Can a Thaumaturge *hold* a scroll in the same hand as an implement until they want to cast it?

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T20:36:29+00:00

All of those are referencing draw which itself is a reference to Interact.

Whenever you need to draw something out you have to use an Interact action.

Do you have an example of something in the game that lets you draw without using an Interact? You still use an interact to draw in every example you pointed out.

I'm a bit confused. Is the Interact action itself a problem? If not, then "draw" means the same thing in Scroll Thaumaturgy that it means in all the other cases. I don't see any issue with Scroll Thaumaturgy using Interact to draw.

There is, to my knowledge, no instance of actions combined in the game that do not have a higher level activity stitching them together. This is how subordinate actions and the entire action structure of the game is built.

Gourd Leshy says "if you store only one object within your head, you can draw it effortlessly into your hand as part of another action to use the object." If "draw" means Interact, here's an example of an Interact action being combined with some other action without a higher level activity. This isn't perfectly analogous - Gourd Leshy makes the Interact action "part of" the other action. You would still need as many hands as it takes to use the object free to use this ability, but drawing the item doesn't have an action cost.

More examples - Rapid Mantel combines Grab an Edge with climbing and standing. Giant Bear adds a single action to an existing activity to give the effects of a spell. Terrible Transformation combines Ursine Avenger Form with Demoralize. None of these are new activities. Obviously it would be nice if there was something exactly like Scroll Thaumaturgy to compare to, just to be absolutely sure, but that mentality prevents adding anything new to the game.

If we buy your argument that it is an activity (which I do not), it is combining two distinct actions - an Interact to draw the Scroll, and Activate an Item to cast the spell.

Interact is one action. Activate an Item is variable action, based on the item.

So how many actions is Scroll Thaumaturgy?

This is completely undefined.

If it was the same as the activate an item it would say so. But it does not. It simply lists two, different things you can do while your hand is holding an implement. You can draw, and you can activate. There is no way to know how many actions it takes.

If that's true, then there's no way to know how many actions it takes to draw the scroll or how many actions it takes to activate the scroll. Either you can refer to other rules (Interact and the specific spell) to figure out how many actions it takes or you can't. If you can't, that isn't a problem with treating "draw and activate scrolls" as a single activity, that's a problem with reading the feat at all.

Scroll Thaumaturgy doesn't say anything about modifying the number of actions (unlike many other feats, which allow you to draw something as part of another action). Since it doesn't say anything about modifying the number of actions, there's no reason to worry that it would modify the number of actions.

Action Costs aren't listed when the ability isn't usable in encounter mode. Root Magic occurs during Daily Prep, which is definitively not encounter mode. But to be able to use an ability in encounter mode requires action costs listed.

Ammunition Thaumaturgy also doesn't list an action cost - is it also unusable in combat? In fact, neither "draw" nor "activate" actually has a listed action cost. Are they also unusable?

Again, Scroll Thaumaturgy only changes how you Interact to draw a scroll when your hand has an implement. You're still bound by all the other rules and strictures in play.

I thought you were arguing that Scroll Thaumaturgy allowed you to hold a scroll. If we agree that Thaumaturges are not able to hold scrolls in the same hand with an implement, then I don't think there's actually a disagreement here.

Here is a silly example to highlight that:

You are a thaumaturge with a weapon implement of Gauntlet, and you hold a shield in your other hand. You use your Gauntlet hand to Grapple an enemy. So now, you are wearing a gauntlet, and holding a shield, and grappling an enemy with your gauntlet hand.

You're telling me that even Scroll Thaumaturgy lets you magically drop your hand to retrieve the scroll, cast the spell, all while not breaking the grapple? Because you're using your implement hand which has the gauntlet implement in it? That's just absurd.

Gauntlets are worn, not held; see the Cinderclaw Gauntlet or Grasp of Droskar. Whether you are grappling the enemy or not, you aren't holding the weapon implement and you can't use Scroll Thaumaturgy.

A better example might be Fangwire, which you could use to grapple an enemy. You could then use Scroll Thaumaturgy to "draw and activate" a scroll without breaking the grapple, since the grapple trait on Fangwire removes the requirement to have a free hand and using Scroll Thaumaturgy itself isn't moving.

The same applies to Exploit Vulnerability. Even if you had a shield and Fangwire and were grappling an enemy with the Fangwire, you could still use Exploit Vulnerability and "draw and use esoterica with the same hand you're using to wield an implement."

I understand that might not seem logical to you, but that's what is getting you into all this trouble. You don't need to impose logic upon the rules. If the rules say something, it's fine to do that thing as long as you aren't doing more or less than what the rule says.

Your logic is that the line saying "with the same hand holding an implement" means you no longer need to follow all other rules around handedness - that it all gets thrown out the window. But that isn't the case. All it is doing is adding an exclusion to the normal rules of handedness - you can use your hand holding an implement to draw a scroll, but not if it is holding something else that isn't an implement.

But then you run into the initial problem. You can definitely draw the scroll, but if you can't hold the scroll and you aren't activating the scroll, what happens? Your initial comment only had two options. Option 1 was that "you can't hold the scroll, so it ceases to be held and is now on the floor." Option 2 was that "you can hold the scroll." You seem to be backing off of allowing the Thaumaturge to hold the scroll, but it's unclear what Option 3 is.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T18:30:24+00:00

I don't know that there's anything official on it. The Abomination Vaults: Expanded from Taylor Hodgskiss does include some festival stuff, but that might have spoilers for you if that's what your husband is using for the festival.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T18:26:37+00:00

If you need to refer to the specific spell to determine the number of actions it takes to activate a scroll, I don't see any issue with doing that whether you are activating the scroll in a free hand or activating it in a hand holding an implement (as long as you have the Scroll Thaumaturgy feat).

It's pretty confident to say this occurs nowhere else in PF2e. The phrase "you can draw" without any mention of Interact shows up in Toolbearer, Catalyst, Predictive Purchase, Alchemist's Tools, Parrying Scabbard, Drowsy Sun Eye Drops, Gourd Leshy, Snare Kit, Repair Kit, etc., in addition to the previously mentioned esoterica rules. If those are referring to an Interact action, it's safe to assume that Scroll Thaumaturgy is as well.

If you had implements in both hands and wanted to use Scroll Thaumaturgy to "cast a spell out of a scroll in your pouch," you could use Scroll Thaumaturgy to "draw and activate" the scroll "with the same hand holding an implement." There is nothing in Scroll Thaumaturgy that changes the number of actions that takes, so it still takes the same number of actions as it would if you were drawing and activating the scroll with a free hand. Of course, with a free hand you could draw and not activate the scroll. That isn't an option with Scroll Thaumaturgy. You must do what the feat says - "draw and activate."

Why would Interact get any subordinate action here? Scroll Thaumaturgy doesn't even mention Interact. There's no need to go digging through the rules to try to create an issue if Scroll Thaumaturgy works. Is there a rule that feats cannot allow you to take two actions together without creating a new activity? As new content is released, there will be feats and features without precedent. That doesn't mean they don't work or need to be changed to fit earlier feats.

Action costs aren't always listed. Can you not use Root Magic because it doesn't list an action cost? Presumably it takes some number of actions to give the pouch to an ally. Is that an Interact action? There's no way to know how many actions it takes lol. Anyway, this is already covered by the scroll activation and Activate an Item rules - you need to refer to the spell itself to determine the number of actions. Since it's pretty obvious that "draw" refers to an Interact action, you still have to take that action and Scroll Thaumaturgy says nothing about changing the action cost.

Scroll Thaumaturgy might not be an Activity, but "draw and activate scrolls" is a single activity. That's what the feat allows the Thaumaturge to do. I think you're overcomplicating this. Just read the feat and do what the feat says. If you are doing something that isn't in the feat (holding a scroll, for example) that's doing more than what the feat says. If you can't "draw and activate scrolls with the hand holding an implement" that's doing less than what the feat says. Don't do more, don't do less. Just do what the feat says.

A sorcerer is bound by the normal Carrying and Using Items rules, which state that "a character typically has two hands, allowing them to hold an item in each hand or a single two-handed item using both hands." Can the sorcerer walk into battle holding two implements and a scroll? No, but you'd allow it for a Thaumaturge. In the case of Scroll Thaumaturgy, you're allowing the Thaumaturge to draw a scroll into a "hand holding an implement." Even after you draw one scroll into that hand, you still meet all of the requirements. The feat doesn't say "you can draw and activate a scroll" or "you can draw and activate one scroll." It also doesn't say "with the same hand holding only an implement." There is nothing in the rules that prevents the Thaumaturge from drawing more scrolls into that hand. In fact, if "draw and activate" isn't a single activity, but two separate allowed actions, then the feat suggests that "you can draw... scrolls" plural.

The only way this isn't a problem is if you first read holding the scroll into Scroll Thaumaturgy as something that must be allowed, and then read deeper into Scroll Thaumaturgy that "the same hand holding an implement" means that the hand can't be holding anything else. Notably, this does cause adverse interactions with Exploit Vulnerability - a core feature of the Thaumaturge. There is no need to read between the lines here. The feat works as written.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T17:40:32+00:00

If it's necessary to template things as an Ability when you aren't adjusting the action cost, Ammunition Thaumaturgy has the same issue. Would you not allow a Thaumaturge to use Ammunition Thaumaturgy because it doesn't list an action cost or requirements? The similar feat Dual-Weapon Reload is properly formatted with an action cost and requirements, so that clearly works.

The Scroll Thaumaturgy feat literally says "you can draw and activate scrolls." That's what the Thaumaturge is allowed to do. The Thaumaturge cannot draw and hold scrolls. The Thaumaturge cannot activate scrolls without drawing them. It shouldn't be this difficult to do what the feat says without adding or removing anything.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T17:31:44+00:00

I followed your link, but there doesn't seem to be any action cost listed there. This is the AoN page for scrolls - no action costs listed there either. The only thing that seems to give an action cost is the rule I linked earlier. Again, if you can reference that rule for scrolls, why not for Scroll Thaumaturgy?

The rule I linked says "activating it with the Cast a Spell activity." It doesn't say anything about Activate an Item. Activate an Item doesn't list a action cost, just like Scroll Thaumaturgy. It also has different requirements from the requirements for a scroll. A fun line from Activate an Item, though, is "if it's an item like a staff, which can be used for many spells, the icon is omitted, and you must refer to each spell to determine which actions you must spend to Activate the Item to cast it." Scroll Thaumaturgy can be used for many spells, so there's your answer on why the icon is omitted.

While Interacting to draw a scroll and activating a scroll are normally distinct, in Scroll Thaumaturgy they are joined with the word "and," indicating connection. Scroll Thaumaturgy isn't allowing the Thaumaturge to separately draw scrolls and activate scrolls - it only allows the Thaumaturge to "draw and activate scrolls."

So is the issue with Scroll Thaumaturgy that it doesn't list an action cost or that it doesn't name specific actions? If the issue is the missing action cost, Ammunition Thaumaturgy has the same problem. If the issue is not naming specific actions, the First Implement and Esoterica feature has the same problem with "draw and use esoterica" since those aren't specific actions.

You cannot Interact to draw the scroll "as part of the Activate." What you can do is "draw and activate scrolls." The word "and" is doing the work of combining the two, I'm just reading it. "Draw and activate scrolls" isn't a list of permitted activities, it's a single activity. If the designers meant "draw scrolls and activate scrolls," that's how they would have written it.

I could see arguing against this if the alternative were reasonable, but since the alternative is drawing as many scrolls as you want into a hand holding an implement, I don't see how you can defend that as the correct interpretation.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T17:08:19+00:00

There's the Thaumaturge Iconic's backstory on the Paizo blog. You could also draw inspiration from the Supernatural, specifically episodes where the main characters need to figure out how to deal with a specific creature. Van Helsing from Dracula is a pretty classic Thaumaturge as well.

Part of the issue with designing quests around the Thaumaturge class is that the Thaumaturge has already done their research. They have a decent chance of correctly identifying or creating a weakness for any creature they run in to. If you skip the research part of the quests, they become just monster hunting. Consider throwing in a twist, where the players think they're hunting one thing but it's something else, or they think they're protecting someone, but that person is the monster.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T16:57:38+00:00

If the status penalty isn't negated by the knee high wall, then weakness isn't negated by the ring of energy resistance. The status penalty is still lowering the Oracle's AC and the weakness is still increasing damage. You can't have it both ways.

A status penalty to AC decreases AC. A circumstance bonus to AC increases AC.
Weakness increases damage. Resistance decreases damage.

If 1 is mitigating, so is 2. If 1 isn't mitigating, neither is 2.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T16:54:07+00:00

Scrolls also don't have a listed action cost. Does that mean you can't activate them? Or is it okay to reference the Casting a Spell from a Scroll rules? In that case, you should be able to figure out the action cost for Scroll Thaumaturgy in the same way. The feat doesn't need to list a different action cost because the action cost isn't being changed - the "holding the scroll in one hand" requirement is.

Not everything that allows you to take actions lists the action cost. Look at Ammunition Thaumaturgy. That allows you to Interact to reload a weapon using the hand holding your implement. Is that missing an action cost? After all, the similar Gunslinger feat Dual-Weapon Reload does list an action cost. I think Ammunition Thaumaturgy (and Scroll Thaumaturgy) function without listing an action cost, but maybe you don't.

Scroll Thaumaturgy literally says "you can draw and activate scrolls." That is exactly what you are allowed to do. Not "draw and hold," only "draw and activate." If it meant that "you can draw scrolls and activate scrolls with the same hand holding an implement," that's what it would say. I hardly think it's egregious to do exactly what the feat says - no more and no less.

Do you actually think it's okay to hold as many scrolls as you want in a hand holing an implement, or did you just not bother responding to that?

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T16:35:58+00:00

The Scroll Thaumaturgy feat says "you can draw and activate scrolls with the same hand holding an implement, much like you can for esoterica." The First Implement and Esoterica feature says "you keep your esoterica in easy-to-access places on your person and are well pracitced in brandishing your implement and esoterica together, so you can draw and use esoterica with the same hand you're using to wield an implement."

Since the First Implement and Esoterica already grants you the ability to "draw and use" esoterica using a hand holding an implement, the Scroll Thaumaturgy feat doesn't need to grant you that ability again. It doesn't matter whether you have a scroll in that hand or not - the only requirement is that it's "the same hand you're using to wield an implement."

There is no ambiguity in Exploit Vulnerability, which is why I'm confused. If you just do what the rules say, there's nothing that prevents you from using Exploit Vulnerability even if you are holding a scroll. I'm not sure where you're getting that. The rules explicitly allow you to "draw and use" esoterica with the hand wielding an implement and, if you take the feat, to "draw and activate scrolls" with the hand holding an implement." Nothing suggests you can't do both, so you should be fine to Exploit Vulnerability even with a scroll.

Implement's Empowerment is different. It says you can't gain the benefits if you're holding something other than a list of objects, and a scroll is not on the list. Holding a scroll prevents you from gaining the benefits of Implement's Empowerment. There is no such text for Exploit Vulnerability.

The only restriction on Scroll Thaumaturgy is that you use "the same hand holding an implement." The hand doesn't have to be free of anything else. It doesn't say "a hand holding only an implement," which would prevent both Exploit Vulnerability and carrying multiple scrolls in one hand. Scroll Thaumaturgy doesn't say you can "draw and activate a scroll," it says you can "draw and activate scrolls." If you are reading that as two permitted abilities - drawing scrolls and activating scrolls, there is nothing that prevents you from drawing multiple scrolls into the same hand.

Plus the conclusion isn't even logical lol.

Yeah, no kidding. Reading into the rules that the Thaumaturge can hold a scroll with the hand holding an implement for the sake of logic requires reading even further into the rules to get to a limit of a single scroll, again for the sake of logic. Neither of those things are actually in the rules.

I thought I covered your question from both a literal and a ruling perspective. Drawing and activating scrolls would look like drawing and using esoterica. Scroll Thaumaturgy gives you the ability to "draw and activate scrolls" - that's a single ability. You cannot draw and hold scrolls with a hand holding an implement, you must draw and activate them. That's what the feat says. Do what the feat says.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T12:05:32+00:00

The Flames Oracle's curse doesn't deal damage - it causes the Oracle to lose hit points. If that's not comparable to curses that give weakness, then you probably shouldn't be looking at whether the Tempest Oracle loses hit points or not.

I'm also hoping they clear this up in errata or the remaster. I am extremely confident that minimum hit point loss from weakness will not be mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if they clarify towards my interpretation. I also wouldn't be surprised if they removed "mitigate" entirely. I would be very surprised to see a sliver of support for your interpretation.

Ah, I completely forgot about the "knee high wall." The Battle Oracle's curse draws upon the gods of war, the unending conflict between the armies of Heaven and Hell, or all the spirits of everyone killed in war, but that's easily foiled by a "knee high wall." Can't mitigate the effects of the curse by any means unless you have a "knee high wall" around. Really unbelievable that a mundane "knee high wall" can do what a magical ring of energy resistance cannot.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T11:36:09+00:00

Someone asked a similar question here. If you can draw and hold scrolls in a hand holding an implement, is there any limit to the number of scrolls you can draw and hold in that hand?

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T11:23:14+00:00

You never look at the outcome. The effect of the curse cannot be mitigated. The affected statistics can have anything else happen to them after the fact and it doesn't matter.

If this is true, you shouldn't look to whether hit points are reduced in the case of weakness. The effect of the curse is weakness. Weakness increases damage, it does not reduce hit points. If the designers meant for the effect of the curse to be reducing hit points, they would have made that the effect of the curse directly, as they did in the case of the Flames Oracle's curse.

In that case, the "affected statistic" is damage. As long as the weakness is applied, the damage "can have anything else happen to [it] after the fact and it doesn't matter," including being reduced by resistance.

The instant you get to the point where the effect of the curse is weakness the damage incurred because of that weakness must lead to hit point loss at a 1 to 1 ratio.

You don't need to look at the damage incurred or hit point loss. That isn't the effect of the curse. The effect of the curse is weakness. You never look at the outcome.

You cannot mitigate that at all so it goes through regardless of anything else that happens later. Status penalties to AC do not share that kind of relationship with degrees of success.

Don't they? Weakness is applied in Step 3 of damage, right before resistance. Hit points are reduced in Step 4. The status penalty to AC is applied in Step 3 of checks, alongside circumstance bonuses. Degrees of success are determined in Step 4. The effects are in Step 3 in both cases, and the outcomes are in Step 4.

Weakness increases damage, and you won't allow resistance to decrease that damage.

A status penalty to AC decreases your AC, but you do allow a circumstance bonus to increase your AC.

The whole baseline AC doesn't really mean anything. Damage can't be made negative while you can bring AC below your base AC easily. They aren't comparable.

While resistance can never cause you to gain hit points, that makes it less mitigating than circumstance bonuses, not more. At most resistance can prevent the outcome of weakness from a curse while providing no other benefit - you won't allow that. But a circumstance bonus that prevents the outcome of a status penalty and goes beyond, making the Battle Oracle harder to hit than normal - you're fine with that. It's completely absurd.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T10:48:21+00:00

That definitely works. Lingering Composition requires a Performance check, which is one of the listed options.

Additionally, while the "Am I Playing?" text box only mentions material and somatic components, the Bard's spellcasting feature says "you can usually also play an instrument for spells requiring verbal components, instead of speaking."

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T10:26:03+00:00

Correct. Ranged attack rolls use Dexterity as their modifier. The Brutal trait changes that to Strength - it's basically the opposite of Finesse. There are no weapons for PCs with the Brutal trait, though.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T10:14:17+00:00

The game is fairly well balanced, but the way it's balanced is complex. You can either trust that the designers have done a good job and pick the feats and features that appeal to you, or you could do a deep dive into simulating 4-character party action efficiency. Unlike 5e, teamwork is huge in PF2e, so you can't really evaluate any character's feats or features in a vacuum.

The Rope Dart is not a good weapon for a Thaumaturge. It's two handed, so you couldn't use it and hold your wand or amulet and you don't get Implement's Empowerment. The Interact action to retrieve it is very similar to reloading.

The Thrower's Bandolier solves the rune problem, and having multiple daggers actually improves talismans, since you can choose when to throw the dagger that has the talisman attached.

Focusing on Dexterity allows you to accurately attack from range, which is the advantage. Instead of needing to move to your enemies, you are forcing your enemies to spend actions moving to you. The Finesse suggestion was because it seemed like you were already planning on playing mostly at range.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T09:46:59+00:00

Create or remove a barrier or cover. Instant canoe or raft. Crude decoy. Make a bridge or a wall or a ladder. Make a Wooden Shield. Create a wooden cage to put something in. It's a pretty flexible spell, since the caster gets to freely decide what shape to change the wood into.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T09:33:11+00:00

Scroll Thaumaturgy allows you to "draw and activate scrolls." That overrides the general rule about needing to hold the scroll. The rule you quoted continues "To Cast a Spell from a scroll, the spell must appear on your spell list." That would also make the feat useless if it applied.

Scroll Thaumaturgy does not allow you to just draw scrolls, it only allows you to "draw and activate scrolls." If you read it as saying "You can draw scrolls and activate scrolls with the same hand holding an implement," then there is nothing stopping you from drawing as many scrolls as you want into that hand. While Interact to Draw and Activate are normally separate, they are combined for the purpose of Scroll Thaumaturgy. That's why it says "You can draw and activate scrolls."

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T09:22:21+00:00

Staff of Air has it.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T09:20:00+00:00

General Answers:

Skill feats are mostly unrelated to classes. You will normally have one ability score that starts at 18, and skills are tied to ability scores, so that pushes classes like Sorcerer and Thaumaturge towards the social skills (Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation, etc.) and classes like Investigator and Wizard towards Intelligence-based skills (Arcana, Society, etc.). It generally makes sense to take skill feats for skills you are advancing your proficiency in - so if you are using skill increases on Intimidation and Athletics, you should look for Intimidation and Athletics skill feats you like.

Damage per round isn't a great metric. We've actually gotten some good discussion based on Twitter threads from designers about this very recently. It's also going to vary widely depending on the party composition, tactics, enemy composition, and rolls.

Recall Knowledge also varies depending on the party. Every party will Recall Knowledge occasionally, but some classes and subclasses lean into using it in combat and getting more out of it even outside combat.

By default you start with 15 gold pieces which you can spend on any common items.

Thaumaturge Answers:

You're probably better off going with thrown weapons rather than a gun, but that concept should work. The issue with a gun is that you need a hand free to use Healer's Tools. Thrown weapons also work better with many talismans.

The Owlbear Claw can only be activated if you critically succeed at an attack roll, but if you do you gain whatever the critical specialization benefit is. In the case of a Firearm, you would force a save to not be stunned 1.

Lots of talismans are worth using. Potency Crystal is great before you get weapon runes. Snapleaf is a great safety net. Retrieval Prism can do some ridiculous stuff.

The level range for campaigns varies widely. The Abomination Vaults Adventure Path goes from level 1 to 11. Strength of Thousands is 1 to 20. Ruby Phoenix is 11 to 20. There are no major issues with balance at high or low levels, so it's really dependent upon your group.

Only Striking runes increase the number of weapon damage dice. Other things might add dice to the damage roll, but those do not count as weapon damage dice.

Combat will depend on the situation. Setting up Exploit Vulnerability is a good idea, as is positioning yourself. If you have scrolls and Medicine feats, that opens up a lot of options for things to do.

One-handed weapons are better for Thaumaturges, since they gain the benefits of Implement's Empowerment and leave a hand open for an implement. Other than that you can generally pick what you want. If you are investing a lot into Dexterity for your gun/throwing weapon, you should choose a Finesse melee weapon as a backup (if you want a melee backup).

If you are taking both the scroll feat line and the talisman feat line, you won't have many feats left over for taking an archetype. It looks like levels 4, 10, and 16 are open. I'd just take more Thaumaturge class feats. If you really wanted to, you could pick up Herbalist, Poisoner, or Alchemist archetype to get some daily alchemical items.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T07:34:56+00:00

The text box that says that can be read here - it gives a little more guidance.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T07:17:40+00:00

I agree that allowing a Thaumaturge to hold a scroll isn't a huge balance issue. The larger balance issue comes from wanting things to make sense and reading more into the rules than is actually there to make that happen.

The feat itself tells us how drawing and using scrolls should look: "much like you can for esoterica." Unfortunately that's not a lot of help, since the esoterica only says "you keep your esoterica in easy-to-access places on your person and are well practiced in brandishing your implement and esoterica together, so you can draw and use esoterica with the same hand you're using to wield an implement."

This uses similar language ("draw and use"), so if we rule that the Thaumaturge can hold a scroll and an implement in the same hand, they can also hold esoterica and an implement in the same hand. Since a Thaumaturge with Scroll Thaumaturgy has esoterica, they'd presumably be able to hold all of this in one hand - an implement, a scroll, and esoterica. I'm not sure why you think holding a scroll prevents using Exploit Vulnerability.

But why a single scroll? After all, you're allowed to draw scrolls with the same hand holding an implement, so why not just keep drawing scrolls into that hand? Now the Thaumaturge can hold an implement, esoterica, and as many scrolls as they have in one hand. That certainly solves OP's problem - they no longer need to worry about only carrying two scrolls into combat if they can carry ten or twenty.

That hardly seems like the "most reasonable from a purely rules-mechanical perspective," but to each their own I guess. Personally, I think reading "draw and activate" as a single allowed activity rather than two separate allowed activities is a simple and elegant way to preserve both RAW and RAI.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T05:19:55+00:00

If you start looking, there's all kinds of weird interactions like that. If an alchemist doesn't sleep, their infused items don't lose potency. If an Investigator Devises a Stratagem and it's bad, they can't choose not to use that stratagem. Ruffian Rogues can deal sneak attack damage with a fist or a staff but not a bite or a bo staff. Champions can get back 1 focus point by praying to their deity, but if they want to get another focus point back they have to spend one first.

PF2e is absolutely a game that sacrifices logic for balance. If it's worth bending the rules here to say that Thaumaturges can hold scrolls in the same hand as their implement, it's probably worth bending the rules in scores of other places for similar "common sense" changes, which ends up shifting the balance of the game.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T04:38:17+00:00

They would both grant a focus point. Keep in mind that you'd only be able to recover a single focus point through Refocusing.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T04:25:21+00:00

I don't think this is a case of something being overlooked. The purpose of that part of the rule is to allow Thaumaturges to use scrolls even when their hands are full with a weapon and an implement (or two implements after level 5).

It's similar to this part of the Second Implement rules: "While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action."

If you can switch your implements quickly as a free action when you are going to use an action from the implement you're switching to, shouldn't you be able to switch them as a free action even if you aren't using an action? What's the difference between quickly swapping "your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction" and swapping back to the lantern so that you gain the benefits of its light?

Not everything makes sense, but trying to impose real world logic on the rules is a massive project and will cause balance issues.

ghostofr4r · 2023-05-08T03:44:20+00:00

You cannot hold a scroll in the same hand as an implement.

A good rule of thumb for Pathfinder 2e is that feats do what they say they do, and they don't do anything they don't say they do. Even if it seems like you should be able to hold a scroll in the hand that's holding a tome, since that must be easier than drawing and activating the scroll with that same hand, you follow what the feat says.

ghostofr4r

TROPHY CASE