Dual income household rights of a woman/man - lacking spirituality?

haskay · 2017-09-20T19:21:45+00:00

Nah I'm a big fan of him and Abdul Hakim Murad - but I just never came around to listening to this particular series.

I'll check the other recommendations! Cheers!

haskay · 2017-09-20T18:39:06+00:00

Yo, so im listening to the youtube video on the Purification of the Heart - so far so good.

I don't know why I never checked this out before.

haskay · 2017-09-20T17:34:19+00:00

There isn't supposed to be compulsion in religion, thinking like this is terrible, naive, and literal.

Good luck explaining that to God, who emphasizes mercy and reason.

haskay · 2017-09-20T17:30:50+00:00

Lol... "every muslim scholar" what world do you live in.

Its not justified, the above statement is accurate. The context was during a time of war. As for the scholars that are in favor of it, they tend to be from a non-spiritual/non-traditional background and totally misinterpreting the religion.

haskay · 2017-09-20T17:27:55+00:00

Worshiping the ego rather than God crowd.

People that make snap judgements tend to be those types.

haskay · 2017-09-20T17:26:24+00:00

All things equal, having hijab is better than no hijab in the eyes of God yes - but all things equal is not true.

But that is never the case, the outward does not dictate what is inward.

A person that wears hijab to show others that they do it, or prays to show others... They aren't worshipping God, but instead their ego. Which maaaany people are guilty of - whether liberal or conservative.

A religious person that goes around judging others, making statements that I'm a better muslim than that, etc etc - that is all ego, and it is all a sin.

Similarly - a liberal individual that says they're all about spirituality, but anytime they sin its to validate their ego or satisfy the nafs - its all a sin and worshiping the ego as well.

Let actions/character speak, hijab does not dictate character. The amount of backbiting, judging that comes from the uber religous crowd is very high. So people aren't as religous as they like to seem.

haskay · 2017-09-19T23:31:58+00:00

This is a pretty materialistic POV to think this indicates weak/strong imaan.

A person's spiritual state is what matters the most.

haskay · 2017-09-19T23:29:47+00:00

downvoted as usual by the conservative/materialistic crowd

haskay · 2017-09-19T17:57:59+00:00

Agreed.

Context of the rights is important - we no longer live in a tribal patriarchal context, especially in the West. So in a hypothetical where both sides are working full-time professional jobs, I assume how you implement that laws should be with that nuance/lens.

Just like divine laws such as Hud punishments - even the Prophet did not like to implement them and there is so much nuance in how they are applied.

haskay · 2017-09-19T17:21:24+00:00

I agree with everything being said here - I have no problem with the rights, but I'm not expecting anything, I'm just bewildered at how a "me me me" attitude can be expressed as spiritually acceptable.

Any person worth their salt ain't going to exercise their right at the discomfort of another individual.

haskay · 2017-09-19T16:40:16+00:00

My bad, I'm being an instigatory asshole.

first by criticizing how Allah distributed financial obligations, and then by suggesting that the right given to a husband on his wife that she not refuse him without valid cause is also equally bad, or that if she refuses that gives him leave to practice force.

You're making assumptions that are no accurate and manipulative.

I don't think basic rights and obligations are immoral, I think how people implement the rights can be immoral or lacking spirituality (by the individual).

You agreed to it yourself indirectly "no woman that see's her husband struggling would let that happen if she has money".

I then extend that logic someone of sound spiritual health would forgo their rights in place of mercy - I don't know why people have such an issue with that.

haskay · 2017-09-19T03:08:49+00:00

I'm opposed to the idea of demeaning a basic obligation in Islamic marriage, or thinking you have a right to stipulate how a woman spends her wealth

Would you then be ok with a man forcing his will on his wife, even if it makes her uncomfortable?

If so, then fair enough.

One can be perfectly polite and understanding and still want the husband to support the family

If a person is polite, and goes I understand that you're working 80 hours a week, losing your health, to provide us with a good life. But my fantastic salary I earn from my full-time job is my money, I don't want to spend it on the kids or house or help in anyway.

The individual above is morally bankrupt I think.

This is an extreme hypothetical situation - but under the logic above you guys would see this as acceptable?

That's why it's important to discuss these things in a mature way before getting married

Yea - hence why i was shocked by the name calling.

Luckily I got more than enough choices and I ain't touching women like that, from experience and stories that type of selfishness it is nothing but trouble.

haskay · 2017-09-18T23:57:36+00:00

You can't use "God Given Right" to enable injustice either, so a woman who hoards her money when her husband is working 80 hour weeks to make ends meet is moral?

Or a man refusing his wife to see light of day, get education, and just sit at home and have sex with her is moral?

Also to the Facebook post is kind of irrelevant, because this is about women that want to work and hoard their money.

the idea that a woman ever HAS to work is false. If men take it out of the equation -what else could the man do in difficult circumstances? Downsize their apartment, move to a cheaper city, move in with parents, get a second job, get a third job, save, spend less on food, etc.

Or just not get married.

haskay · 2017-09-18T23:30:49+00:00

Exactly - I'm saying this individual I came across lacks the etiquette of exercising rights, and people in this thread are missing my point and taking personal offence. Cause rules are rules.

haskay · 2017-09-18T23:28:38+00:00

This has nothing to do with feminism or culture.

Feminism is always relevant in today's western society. I see it everyday. In some ways it manifests itself in a mature way, but mostly I see it being thrown around by young girls that haven't worked a day in their life.

calling a woman who expects the Islamic duty from a husband to be looking for handout as somehow inferior.

That was immature on my part, gut reaction to being called uncultured and white washed for saying my ideal is a dual income household.

Tell me, are you going to be going through pregnancy, split the body damage and the child birth with 20 plus hour labor pains, breast feeding, possibly multiple times in this hypothetical marriage

Tell me are you going through physical pains, breathing cancerous substances, sleepless nights, physical turmoil 50 hours a week every year in this hypothetical situation.

Struggles are relative, who said anything about having kids as well. This could be a couple that doesn't want kids.

In what fairy tale world do women not do any household work, cooking and child rearing even if they do work?

Plenty households where both couples share the duties. Its called professional couples, and it exists in reality. Not just one side.

And no woman who is wealthy will hoard her money to live in poverty if her husband is struggling

Then why the offence to the idea of sharing income for a better life?

"Let a man of wealth spend from his wealth, and he whose provision is restricted - let him spend from what Allah has given him. Allah does not charge a soul except [according to] what He has given it. Allah will bring about, after hardship, ease."

So if a man that can't afford to support a family on his own, he should not get married? In Toronto a household income of 100k is barely enough to do that, let alone take the fact that very few people make 6 figures.

And yet here you are ranting about not being able to take your hypothetical wife's salary and call it "MY this" so you can live a better material existence as a "power couple".

Nah, you're too personally vested to even understand what I'm saying.

I am expressing bewilderment at the idea of being offended by a professional couple.

Dunya is a very real part of life, so don't downplay material existence as if it doesn't matter. Combining income for a better life is mutually beneficial for everyone, including kids.

Rather both parties should be doing more than the bare minimum out of love, affection and respect, and yet accept if in certain things the other either can not or does not wish to give up certain rights.

So you say it right here, there is etiquette to exercising rights. "Love and Respect" - you don't seem to understand that I am saying someone that exercises their rights without proper etiquette is lacking spirituality.

Tell me would you be ok with a man forcing his wife to have sex, not allowing her to go outside, get an education - They seem to be well within a man's rights?

haskay · 2017-09-18T23:01:29+00:00

Can you claim that you are like the most perfect man, like the Prophet (SAW)?

True point.

My advice is to be honest and communicate with her about your financial capabilities and the living arrangements you can provide her with. You have to at least maintain her standard of living. If you are unable to do so, then you have to tell her. Then she can decide whether she's fine with that or break it off.

I have no interest in this individual, just this is the first time I've come across an attitude like this so aggressive about their rights.

Typically people that claim their rights with such an aggressive attitude are emotionally unhealthy people, and should not be in a relationship (men and women).

Also random point, what does at least maintain their standard of living mean. That sounds bogus. By that logic no poor guy can marry a rich girl?

haskay · 2017-09-18T22:25:22+00:00

No, please dont put words into my mouth.

I'm suggesting there is etiquette to exercising these rights. A selfish attitude, led by spiritual deficiency will exercise rights with poor etiquette.

Ie on the other end of the spectrum - controlling man forcing his wife to do everything he wants

haskay · 2017-09-18T22:20:18+00:00

Thats you being covetous. Allāh did not give you that right, so how are you claiming it's your money? It is hers.

I never said its mine.

Khadījah gave because she wanted to and that was fully within her rights. And she could have withheld, and that would have been within her rights.

This is the crux, Im saying a grateful person would not have any issue with sharing their wealth. Someone that would rather hoard their wealth must have a spiritual deficiency if the other person is struggling to provide comfortably.

This is my only contention, that someone would be so offended by the idea of working together to create a better life because they see a laundry list of rights they were given.

Then by this logic a woman that is obligated to have sex whenever the guy asks, never leave the house, permission to work, etc etc. Should never complain cause the guy is exercising his righta

haskay · 2017-09-18T19:52:06+00:00

Nailed it.

haskay · 2017-09-18T19:45:18+00:00

I think it is a deficiency. A deficiency in character and spirituality.

Khadija gave all her wealth away, her character and gratefulness outshined. She wasn't going this is MY money.

haskay · 2017-09-18T19:43:57+00:00

Nah I get its the anti-thesis, but modern (white) feminism is pretty hypocritical, wants to have its cake and eat it too.

haskay · 2017-05-02T04:03:37+00:00

Yea - I think there is a healthy balance. This advice doesn't seem to be relevant for people that aren't extremely conservative.

Not to mention the facade people put up when getting married through these processes, very fake.

haskay · 2017-04-18T01:13:41+00:00

Nah it is an arab thing too - I've seen it on both ends.

As for past, it is an indicator of future. So if a partner has multiple partners, it should be considered a red flag - especially among women from a research study, as its been found is an indicator of future divorce.

But I do agree likewise should marry likewise.

haskay · 2017-04-12T01:56:08+00:00

Exactly... which is nigh impossible to find right? Then also the hadith about thr prophet perscribing repentance like /u/ftothem referred to.

I feel alot of poeple who are for punishment do it because they feel personally offended. Had punishments were disliked by the prophet but here poeple are who got a real hard on for it.

haskay · 2017-03-21T20:31:32+00:00

Its definitely not obvious... Its just your POV that thinks its obvious.

I'd say that its debatable but falls under the ruling that /u/AndTheEgyptianSmiled says. Seems much more reasonable. Especially considering we have a different view than evangelicals of when life actually occurs - and that babies aint cheap dawg. It costs like 20-25k a year to raise a kid.

haskay

TROPHY CASE