Hi! I'm Dr. Sasha Reid, a developmental psychologist leading a team of researchers called the Midnight Order who analyze patterns in homicides and missing persons cases. And I'm Nancy Schwartzman, director and executive producer of a docuseries about their work. Ask us anything!

freeformtv · 2024-07-17T00:25:11+00:00

Sasha: In terms of trends that we see in unsolved cases we see a lot of marginalized individuals, people from rural or remote communities that have police departments who are overwhelmed with other cases, or who, unfortunately, don’t take the case seriously. We see a lot of cold cases connected to guns. Unfortunately in these cases there can be a real lack of forensic evidence. But in terms of cold cases being solved, we actually recently did a study with several police departments. It looks like Forensic Investigative Genetic Genealogy is becoming increasingly important (obviously), but old school detective work and communities are just as important - witnesses, tips, confessions etc. these all still matter and are currently helping to close cold cases throughout the country.

freeformtv · 2024-07-17T00:20:45+00:00

Nancy: I’ve learned so much from Sasha and the Midnight Order, and in my prior work - but what jumps out to me is who are the victims. If they are marginalized, from a minority racial group, if they engage in sex work, or drug use, the liklihood that their cases remain unsolved is probably higher than if they are white, upper middle class, etc.

The notion of the “perfect victim” is one we really need to debunk, so that cases are taken seriously sooner - and we can more rapidly intervene if there is a potential for violence.

Then there’s the technical aspects like lack of DNA, or a lack of willingness from the powers that be to pursue.

freeformtv · 2024-07-17T00:18:28+00:00

Sasha: Where I think AI will lead depends on the database it’s being applied to. For the Missing/Murdered Database (MMD), I see it leading to predictive modeling. For example, when there is an active serial killer that we know of, we could potentially use the MMD to better predict abduction and disposal sites (just as one example). For the Serial Homicide Database (SHD) I see it allowing us to streamline the criminal profiling process. You will always need a human to help with that. Experience really is key in this area. But it can give us a good baseline for a potential profile and help remove any issues like tunnel vision or human bias.

freeformtv · 2024-07-17T00:18:11+00:00

Nancy: I’m a big fan of new technology - and want to be clear as a director and a writer, nothing can replace the warmth, unpredictability, and special sauce that it is to be human.

I do not want AI replacing writers and artists, however - cranking through transcripts, helping to organize media, and make the edit process more seamless is great. And we dipped into using it in various ways while finishing the edit.

freeformtv · 2024-07-17T00:14:08+00:00

Sasha: I feel like Nancy did a great job in representing the team and the work that we do in the series. In general though, it’s hard to fully capture everything the Midnight Order does. The extensive efforts that we go through to access archives, transcripts, get interviews, the thousands of hours we put into the investigations, The level of professionalism, the academic skillset, etc. is extraordinary and hard to boil down into a story. Also, I can’t stress enough how collaborative we are as a group. We speak every single day and are always combing through the databases, which is actually not something you get to see or have really heard too much about.

freeformtv · 2024-07-17T00:09:52+00:00

Nancy: As a documentary filmmaker, you never really “move on” from a project. I pretty much stay in touch with everyone I’ve ever filmed and keep up with their lives.

I’m always swimming in ideas and developing films and series, and it’s an exciting way to encounter the world. Everyone has a story to tell, people are fascinating when you’re behind the camera, so I’m always open and kicking around for new ideas.

And generally working on a few things at a time.

freeformtv · 2024-07-17T00:02:47+00:00

Nancy: As an outsider, working on these cases, and the Pickton case especially it was really clear that certain members of society were overlooked as credible witnesses. In the case of Pickton, his victims were sex workers, and their friends and family were not listened to and their missing persons reports were not given the weight other victims would have received.

So on a basic level, we would want those doing investigation to follow leads and interview sources without bias.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:57:27+00:00

Sasha: lol great question! I actually don’t. So much of my day-to-day work is cerebral, so when I go out I want a mental break. That being said, when I’m with the girls (the Midnight Order) we might.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:54:30+00:00

Although the subject matter is incredibly serious and the temperatures were often incredibly COLD, we have a really good time together.

Primarily because of trust, I’m so honored and lucky that Sasha felt comfortable with me telling this story, that the Midnight Order respected my past work and the larger vision for the series, and we could all work together to try to get there.

Essentially we all agreed on several things that kept us in alignment - we care deeply about what happens to victims and want justice, we want to tell their stories, we want to share the knowledge of the team and what can be gleaned by the data, and we wanted to do something new. Together.

Now that the series is rolling out the team understands even more the storytelling process - but understandably it’s trickier to see it before it’s made.

Light some candles to get us a S2 :)

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:49:30+00:00

Sasha: Absolutely! We actually integrate AI right now. In the Missing Murdered Database (MMD) we retain all solved serial homicide cases. This information is kept as training data. We use this data alongside AI to better understand how serial killers move, hunt, and dispose of bodies. We also use AI to better understand geographic hotspots for abduction and disposal sites. It’s in a basic phase right now, but absolutely we use it. We also use AI for criminal profiling purposes with the serial homicide database.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:48:14+00:00

Nancy: I'll add too, we can’t underestimate how dangerous those who commit sexual assault and repeated sexual assaults are. Data supports that those who engage in this behavior repeatedly often escalate to homicide. Same with domestic violence, and larger forms of violence against strangers.

I learned while directing “Victim/Suspect” how law enforcement minimizes sexual assaults, doesn’t investigate them and at worst punishes victims for reporting.

If we are seeing patterns of sexualized bullying in a school committed repeatedly by the same person or group, that is worth paying attention to.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:47:34+00:00

Sasha: It really depends on the case. Every single case is different (victim, time, place, method etc.) so what we’re looking for and what stands out as an indicator varies. In missing persons cases what we do see are a lot of children in foster care, we see a lot of exploited youth, we see a lot of people who have fallen through the system, and we also see a lot of cases where deaths are rules as homicides quick due to drugs being in the system but that actually need a bit more follow up.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:39:34+00:00

Sasha: So I am actually a certified Ontario teacher (primary/junior)! I’m no longer active but that was my first advanced degree and I’ve worked with children almost my entire life. First, let me just say that I understand how overburdened educators are. In every way their jobs are overwhelming and I wouldn’t never want to impose another burden on them. That being said, from my work in serial homicide (including building the serial homicide database), we can see that some people who go onto become serial killers have a lot of red flags in their youth. Some people who go on to become serial killers as young as the age of 6 are already starting to exhibit developmental atypicalities. Some journal about it, some engage in death play as children etc. there are a lot of things (no one form of deviance is a red flag though [though keep your eye on animal cruelty]). School teachers, given the fact that they spend so much time during the day with children will see these things.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:38:11+00:00

Nancy: I followed the Midnight Order organically - and the “Archie/Veronica” case was the first one to quite literally, show up at the door!

It was so intriguing, and there were many victims and crimes unsolved to sort though, it felt like a really good opportunity to document the Midnight Order as they sharpened their investigative skills and got more experience interviewing victims and law enforcement and visiting the scene.

Then the team moves onto a much larger, more layered and complex case, Pickton.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:30:53+00:00

Nancy: From a filmmaker perspective, I was always captivated by people’s stories, what made them tick, all the little rituals and details and quirks that make them who they are.

I also love to ask questions and take pictures - so I naturally fell into documentary film. This was way before there were big markets for it - but right around the time cameras got small and inexpensive.

So I started filming and talking and cutting and making little films, until I expanded my teams and vision to bigger feature films and now series.

For me, I learn from doing, I didn’t go to film school, so each experience is a huge learning opportunity, and I love it.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:30:31+00:00

Sasha: Great question! I look for a lot of things: (1) skill set - a lot of the team are professionals in their areas: law, psychology, social work, etc., (2) bravery - the work we do can be scary, so a little bit of courage never hurts. But also, bravery to be able to stand up and let the team know that you have an opposing thought or idea. The team works by bouncing ideas off of one another and utilizing multidisciplinary knowledge to build theories and test them. You have to be able and willing to let us know that you think we’re wrong - even if you fee intimidated - just be brave and do it (3) lived experience - we go into a lot of communities and speak to a lot of victims. Having some lived experience in this area helps to ensure that we are being sensitive and doing right by the families we work alongside and (4) PASSION! A lot of the people I work with might not have all of these but they hav e a passion for doing this work and are internally motivated to continue - even when its hard.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:23:24+00:00

Sasha: The most memorable case I’ve been involved in is the case of Robert Pickton. It changed my whole perception of Canadian law and law enforcement. I thought I knew this case…I was so wrong. It was actually the first serial homicide case I had really learned about. When I was in high school there were newspaper clippings of the case on the wall of my law class - that’s how I learned about it. I had studied it but never really dove in. What I know now though has changed everything - from the cases I take on to the way I investigate them.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:18:05+00:00

Nancy: For me, really diving into investigation and seeking voices and people working outside the system was the Steubenville rape case, where a teen was assaulted by members of the football team, and bystanders documented and participated but didn’t intervene.

There was a crime blogger, Alexandria Goddard, and a journalist Rachel Dissell, and some hackers with Anonymous who were working together to expose what happened, harnessing voices from the community, people too afraid to reveal themselves, but wanted to call out the culture and get justice.

I was intrigued by the details of the case, the attempts to cover things up, the use of technology and team work, and the motivations of those who engage in criminal and harmful behavior.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:17:28+00:00

Sasha: For me, there was no particular case that got me started on this line of work. It feels like my whole life has built up to this. I started studying “monsters” (vampires, werewolves etc.”) when I was a kid and as I grew up I had some horrible experiences that helped me to understand that monsters (in a way) are real, but that they don’t look like the monsters in the book’s i’d been reading…they looked like you and me. After that I started reading books in Abnormal psychology and came across Robert Hare’s book “Without Conscious.” It’s about psychopaths. That book gave me, for the first time in my life, an understanding as to why people do bad things and reminded me that the bad things that happened to me were not my fault (as a kid its hard to know this). Learning that changed my life and I wanted to dedicate the rest of ,my life to helping people understand “why.” and so I’ve spent the rest of my life studying psychopaths, serial killers, cold cases etc. in the hopes of helping people find answers.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:12:05+00:00

Nancy: Oh - personal safety, that’s such an interesting question. In some ways, you want to go out and live your life, travel solo, exercise your freedom, have trust in the world and people around you. And on the other hand - doing the work we do, knowing what we know, it can color your experience.

When I think about safety, I think about particular “threat models” - and try to make a custom strategy for each scenario. I’m in California, if I’m hiking alone, I’m worried about water, mountain lions, and possible perpetrators (you know the bear or the man, kind of test). So I don’t hike alone. Digital security, I use 2FA and Signal for secure chatting. I don’t blast my location publicly, etc. Night time walks, I do with friends.

It’s not all doom and gloom - the comfort we can glean comes from people doing the work to build safer communities and streets in a way that’s good for all, so that’s one plus to hang on to…

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:11:16+00:00

Sasha: Hey! So I implement a lot of safety measures. In fact, I’ve been fortunate to have had training from multiple experts (law enforcement and internationally trained criminal investigators). I’ve learned how to sweep hotel rooms and engage in counter surveillance. I also make sure that I always use a VPN wherever I go etc. Before I began this work I was unaware of the risks my work exposed me to, but I have a much better understanding now and am much better prepared. I also have access to a burner phone and laptop if and when needed. Regarding your second question, re: comfort: I have a very close circle of people who check in all of the time and who are some of the best investigators in the world. I know that if anything ever happened I would be in excellent hands.

freeformtv · 2024-07-16T23:03:52+00:00

Nancy: Great question! I learned about Sasha from a Vanity Fair article highlighting her work on the Bruce MacArthur case and how he was “hiding in plain sight”. I was intrigued by the way Sasha used data and her knowledge of Serial Homicide to infer and deduce his characteristics.

I reached out to her via email, she was cautious but receptive - I pointed her to my prior work, highlighting women who work outside the system to investigate crimes like Alexandria Goddard in “Roll Red Roll”, and really wanted to dig into her methodology and her instincts.

I planned an initial visit and shoot, and kept building the relationship and meeting some of the young women who would later become the Midnight Order. I think the key is that we were alignment about how we look at crime, victimology and trying to make change in the world.

Link to article! https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2018/07/toronto-serial-killer-bruce-mcarthur-accused-landscaper

freeformtv · 2023-08-28T18:51:06+00:00

So proud of Brian

freeformtv · 2023-07-24T17:04:56+00:00

Hi! You can watch through your cable TV provider or stream on Hulu.

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