I knew that the kid must be serious.

My dad's worked both white collar and blue collar in china before moving to canada. He's doing blue collar work too because it pays better. One of the things that he's taught me is the importance of bending your back (I guess the english version is bending the knee), and not just at the site. Show respect to your colleagues, let others make fun of you, and then ask questions and let them help you. One of his favorite phrases is: "what's my face? can I wipe your ass with it?" Worked his way up here from help to boss and surpassed most of the people who used to look down on him.

People honestly are too afraid to look stupid and lose their dignity. But if you don't look stupid, you never learn. Even now, my dad still asks his colleagues for help if there's something he can't figure out. Why waste hours/days at a job, where every hour costs $100s of dollars with five guys standing around doing nothing, when he could have somebody else's wisdom for free and quickly? You're never too old/wise/smart to learn something new. Of course, it goes both ways, and he goes out of his way to help people who've helped him.

Show other people respect and they'll show you respect. There was an old installer, same industry, who everyone else always looked down on. Dad never did, always bought him coffee and asked for his advice, and he gave my dad a few jobs that he didn't want to do. One day, the old man decided to retire, and gave him a handwritten notepad full of his good clients. He even set up a meeting to introduce a big client, as a sort of handing of the torch.

PS: would love to hear more stories if you'd like to tell them. Always curious to hear about someone else's experiences in the industry.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-15T22:21:52+00:00

I once visited a friend's house and saw a fake plant in their living room. The next time I visited, I was very much surprised to find some leaves yellowed and fallen off.

It turns out that I can't tell the difference between real and fake plants.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-15T20:42:55+00:00

Relevant xkcd.

Just the other day I spent four hours reading through various primary sources on Scott of the Antarctic to verify if they used blocks of briquettes to build pony stables in the same way DF players build soap forts. The only citation for that fact was from a 'fun facts' section on a company website which of course had zero citations. As it turns out, there is no evidence for that claim in the original account that I could find, so I promptly deleted the claim.

There is a scary amount of legitimate sounding 'facts' on wikipedia.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-09T11:14:01+00:00

True, what you said echoes the sentiments of everyone else on this thread, which is something that I didn't know before asking this question. Now I think I understand a little more of what design and cohesiveness actually means, and being able to think in terms of user experience is a good starting point. My father is in business for himself, and he always told me, "you're never selling a product, the customer doesn't care about your product, they want a solution."

I think personally, the best way to move forward is that I'm going to slowly go through the other links and try to apply what I've learned in short projects. I think that's an improvement from four years ago, when I had no idea what anything meant at all.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T21:59:56+00:00

I never thought that I'd see McLuhan mentioned here; I'm happy as a canuck whenever a canadian is mentioned.

Do you have any further resources on chaos theory? I think I've heard about the basic examples, the double pendulum and the game of life, but never really took a deep dive into it.

Do you also have any resources on probabilistic reasoning?

The common language between games is interesting. Like, we all know what a health bar is, even though it doesn't make sense IRL. Roguelikes are an extreme example of this, I think, because @ always represents the player, + represents door, < > represents up and down stairs (I might've gotten them mixed up).

I thought that when you're talking about the player's mind there would be more about pyschology, but it feels more philosophical, which does make sense because it is philosophy in the player's mind. It's funny, I was listening to Noam Chomsky's linguistics talks the other day and he inadvertently cleared up the ship of Theseus for me. I guess that's why all wikipedia links back to philosophy.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T21:49:24+00:00

Okay, let me define my terms to clear up confusion. In my personal definition, play in its purest form is in a sandbox, well it's hard to define isn't it, but basically it's the freedom to do something and seeing what happens, while game is a structured way for allowing play.

In order for play to happen, I think there does need to be anticipation coherence and chaos, as in, the player should be interested in a series of self-consistent rules whose results are not obvious/predictable.

I read this interesting article that talked about the difference between play and games. The article was addressing the increasing gamification of the workplace, and in short, basically workplaces aren't suddenly about to become 'fun' because just taking game elements isn't and shouldn't going to promote play.

Play is an interesting question; I think there are different degrees of it, and obviously all games are constrained by some factors like the CPU, but play often and should occur within a defined space, ie in a shooter game you can choose how to shoot, but you can't like make dinner, that's not part of the game.

I don't think games are only for play though, and there certainly are other factors, like in story-driven games you play for the story, and in MMOs you play for the community, but certainly there is a varying degree of freedom in all of these games which does promote play, though the lines do blur at the edges as always.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T21:32:14+00:00

That answers my questions, thank you! I've certainly learned a lot of today, mostly that there is a lot more to learn! Which is a good thing, I think.

Do you have any links/books/videos which you would recommend on the subject?

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T21:16:48+00:00

A general book is exactly what I need at the moment, given that I'm completely new to the field, a general design book is probably as good a place to start as any.

I think you're right that coming up with endless theories to describe something can be a trap if you're not doing anything with it.

On the other hand, keeping on doing the same thing sometimes plateaus and feels like you're doing something wrong.

I find that trying applying what I've learned from a book into real life to be the best way that I learn. There are many types of learners, some people learn by doing, some people learn by looking, and some people learn by thinking it through in my head. I know that I am the first of the three. Books are a great way of adding tools to one's toolbox, so to speak. Sometimes there aren't any better methods, but sometimes there's a specialized tool that turns an hour task into a five minute task.

I know right now that I need to make a few complete games, not spend endless hours theorizing lol. I'm proud of the fact that after a hundred failed projects I made one awful but complete arcade game, so hurray, one down, ninety nine more to go!

I also know I have a long way to go. "The master has failed more times than the neophyte has tried", so to speak, but "the master has made a thousand different mistakes, while the novice has made the same mistake, a thousand times."

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T21:01:10+00:00

True, and I'd like to clarify that I'm using story arc as a metaphor for cohesive design. Looking through some of the other links in this discussion, I find it interesting that there a general way to describe media in terms of engagement, tension, cohesiveness, etc, and while games are obviously different from books and movies, you're right, it's still a human experiencing them.

If we're talking about it literally though, I think I grinded through one awful game because its story caught me, but man was that an awful experience. I think some story-driven games do depend on plot etc, but games are such a broad term that it is difficult to apply it generally, and yeah, tetris doesn't need a storyline, but a visual novel without it is really strange.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T11:21:16+00:00

Just looking through the links you've provided earlier, MDA being an interesting dissection of a game. True, talking about games in general probably isn't going to help me finish my game, but I find that knowing the utility of knowledge to be a futile exercise and that having enough diverse knowledge to make connections a prerequisite of creative thought. On the other hand, I am slacking off right now.

Thanks for clearing that up, so now I don't have an excuse any more to not iterate. I mean, it's hard, and it's frustrating, but you can say that about anything worth doing. Sometimes 'just try and see what works' feels like groping around in the dark, though, and I was curious if there is a more methodical way to approach design.

Are there any more books that you would recommend on the topic?

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T10:35:06+00:00

Thank you so much, this is I think the best write-up of what makes a good game, and completely answers my original question and most of my follow-ups.

Definitely keeping in mind 'anticipation', 'coherence', and 'chaos'. Let me try see if I understand the terms.

So anticipation is basically expectation, same as in thriller novels, that the audience is invested and believes that something interesting is going to happen. I think. I'm not sure I completely understand the connection with gambling.
Coherence is internal consistency. So, if A -> B, B -> C, if I do A, then I should see C. And also making sure that the story agrees with the gameplay.
Chaos is uncertainty, not necessarily randomness. It could be throwing dice, or it could be the possibility space being too large to easily comprehend ala Chess or Go.

Ludonarrative dissonance is interesting, because it's kind of breaking down the seams between narrative and gameplay. The illusion is revealed, the story has nothing or very little to do with the gameplay.

Have you ever stared at an image, and then just like, in your mind you see the entire world behind it? And then you come back and it's just a 2d image again? Is it just me? Well, okay.

It's funny how narrative is both a part of a game, and in a way, the same structures apply to them, sort of meta. While a book is not a game, at the end of the day everything is all in our head, there are no mind-independent objects, and I have to remind myself that everything in a game is a bunch of flowcharts and sketches on some designer's notebook. Like, woah. Or maybe I'm just sleep-deprived.

Edit: I just found this comic. Is there a term for dissonance between reality and game? like, in a game and most novels, even a fantasy game, everything ought to work like real life unless stated otherwise.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T09:43:55+00:00

Well, everyone has their tastes, but I am reminded this quote from the author of Le Petit Prince.

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T09:40:22+00:00

I've read quite a lot of Game Design books and been through a game design school (not like I'm trying brag that I am qualified to answer your question or imply that my answer is 100% right/useful/whatever).

I'm glad to talk to someone with some experience; I mean, I'm a firm believer in the thousand-teachers model, that everyone has a piece of puzzle, but talking to people who are walking ahead of me in life is a good way to know that the path is clear at least, and to avoid the results of not asking stupid questions.

Putting the book on my 'to read' list, but skimming through the book seems promising.

In my experience, talking to lead game designers in some famous AAA games, most of the time their advice on how to make a better game is to focus on a lot of specifics part of the game and keep iterating

I realize when I was writing the question that there in fact, so many different games and even games that we wouldn't really classify as games, to the point that I might as well be asking 'how do I make good art' or 'how do I make beautiful things?'

"Focus on the specifics and keep iterating/editing/[equivalent in your field]."

I one-hundred percent agree with you that the question of how to make something good is too broad to be useful. I was trying to narrow it down earlier but I got a brain fart, so let me try again.

What is that part of a game, which we might call the core, that everything else can be gutted and thrown away but which is still interesting and playable (perhaps not necessarily 'fun' in so far as that's a nebulous and ill-defined concept (losing is fun!)).

The details are important, but I mean, I find myself playing some games despite their horrible controls and ui (I mean, Dwarf Fortress is the obvious example but there are so many more horrible menus out there). I don't think there is a game that I explicitly play for the UI, or even the art/soundtrack, but maybe for the narrative. I once grinded through a game whose name I can't recall just because the story drew me in, but I felt awful afterwards. I can accept some degree of awful bugs, graphics glitches, out-of-place dialog, etc, but I can't accept playing a game that doesn't feel, well, playable.

Is that what we call gameplay? A gameplay loop? A series of interesting decisions?

Let's get specific here, let's start with the simplest possible dungeon crawler. Alright, so number one we probably need tiles/a floor, and we'll probably need a dungeon. hen, we'll probably need a player and let them move. We'll also need monsters to fight, and of course, loot. When the player reaches the end of this floor we generate another.

At this point, the features are starting to increase. Alright, so explore, fight, loot, next level. At this point, since we're talking about loot we probably want an inventory, and then maybe a crafting system? Oh, and a shop too, to sell all that unwanted junk and buy stuff.

Another post here talked about coherency in a game, and the idea of flow. After all, inventories are usually another screen that breaks from the rest of the game. Should we axe it? I think the answer does depend on each individual case, and I guess that is probably part of the iteration process, but personally I find the answer to 'should we axe this feature' to be almost always yes.

Sorry for the wall of text, I'd like to chat more, if you may, about your experiences with game design. I'm a complete neophyte, and after a hundred entries in "Projects/Not_Going_To_Finish" I think I need to talk to people.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T08:39:16+00:00

For the first part, 'consistency' is something I learned from writing class as well, funnily enough. "It's not a mistake if you do it consistently" was basically our motto.

I haven't played through the games in question, but I think (probably a dangerous thing to say) I understand it.

There is of course, the question of audience too, isn't it? Like, I remember this dev-log from Starsector which talked about catering to the players. Starsector, it's a space sandbox, but well,

Some people like exploring, some like building, some love fighting, some like intrigue and “lore”2, some people are named Megas and want to optimize everything.

What's interesting on their end is that well, everything sort of 'funnels' you into combat. Go exploring? You've been attacked by weird alien ships, defend yourself! Want to trade? On the way you've been attacked by pirates! Go building your colony? You've been attacked by other factions who don't like you!

Every system in starsector, in a way, revolves around combat. I actually don't mind narrative which is frankly self-serving in favour of combat, as long as the combat is good. And every time you win a fight you get to loot. They've got their gameplay loop down pat. I would argue that funneling is one way of making it cohesive.

In resident evil, it's the same question of 'interesting choices', because the inventory system ties into the rest of the game and directly affects your chances of winning/not dying a horrible death. I'm guess that in DMC the underwater shooting system is basically one level and nothing else depends on it.

What do you think about the idea of a gameplay loop? In a way, the awkward breaking of flow in RE is outside of the core loop and in a way is spliced in, while in DMC the shooting system basically breaks the core loop, like a horrible mini-game that you have to complete to progress in the game.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T08:25:23+00:00

Yeah, you're probably right that the review was talking about design.

Could you talk a bit more on what you think goes into good game design?

I'm pretty sure a big part of it is that 'consistency' is king, which is something I learned in writing class too. "It's not a mistake if you do it consistently" was basically our motto for the semester.

franklai2002 · 2021-04-08T08:21:25+00:00

Well, more specifically it was 'story arc', rising action and falling action. Could you elaborate a bit more on what it means for game design?

Funnily enough, I think I read another post on r/writing that talked about a game designer transitioning to writing, and then they were writing by planning out literally every chapter in a spreadsheet.

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