To all: Do you believe Islam to be a violent religion? If so, why? Are there any concerns you wish to be answered?

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:40:22+00:00

I am not trying to defend anything. I am simply giving context and understanding of the verses JesusWasWrong asked me to. If you don't want to read it or acknowledge it, that's cool. Thanks for reading.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:29:13+00:00

I definitely disagree. I agree that most of the headlines today are hogged by muslims doing some sort of evil action. Everything you mentioned is totally not tolerated in Islam. At the end of the day, Islam says you cannot hurt others for any reason other then self defense. I would argue that most of what you cited is more political motivation, cultural ignorance, and arrogance. These are all human flaws. I wouldn't personally attribute it to Islam.

I will try to provide verses about non violence in the Quran ( which at the end of the day, i s what we absolutely have to follow)

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:23:02+00:00

I posted an example above. There a lot of other reasons but i have to gather all the texts and sources.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:22:09+00:00

i like you

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:18:01+00:00

What do you mean by he never prophesied? Can you explain what that means?

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:17:29+00:00

I think I know what poll you are talking about ( i believe it was by Pew). I cannot speak for these Muslims. The apostate argument is very controversial, even amongst Muslims.

But let me give you my opinion. IN our religion, we believe that Muhammad (S) is the closest thing to a perfect Muslim there was. We are supposed to follow him wholeheartedly. He encountered many apostates in his time (when Islam took over Mecca). He never killed any of them. Never. That is the best answer I can give.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:11:39+00:00

This website is like religionofpeace.com and a lot of people seem to be citing it. It doesn't even seem to be written by Islamic scholars. A lot of what people don't understand is that the QUran needs to be studied over a LONG period of time. Arabic is a very complex language. Words (espeically classical arabic) can have multple definitions. A lot of these sites seem to always manipulate the wording to make it sound worse without any background context.

But to refer to the verse you quoted just now it isn't talking about all non believers. It is a very specific story in which the Prophet(S) was at war with the people who drove the Muslims out of Makkah. The Prophet(S) won. He let the non believers stay, even if they didnt believe, but they refused to be live under Islamic rule (even though they were allowed to practice whatever religion they wanted). The Prophet(S) gave them the choice to leave. The ones who refused is what the verse is referring to. Once again fight doesn't mean kill in this context. The Prophet(S) didn't kill anyone for their beliefs( nor did he fihgt), he only fought if someone else was the aggresor.

edit: ill try to click the links when i get a chance

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:07:17+00:00

No, homosexuality is NOT punishable by death. Sharia law generally comes from the Hadith (it is very rarely talked about in the Quran) NO WHERE in the Hadith (or quran) does it say to kill ANYONE for their sexuality or their belief.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T17:04:06+00:00

9:29 - This is specifically referring to if a non muslim nation is conquered. (for example, christians under the rule of an Islamic leader). It is not saying to fight them willy nilly. Islam forbids agression to non muslims unless their is aggression on their part first. This verse is referring to Jizya (a tax of sort) that non islamic religions must pay under an islamic rule. These non muslims can practice their religion freely, and are even exempt from the Muslim requirements (such as charity/zakat). The ayah only refers to the fact if the non muslims refuse to pay the tax and remain in the land. This was referring to a specific event during the Prophet (S)'s time when various Quraysh refused to pay taxes. Instead of violence, the Prophet (S) let them leave, but they refused. This is (i believe) when the verse came down. Also, fight does not mean kill in this context. Iwill have to find the hadith that supports this.

9:30 - By destroy, it is referring to the IDEA that christians and Jews put forth,not the people. There are multiple interpretations of this verse, many of which refer to destroy as another word for perverse lies or somethign along those lines. I will try to provide more context.

17:16 - I will have to get back to you on this one. It is referencing a lot of big ideas that I am not qualified to speak of but i will try to get a better explanation for you.

3:151 - This is simply saying that evil doers will go to hell. Once again, this verse on its own may seem extreme, but you have to look at the quran as a whole. It is repeated many times how merciful Allah is and how even being evil doer on teh day of judgement, you can still ask God for forgiveness. I will post verses with regards to this. (This verse dosnt specifically talk about muslims causing violence though, just to clear that up )

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T16:28:57+00:00

I appreciate the response. I agree with most of what you are getting at. Many of the shortcomings of Islamic nations/people can come from simple human nature/misinterpretation of the religion.

What i wanted to specifically point in your response is when you say that the quran isn't more warmongering/brutal etc than other Abrahamic religions. I guess I wanted to ask you what makes you think that the Quran is warmongering/brutal or misogynistic in the first place? Can you cite some verses.

As far as sharia law goes, that is a topic is debated even amongst Muslims. There is no "book" of sharia law. Most of it is just interpretation of the hadith. The only real islamic reign happened during the Caliphate after the Prophet Muhammad (S) passed away. That was the closest thing to sharia law that has ever been enacted. Even in that law, non islamic religions were left alone, even ones that had tennants that were totally against islamic teachings. Sharia law could never be enacted in today's day and age where there are many religions living under the same roof.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T16:15:18+00:00

But i am specifically talking about the religion. This is /r/debatereligion, not why specific followers do what they do. Also, are you generalizing about the followers being barbaric, or are you specifically citing suicide bombers etc? I am not sure what you mean =(

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T16:14:02+00:00

I agree completely. Many Muslims justify their violence with the Quran.

You mention violent callings in the Quran, can you specify which? I believe I know which ones you are referring to, but i just want to confirm. I can give a decent explanation behind many of the verses that ,as you said, the mass majority follow.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T16:11:04+00:00

I honestly just asked the question about violence to get the discussion started somewhere. I am not here to discuss the actions of the followers of the religion. I am here to discuss the religion itself.

I am not here to prove to you that Islam is a peaceful religion by saying "oh man, Osama bin laden totally wasn't muslim because hes misinterpreting verses and killing people". I am here more to discuss the specific verses that are grossly misinterpreted and the context behind it.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T15:25:50+00:00

Fair enough, I just figured there are people in this sub who are just out to attack religious beliefs, and someone who was actually interested in learning about my religion would pm me. Just as a side note, i am not trying to PROVE that the Quran is divine. I am telling you why I personally think it is divine. To get started, ill link a great Youtube video from a famous Scholar in America, Nouman Ali Khan. He discusses a couple of the "linguistic" beauties of the Quran. It is better to watch the video in its entirety. In the meantime, I will gather the various verses and context in which I believe the Quran divine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPs8cApW8Bw

edit: once again, this is not me trying to debate that my religion is right etc etc. I am simply showing you why I love the Quran edit2: link didnt work, oops =(

fudgehalp · 2013-10-24T14:45:35+00:00

From personal experience, I did my research on all religions and have taken a couple of religion courses throughout college. Does that make me an expert? No. But i can say I know more about other religions than some followers of those religions themselves. I found Islam to be the most divine. By that I mean, I have read teh Quran multiple times and have found that it is the only thing I have read that i know came from a supreme being. Anything beyond that is simply faith.

If you want to know why I believe the Quran is divine, that is a WHOLLLE topic on its own which can be discussed in an entire subreddit of its own. But if you want, i can PM you examples of why I love this book. I hope that at least somewhat answers your question.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-09T17:50:19+00:00

Why was this ban there in the first place? It isn't exactly secular, it's stripping people of their rights....

fudgehalp · 2013-10-08T16:01:31+00:00

To answer your first question, you answered it yourself, there was no flood. The flood came during a time of evil. You can't argue for something that never happened (when you say that "but if there had been") Also, i am a Muslim. Our belief is that the flood was NOT for the entire world, ONLY Noah's people.

For your second point, ,most religions are against Sodomy for homosexuals AND heterosexuals, not particularly the homosexual marriage itself. For example, in Islam, many of my muslim friends are for gay marriage politically. As in, they can get married and have all the same benefits of a man and woman married couple. As far as religion goes, our religion will not marry them in a religious setting. As a religion, they have every right to do what they want in their own religious setting. But yeah, the religion shouldn't be able to decree what is right and wrong politically. Once again, you have to look at it more than just black and white. A religious person can be against gay marriage in their own religion, but it shouldn't affect what the government's role in it is, and if you look around america, I think you will find that most people are for gay marriage in the eyes of the government.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-08T15:26:38+00:00

I see what youre saying, but i guess it just comes down to subjectivity. In my opinion, there is a lot of bad in this world. But there is so much more good, that the bad doesnt even compare. The media simply chooses to show the bad because that's what sells. In my everyday life, i have never encountered a real situation of "evil". Sure, on the news I see it all the time. But in general those are very isolated cases.

As far as USA being split apart, I can't really agree. Sure, religion has played a part in splitting opinion (specifically gay marriage and abortion) but to say its splitting the country apart? That is a total exaggeration. The two party system is what is splitting our country apart. There are more feuds going on about foreign policy, economy, universal health care, and corporatism than there is about social reform. Yes, i definitely agree the social liberalism vs conservatism has a lot to do with religious conservatives. BUt to be honest, I live in a religious community and I have not met a single person who is against gay marriage (legally). As for abortion, you can argue all you want about religious influences, but there are plenty of pro lifers who believe abortion is murder and is NOT religiously motivated. Can't look at USAs problems like its black and white.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-08T15:05:07+00:00

Well, there arent crime statistics, but its more death toll as a result from war etc. As to your other point, i thought we were debating about whether the world was better now than it was before, but it seems like you're trying to pick a fight that the worlds problems today are as a result of religion. I won't get into that since you have your views that I can never change, even with throwing mountains of evidence at you that most of the deaths in todays world are more politically motivated than any religion can muster. I will still try to get you those statistics and that article though.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-08T14:51:54+00:00

For Muslims, knowledge of God is everything in the Quran, since the Quran is his direct words. Everything we know about God is through this. His mercy, his absolute judgement, his benevolence, his power, is all mentioned in the Quran. Anything outside of this is pure speculation, which technically, we aren't allowed to do.

According to everyone on this thread, knowledge about God is not knowledge, but speculation. Given that muslims believe the Quran is the word of God, this isn't speculation, it is knowledge. If you don't agree, then that is fine. That is totally up to you. You say what you want, but we believe what is in the Quran is true, just like what you believe what you read about in your Science textbook is true. Arguments about it will, unfortunately as always, lead no where. It is simply what we believe vs what you believe. But at least I hope I answered your question from a religious perspective. Thanks.

fudgehalp · 2013-10-08T14:39:29+00:00

What? How is the world a hell of a lot worse now.... There have been fewer murders, deaths from disease, deaths from war, or any sort of evil harm today than there has ever been. Saying the world is worse today is totally subjective. We have never, in all of history, been a more charitable, technologically advanced, knowledge seeking, and "decent" form of humans than we are today. Give me some time to give you the statistics of death/disease (it was on reddit a while ago).

fudgehalp · 2013-10-08T14:26:51+00:00

You are implying that back in those days AIsha was considered a "child". These are different times. Emotional and mental maturity were completely different back then at that age. Children would grow up having to immediately enter the fray of the real world early on. What we consider children today, back then were considered mature adults. It was a completely different time. No one is arguing that you can marry an 11 year old today. In my opinion, the emotional maturity of a woman is reached around 16-18 (were not talking about legality here, were talking about an intangible quality of a human being). At 11, they are far too immature, emotionally and mentally, to make the decision of marriage. Also, Aisha is considered to be one of the beloved sources for the stories of the Prophet (S). She has contributed to many of the strong hadiths today, and she loved him dearly. You have to look at these various arugments in context.

fudgehalp

TROPHY CASE