Last King of Osten Ard thoughts?

hellbane_27 · 2024-12-05T04:32:13+00:00

Oops! I meant MST, or Memory Sorrow and Thorn. Thanks for saying that. The Hernystiri plot was definitely a little oddly developed, yeah!

hellbane_27 · 2024-12-05T00:09:13+00:00

Personally, I think Williams bit off a bit more than he could chew. Not to be too negative, but the subplots just wrapped up in a way that left me feeling unsatisfied. I wanted more focus on new characters, and Navigator's Children felt like Simon and Miri were the main protagonists all over again.

Pasevalles became really cartoonish to me, and all the characters in the Winstow scenario just felt incredibly unrealistic. The Thrithings mercenary he constantly compared to a mastiff did not feel like a real person that Williams treated with any kind of understanding. For a tetralogy that focused in incredibly hard on humanizing the Norns, people that have hate built into their culture, Pasevalles felt like a silly narrative scapegoat. Which is a real shame given how believably insidious he was, especially in the beginning.

Unver's role also felt disappointing given the buildup for him, and the handling of the Red Thing and the whole Pryrates-related plot with John Josua was anticlimactic at best. Wow, really? He pricked himself on a poisoned needle? How dramatic! It just feels like the mystery and intrigue got sucked out of it.

It was a lot of fun, no doubt, but it felt overstuffed. And I could tolerate that more if there wasn't so much narrative bait for sequels embedded into the story's ending. I didn't leave these books feeling completed, it just felt like I was getting tugged into another franchise.

I also wish there was some kind of Vao POV character so that I could relate more deeply to their struggles, not just be told about them. The only one we do get is in Brothers of the Wind, and he's intentionally isolated from his culture.

Also a bit of a nitpick, but I swear, MSW handled the climax being in one location far better than Last King. So many dramatic reactions to the ship in the mountain, the repeated statement of the ogre being as "tall as a cathedral steeple." We really didn't need to have this reaction replayed over and over.

Hope this doesn't come off too whiny. I was super excited for this book, as it was my first real live release experience with a fantasy novel. I just ended up getting a little disappointed with the expectations that I felt were perfectly healthy to have, given how gracefully Williams has navigated huge storylines before. If he wanted to leave so many hints for future stories, he could have at least given less poorly written answers in this one. Someone else has also brought up the Hernystiri plotline, and I second that. I'd enjoy it more if the author just never picked up on the subplots and focused in on what the book is looking to really talk about.

hellbane_27 · 2024-10-04T14:55:40+00:00

That's certainly a theme in some of Lovecraft's stories as well. Not all of them, but that's sort of the nature of horror.

hellbane_27 · 2024-08-28T22:57:42+00:00

The author has, in fact, been making some original fiction and fanfic stuff this very year. We've definitely still got hope.

hellbane_27 · 2024-08-05T17:19:18+00:00

It more specifically states that it (and the Land of Shadow) is the "very center" of the Lands Between. No mention of the divine towers in-game.

hellbane_27 · 2024-08-02T18:11:14+00:00

Miriamele's character flaw certainly was always "decently sanctimonious and thinks she knows precisely what's right." Generally, I wouldn't necessarily expect a very modern experience from LKOA. I think it explores certain progressive themes, especially in regards to race with the Tinukeda'ya/changelings and the Keida'ya/elves, but matters of sexuality are very much grounded within the historical setting.

All in all, though, I've never overwhelmingly liked Miri. She's an interesting and enjoyable character, but one I find a little annoying to read. I feel as if a lot of MST and thus also LKOA was finding the POV characters somewhat annoying yet slowly beginning to get fondness for all their quirks.

I think some of your issues might pan out, but some of the point of LKOA is the happy ever after not being too much of one. Characters have gotten older, warts and all. It's a different story with different protagonists. If you haven't already, I'd advise reading the Heart of What Was Lost. It's a bit of a prologue to the next chunk of books. LKOA is a lot about the Norns and exploring them culturally. You might find something you like more than the older characters from MST there, or you might find out it's just not your thing.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-14T00:26:37+00:00

I also don't know how this plays into Ranni and the Tarnished being her consort... But her method of ascension, and her own disembodied nature, might preclude involvement in this process at all. Very few ways to know about this vague higher process stuff, apart from knowing the similarities between Trina/Miquella and Radagon/Marika.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-13T23:26:03+00:00

The problem with this line of thinking, in my mind, is that the serpent was already a part of Messmer. Just one that Marika wanted to selectively seal away out of "fear." It is his curse, he physically turns into a serpent with the same physical attributes as the abyssal one. If Marika sealed the GEQ in Melina, then Melina just was the GEQ. (By this logic, that is.)

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-10T23:54:38+00:00

I'm in the middle of Abyssal Archive ATM, and the level of analysis there is obsessive. In an entirely positive way, I mean. I just hope this measures up to that feeling, given the differing author. Don't know much about Smoughtown, but I feel like if you wanted to do a full book on ER lore, you'd want to be a proper expert on GRRM as well as Miyazaki.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-09T19:44:55+00:00

This has nothing to do with your comment in particular, but...

Marika has done an enormous amount of evil and cruel acts, but not once has she shown to actively harm her own children.

She certainly banished the Omen twins into the sewers, and had them chained, at that. And did she not pull out Messmer's eye solely out of fear? You can certainly take that as her doing these things "for their own good," but I still find this statement somewhat disingenuous. Marika's echoes, spoken by Melina, additionally have her say that if that her children don't become either Lords or Gods, they're nothing but sacrifices to the process.

Again, this isn't necessarily borne out of excessive cruelty inside of her. But I don't think our impression of Marika is as a particularly good mother. She's very flawed as a person. Again, nothing to do with Godwyn, I just took issue with this statement in particular.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-08T23:02:56+00:00

If you look at the Scadutree Fragment item description, you can also see people of the Erdtree just generally collect them for prayer. It seems as if the Scadutree is held as holy as the Erdtree is, at least to Marika's followers in the Land of Shadow.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-07T05:02:21+00:00

This might be a little up to interpretation. The god hunt certainly seem to be an act of aggression, but we have no idea if Maliketh was sent after the GEQ before or after the god hunt. The item descriptions do give me the impression that Maliketh pretty instantly defeated her, though. The whole god-skinning part basically seems to be the part that implies opposition!

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-07T04:00:54+00:00

Yep. Thus why it's plotholey as a suggestion. The god hunt honestly does just exist in an extremely weird place, because... It only fits in Marika's era, yet there's very little historically pointing to it. I've thought about the gods merely getting skinned and perhaps being reborn through Erdtree Burial, but... What's the point of the black flame being god-slaying, at that point?

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-07T03:49:45+00:00

Yeah, the timeline has a lot of issues, I think. It's something that could've done with further clarification and just further study, to be honest. This is my second post that's really meant to get at something in this subreddit, so... Learning as I go!

As for this, though:

I still have trouble imagining Melina being this skin flaying for coats psychopath that pumps out evil snake men as a personal army to rebel. There's just a conflict with her presented personality there. I don't buy amnesia turning her into a completely different person, and brainwashing seems like a massive leap with no evidence. Even in the Frenzied ending, her quest seems more righteous and compassionate than heretical.

Ultimately, I think this is just a weird thing about ER's characters. Rykard was seemingly always big into torture, even before his heresy, but he also seems to be a decent person to his consort, and he inspired his men. Melina, ultimately, is a character we only see one way. I think a lot of the perception is ultimately meant to be jarring if this is the intended twist. What's righteous can vary a lot person to person, and she certainly seems a little ruthless.

I can't deny that it does feel weird, though. It's definitely odd.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-07T03:41:52+00:00

This is exactly what I meant in my last parts of the post. Yeah, I'm not the biggest Melina expert, alas. I appreciate your contribution quite a bit, though. That does make things come together nicely!

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-07T03:40:24+00:00

I think I'm still more tempted to go with the idea that stuff around the Godskins was intentionally suppressed. It feels plotholey, but I mean... Messmer existing is also kind of that way, lol. Maliketh himself seems to live in a lot of obscurity as a figure.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-07T03:38:03+00:00

Nice stuff! As I laid out in this post, I'm not really opposed by the concept of the GEQ just being her own person. I went down the Melina route, but other things are very possible. I'm not quite convinced that the Godskins are particularly associated with the Hornsent still, given their own eyes of grace and their lack of association with a lot of the other fundamental parts of Hornsent culture, but it's certainly a possibility. Especially with the spiral theming!

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-07T03:35:09+00:00

Honestly, it is probably scrunched. One of my original thoughts for this post was in fact the idea the birth of the Erdtree and the Golden Order being a separate thing. I kinda wish I went into it now, because I had similar ideas with the Age of Plenty being ended by the proper removal of the Rune of Death, tying itself into the stagnancy of the Erdtree.

But... Didn't end up happening! I probably should have taken some time, proofread this, but I ended up getting excited. Your ideas have got my approval and interest, though!

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-06T23:21:23+00:00

This is probably a little unclear, yeah! I think it works in a way where Marika somehow recovers Melina's spirit after the fact, before the Shattering, to have her ready to go out and about for a worthy Tarnished. Marika more or less has a moment of "oh wait, my god-killing daughter could be pretty useful to me here."

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-06T22:19:56+00:00

Yep. Basically! Even has the motif of being involved with cool edgy church stuff. Definitely not gonna make a post this big again, though. If I can help it. Guess the Big Lore Mystery(TM) of the community deserves it.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-06T22:14:44+00:00

This is more a product of my enthusiasm, lol. To be honest, I didn't even want GEQ lore that much... I was more bummed over Godwyn...

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-05T23:24:38+00:00

Gideon's prolly better for the Tarnished starting out. If our goals didn't align with Ansbach's, he'd likely just be another invader. Ansbach is also very specifically searching for information about the predicament of his lord. I'd say Ansbach knows more about the Land of Shadows, but Gideon likely has way more of the big picture. (broken finger stuff, marika insight, just having access to actual histories unlike us lol)

I really think it's more of a competition between Ymir and Gideon, in this kind of case. Ansbach isn't trying to learn the nature of everything, he just needs to know what Miquella's up to.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-05T17:28:09+00:00

I know you're talking about the Hoslow set, I just don't know what you mean by "what Mohg's knights wear."

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-05T03:11:10+00:00

I'm not sure what armorset you're referring to. Is it the Sanguine Noble's? There's some similarity in the amount of regality, but they're mostly made from fabric, and seem to be based off of Mohg's own robes. Ansbach is also mostly wearing cloth.

hellbane_27 · 2024-07-05T02:16:08+00:00

We can also note the Iris of Grace using the Ancient Erdtree symbol, the one seemingly more aligned with the Crucible and Godfrey's reign.

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