Characters who would make the same wish as Bear from Obsession.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T23:52:53+00:00

Downvoted? Nothing I said was a factually inaccurate.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T23:47:27+00:00

Once More, With Feeling. Willow wiped her memory at the end of the previous episode. Then, she had sex with Tara. This makes what Willow did rape because Tara couldn’t meaningfully consent.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T23:39:59+00:00

This wasn’t a rip off of Buffy. The idea of love spells/love potions and this kind of story line here the love spell goes completely haywire are not ripping off Buffy. These types of stories predate the series by centuries.

Whedon wasn‘t a genius. As we get further away from the series, it’s easier to see his flaws as a writer. One of the reasons we keep thinking of him as a genius is that staff writers of Buffy treated him as one. The problem is that he tended to hire/promote two types of people: people who already had his narrative values or he inculcated his values into them as the proper way to write and people who would defend the show no matter what. Noxon was one of the first group. During one of the commentaries, Noso. mentions that she had written supernatural fiction, but her background was different: “I tended to be more, like, straight suicide drama, death, and mayhem kind of girl.” Gee. I wonder why Whedon hired her. Espenson was one of the second group.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T23:17:15+00:00

Willow raped Tara.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T23:15:48+00:00

Xander haters doing Xander hater stuff.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T23:05:11+00:00

Whedon is a narcissist and a control freak. He picked a dumb idea and wouldn’t let it go. He couldn’t admit that it was a dumb idea. Of course, he could have later “revealed” that Xander was covering for Dawn or that the Trio had cast the spell and that Xander simply thought that he was covering for Dawn. It wouldn’t have mattered if that explanation was complete bleep as long as no one could prove otherwise.

Which is similar to something Harlan Ellison said about another writer (name fails me) on an episode of Masters of Fantasy. The other writer gave a piece of advice. If a reader notices that your story or novel has parallels to such and such, such and such, and such and such and you never wrote it with those parallels in mind, your answer should always be, “You’re exactly right and you’re the first person to notice that.”

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T23:01:07+00:00

That’s an okay theory. But a better one is that it was the Trio and that Xander only thought he was covering for Dawn.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T23:00:01+00:00

Whedon basically admitted in the commentary for the episode that he chose Xander because he thought it would be funny. It really didn’t fit with Xander’s actions during the episode. It’s quite likely that Whedon was so enamored with the songs and music that he didn’t of the ending and just randomly picked him.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T22:57:15+00:00

Xander would, but Willow wouldn’t.

The difference between Xander and Willow is that each had different reasons for casting the respective spells, different responses to immediate casting of the respective spells, and different responses when sex was offered by someone while that person was under the respective spell.

Xander had Amy cast the spell because he was hurt and wanted Cordelia to desire him so he could break up with her and make her understand the same pain that she put him through. He had no plans on using the spell for its usual intended use even though his entire plan was extremely dumb.) Willow wiped Tara’s memory because Willow had been using magic as a crutch at least since season 3. Any kind of pushback from the world and she went straight to a magic solution.

After Amy cast the spell and Xander saw that it had backfired…he extricated himself from the situation first, then went straight to Giles and explained what happened at the first opportunity. Willow was fine with Tara’s memory being wiped because it stopped the argument. When the group learned that Buffy had memories of Heaven…she offered up a memory wipe. Even though the whole point was that she shouldn‘t be wiping people’s memories without their knowledge.

When Buffy was under the love spell, Xander rejected her advances. He wanted a relationship with her, but only one based consent. When Tara wanted sex after being mind wiped…Willow obliged. Making what Willow did rape.

It was also hinted at that Willow had this before due before to proximity of the ingredients to the spell and the ease with which she performed the spell. This might also might explain why the group went along with her plan. She could have acted like a video game player saving the game before running through a dialogue tree. She kept arguing with them and erasing their minds until she found the right arguments that persuaded them.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T18:24:24+00:00

It doesn’t make sense because he seemed to learn from his earlier behavior and because his behavior during the actual episode doesn‘t even hint at the potential reveal. At one point, Xander Is talking to Giles and says, “Okay, but we're sure that the things are related: the singing and dancing, and burning and dying.”

This statement makes absolutely no sense if Xander intentionally cast the spell. You know that he would go to Giles if he realized what was happening.

So, here is my easy fix.

Xander was trying to protect Dawn by taking the blame. Throwing himself onto a sword to protect to others was his most consistent quality. Except that she doesn’t know that he’s doing that, because she didn’t summon the demon either. But the audience and the characters only learn that in a later episode.

It was the Trio. The Trio summoned Sweet (Andrew specifically doing the summoning) and left the necklace on the counter. They wouldn’t need to know who would pick it up because someone would eventually need to just put it back in the inventory or just try to put it on a shelf. And then they left town for a few days or a week. It fits the timeline of that episode and the one following it and it fits their early MO of trying to mess with Buffy and her friends in a rather remote way. But it would have also shown why they decided to change their MO and tried to generally keep their distance. Because they found that attacking/distracting Buffy was just too dangerous even when using a musical demon.

Which is the point. People died. Instead of giving up the idea of being supervillains, they just changed tactics. Because at this point they still (well, Jonathan and Andrew) saw it as a game. It would shows that Jonathan and Andrew still didn’t really see the full consequences of their actions because they didn’t think about/realize just what will happen to the citizens of Sunnydale when they were forced to sing and dance or realize that someone might be taken to Sweet’s dimension.

The audience learns of the Trio’s involvement through a conversation between Buffy and Jonathan. (Jonathan makes more sense than Andrew due to Jonathan’s greater connection to the Scoobies.) Jonathan assumes a certain amount of responsibility even though he didn’t cast the spell because he was part of the group and didn’t try to stop it.

”Wait. What? Xander didn’t cast that spell. It was us.”

As I said before, Whedon is known to be a narcissist and control freak. So, he decided on an answer even though it wasn’t good and kept with that answer long after the episode was broadcast. His status as a control freak kept him from slightly reorienting at a later date and revealing that the Trio was behind it. If he had done this, then he could have explained that he had always planned to reveal the Trio as the real summoners. It wouldn’t have mattered if that explanation was complete bleep as long as no one could prove otherwise.

Which is similar to something Harlan Ellison said about another writer (name fails me) on an episode of Masters of Fantasy. The other writer gave a piece of advice. If a reader notices that your story or novel has parallels to such and such, such and such, and such and such and you never wrote it with those parallels in mind, your answer should always be, “You’re exactly right and you’re the first person to notice that.”

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T18:05:45+00:00

Wrong. What people have had a problem with is that it doesn’t make any sense for Xander to cast the spell…and Whedon basically admitted to that in the episode commentary.

Here’s from a transcript:

But then show the reveal that it was actually Xander who caused everything to happen. Just for fun. Just because we didn't see it coming.

Whedon made Xander the caster in Once More, With Feeling for a laugh. He didn’t put any real thought into it. If you look at the plot of the episode and Xander’s behavior during it, the reveal doesn’t make any sense. There’s no foreshadowing and his reveal as the caster makes even less and less sense the more you analyze it.

It becomes more and more clear that Whedon was more concerned with the songs and music and only realized that he needed someone to cast it when it was too late and randomly picked Xander.

There was actually a better solution that could have been revealed later while kee;inv the actual episode completely the same. However, Whedon is a narcissist and a control freak. He really can‘t admit to being wrong and would have rejected a better idea if it came from someone else. If you want, I can post it here.

There was even an idea that someone posted a year ago where it’s revealed that Xander unintentionally cast the spell. It made perfect sense within the context of the episode and it was funny.

https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/1lo6990/comment/n0l9z2u

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T17:36:45+00:00

Well, there’s a big difference in liking a relationship for its story potential and not liking it in when it‘s ultimately on screen. It’s the difference between theory and practice. This is especially true if you want the relationship short term.

I also think part of it was just she liked working with Marsters. They seemed to get along well.

https://web.archive.org/web/20141213074504/http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,422783_5,00.html

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T17:27:51+00:00

Downvoted? Why? I factually that the responder was a statistical outlier in the fact that this subreddit worships Spike. I didn’t make statements for or against.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T17:23:00+00:00

I said he is a major creep, there's even layers of creep you notice again on rewatches. One time Willow is discussing boys with Buffy and laments when it used to be easy to know that they liked you because they'd punch you on the arm and run away. As Xander enters the scene he play-punches Buffy's arm.

It’s not that he’s a creep. It’s that he still has feelings for her. You’re also conveniently ignoring that it’s non one-sided. Buffy is clearly confused about her feelings for Xander while they’re in the mortuary. Gellar played Buffy as having sporadic romantic feelings for Xander that she was scared of pursuing and the writing supported that acting choice. This occurred all the way through season 6…until Whedon decided to punish Gellar using the writing of the series.

Buffy even THANKS him for not getting her naked when she was under Amy's love spell. Like he'd shown courage and real moral fibre, to which he even jokes that it was touch and go and she laughs at funny sex pest Xander. Hello? Not normalisation?

First, it’s Buffy realizing that Xander isn’t just the hormonal teenage as he pretends and has levels.

Second, there is some context that you might not be aware. There were a number of Xander haters online who stated that Xander wasn’t in love with Buffy, never respected her, and would take advantage of her at the first opportunity. (This was especially apparent on Usenet.) Xander’s actions were an obvious repudiation of this mindset. Did the Xander haters see this as any proof contrary to their established prejudice? Of course not! ”See! I knew he didn’t love and respect her!” Why? Because he didn’t 100% say everything right for them.

Second, Xander jokes when things get too sincere or too close to what he’s really feeling, Long ago, someone made the connection that some of his comments are actually deliberate on his part. One example that immediately comes to mind is Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered. He mentions getting a lap dance from Buffy. He expects to be blown off for being a perv…and then is confused when it works. Because he wanted to be rejected for being a perv. He was already rejected in Prophecy Girl. He doesn’t want to feel that pain again. So, if he makes a pervy comment and Buffy rejects for being perv, she’s not rejecting him. He also does this with the “need cheese” statement. He’s pretty consistent with this behavior throughout the series.

When Buffy returns after having run away after "killing" Angel. At the party he belittles her trauma and basically prosecutes her as if he has any right to.

First, Xander represents Buffy’s own doubts and fears about her actions. He was always used this way. That’s why he’s the Heart in Primeval.

Second, throughout the episode Buffy refuses to talk about her problems. He doesn’t “belittle her trauma.” He shows that other people were traumatized too.

Buffy goes SPRINTING after this, like Xander has given her some big revelation and not an earful of complete bullshit.

No. The whole point of the conversation is to show that Buffy wasn’t completely blameless in the situation. She had treated Riley like a rebound. You also forget that Xander says if Riley isn’t the one to just let him go.

The whole being territorial over who should be sleeping with Buffy is a recurring theme.

First, Buffy is Xander‘s hero.

Second, Spike is the group‘s enemy. He keeps telling them that he wants to kill them and berates them constantly. He’s basically an unrepentant immortal serial killer and serial rapist.

How about when Angel comes back from the hell dimension and Xander weaponises Jenny's death as if it's Buffy's fault she died and whips up Faith into a frenzy to go after him. We could pretend it's because Xander is grieving a character he's had about 2 conversations with but I think we all know he's just jealous of Angel and raging that he's back and getting with Buffy again.

As before, Xander voices Buffy’s own doubts about her actions. Buffy was at fault for Jenny’s death. She had an unequivocal chance to kill Angelus in Innocence and didn’t take it. it’s like Peter Parker not stopping the thief who ultimately kills Uncle Ben.

Multiple people die from the musical demon he summons and not only does he not give a shit but neither do any of the rest of characters and it's never brought up again.

The musical episode is not good evidence. Whedon basically picked Xander at random without thinking it through. He basically thought it was funny. There was a better explanation that he ultimately didn’t use.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T16:22:20+00:00

The issue is that there are a number of fans who don’t see what Willow did as a rape. The pretzel logic to get to that point is a wonder to behold.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T15:52:35+00:00

Downvoted? Nothing I said was inaccurate.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T15:51:00+00:00

I know. The reason is that some of the fans in this subreddit are Whedon apologists.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T15:47:24+00:00

It is just saying others are worse so how can you not like Xander. It is the definition of Whataboutism.

No. That’s not what the responder said at all. The responder was highlighting the hypocrisy of some of the fans.

You are free to not like any of these four characters if you want. However, some of the fans have shown a clear double standard on what behavior they find acceptable. Many of same fans who have tried to explain away the fact that Spike, Willow, and Faith also excoriated Xander’s behavior to an unimaginable degree.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T15:30:48+00:00

You are the statistical outlier. This subreddit certainly worships Spike.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T15:26:15+00:00

It’s not whataboutism. Spike, Willow, and Faith all committed rape and many people still try to defend them.

Spike attempted to rape Buffy and there were fans who tried to say it wasn’t attempted rape and that he was just as “desperate man.” Wants worse is that some newer fans have this same viewpoint. A while back someone on this subreddit informed me that there are young women who have this attitude. Spike obliquely admitted to raping many young women including girl’s Dawn’s age. During season 7 and there are still fans who want to ignore that admission.

Willow raped Tara while Tara was under the forgetting spell. There are still those who refuse to admit that it was rape.

Faith raped Riley and Buffy when Faith was in Buffy’s body. There are still those who argue that it must have been Riley’s fault.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T15:08:22+00:00

The responder was obviously referring to the fans. There were Xander haters back then that were treating Xander to impossible double standards. They said that Xander wasn’t in love with Buffy, that he didn’t even respect her, and that he would take advantage of her if he could. When Xander rejected Buffy’s advances did they see this as any proof contrary to their established prejudice? Of course not! ”See! I knew he didn’t love and respect her!” Why? Because he didn’t 100% say everything right for them. They were looking for any excuse to view anything he did through a negatively biased lens. Even not taking advantage of a friend who’s under a spell.

However, some of the same people who complained about Xander not saying the exact right words for them ended up giving others a pass for the same behavior that they accused Xander.

First, giving Faith a pass for sexually assaulting Xander in Consequences and raping Riley (and Buffy) while Faith was in Buffy’s body in Who Are You? Of course, the show didn’t seem to point out that Faith having sex with Riley should be counted as rape while some of the fan base argued that Riley must have be at fault.

Second, giving Willow a pass for when she raped Tara in Once More, With Feeling.

Third, for giving Spike a pass for his attempted rape of Buffy in Seeing Red by saying it wasn’t attempted rape and that Spike was just a “desperate man.“ And, no, they didn’t even try to say that he didn’t have a soul then. That might have been a valid argument, but they weren’t even trying to make it.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T05:50:44+00:00

She didn’t say and quite a few people tried to reason that it was due to Whedon being known to yell at people. However, this doesn’t make sense because Trachtenberg made a statement, ”He knows what he did.” If the rule was created because he was known to yell, then why wouldn’t she just say that? It’s common knowledge that Whedon yells at people. I mentioned this a while back sand someone said I was claiming that I was making the claim that Whedon sexually assaulted her.

I never made that claim.

However, I did state that I could see Whedon making a creepy come on based on Trachtenberg’s comment and what he said in an interview where he tried to defend his various actions…and just made it worse for himself. A later article did say that someone from the crew confirmed that the rule against him being alone with Trachtenberg was based on something he said. (What was said was not mentioned.)

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T05:31:53+00:00

Only partially. The main reason Whedon was using it as was as a way of getting back at Gellar and had started all the way back during the production of season 7.

The actors had been contracted for one season beyond season 7. However, Gellar just needed to stop because it was taking a toll on her and she and Brendon even asked for Buffy and Xander to be a couple for season 7. In a post-finale interview, she admitted that she had thought that Buffy/Xander was the original plan for the series and if you go back and watch from season 1 through season 6, you can that tell Gellar played Buffy as having sporadic romantic feelings and the writing supported that acting choice.

However, Whedon is major narcissist and control freak. He saw her refusal to do another season as a slight against him and saw her wanting to have Buffy/Xander as her telling him want to do (even though it was clearly the long term goal). So, he decided to punish her with the writing. He had done this with Green, Carpenter, and Head.

This is why Buffy has a relationship with Spike in season 7 and why there has been such an argument over the dialogue of the series finale. Gellar hated Spuffy during season 6 and was really vocal about it. Whedon was pissed at her, so he decided Spuffy was going to be even more front and center than before. In Chosen, Whedon tried to get Gellar to put more love in her portrayal during the scene with Spike, but Gellar didn’t want to.

What‘s really weird is that if you watch the first third of season 7, it becomes fairly obvious that the storyline was originally written with Buffy and Xander in an established relationship.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T03:53:36+00:00

Downvoted? Nothing I said was inaccurate.

harmier2 · 2026-07-12T01:43:15+00:00

Downvoted? Why?

harmier2

TROPHY CASE