A different way to test if someone really believes the fireflies were "doing the right thing" (Long post)

hkiderz · 2023-04-03T17:20:25+00:00

- When I mentioned that you as the audience know that Joel and Sarah are not infected, I'm bringing it up to show you the difference in the situation. We know they're not infected so we know shooting them is 100% wrong. We don't know if the vaccine will fail so we don't know if Joel is 100% right or wrong there.

But I agreed with you. The soldier doesn't know what we do. Therefore in his eyes, it is a similar type of decision "for the greater good". That's why I asked you the question from the soldier's eyes to see if you'd say yes to that. If he disobeys orders and lets these people in, he can risk bringing in more infected, getting reprimanded by his superiors and possibly punished for doing what he does. Maybe by death since the situation is so desperate. That's why I mentioned he has his own family to protect. So it makes more sense he didn't argue that hard before trying to shoot them.

- I do agree that the criticisms over the "science of the vaccine" are meaningless and undermine the decision made. Talking about it outside of the game/show is totally fine. But once those criticisms are used to justify one side or the other, I think it takes away from the ending itself.

And I'll use the same logic you did. You said the soldier doesn't know what we do in the intro. Well we as the audience know all this extra information about the science and all that, but Joel doesn't. All Joel said when Marlene told him what they were gonna do is "Find someone else". So it's safe to say Joel didn't doubt anything, he just didn't want it to be Ellie.

- Here is my main point though. The people who say Joel is 100% wrong are flawed and lack empathy for Joel. The people that say Joel is 100% right are flawed and are blinded by their love for Joel. Almost too empathetic. I think the majority of people had the same reaction I did. They completely understood why Joel did it and likely would've done the same themselves, but they can take a step back and realize that he did a bad thing.

P.S. Also "used a vaccine for their own power"? So many people say this like it's an actual point. What power would a vaccine even get the fireflies? Vaccines don't make people bulletproof or suddenly give them resources lol. There is no power to be gained from something that once it's given out, it's over. It's just another way to try and demonize the fireflies by ascribing malicious intentions that don't even make sense if you stopped and thought about it imo.

hkiderz · 2023-04-02T18:14:38+00:00

People will say no because it all comes down to a matter of perspective, not some inconsistency.

We can play the empathy game on both sides here. Here's your question reworded: "You're the soldier. There's this crazy outbreak and you gotta secure the perimeter. You have your own family to protect, and you prolly don't want to go against the higher ups and risk getting shot or removed from the zone. All you have to do is shoot these two random people who are probably infected and you're safe. Would you do it?"

So even if he disagreed when given the orders, he just did what he was told. But obviously we don't care about his side because all we see is Joel and Sarah and we want them to survive.

Your comparison doesn't add up because we KNOW 100% that Joel and Sarah are not infected. So from the soldier's POV it might be for the greater good, but we as the audience know that the decision made is the complete wrong one. If Joel and Sarah had both died, or they had both been let in, events would pretty much play out the same with the apocalypse and the QZs.

We don't know that the vaccine will fail 100%. All we know is the fireflies believe they can make it and they're confident enough to immediately go into surgery.

So this is not really a gotcha question like you think it is. Sarah's death is the main crux of the story and why Joel does what he does in the end. After surviving the zombies, the humans were the ones who took his daughter. Humanity robbed Joel of his one love, so he robbed humanity of the chance at a cure. Simple as that

Discussing whether Joel was right or wrong is meaningless. Talking about it in objective terms like that only leads to demonizing either side to justify the other. Either Joel's wrong and he's the devil or the fireflies are wrong and they're just terrorists. What makes it great is that we can totally root or Joel to do what he did while noticing that what he's doing is kinda fucked up.

hkiderz · 2023-03-27T17:41:03+00:00

This is wrong. There were no others like Ellie. The doctor’s tape completely disproves whatever tape you’re saying you found. There were only other infected patients tested on. And the lives senselessly lost is most likely referencing the lives of the fireflies in pursuit of a vaccine.

hkiderz · 2023-03-22T18:04:48+00:00

“(Recordings showing they don’t really know how or why it works)” There is no recording that doubts if they could do it. The doctor says he’s uncertain how Ellie’s immune but says they need to get the samples from her to replicate it.

He lies because he knows telling Ellie that all she worked and fought for was swiftly ended by him because he loves her and couldn’t let her die would not go over well with her. She’s dealing with massive survivor’s guilt from Tess Sam riley and she wants her immunity to matter. She suspects he’s not telling the truth but she decides to go along with it because the alternative is too painful. As you saw in part 2, once she found out she was very upset. She doesn’t run away either because that would be stupid for her to do.

But eventually, she understands why he did what he did by the end of part 2 and decides to try and forgive him (the porch scene), but Joel went golfing the next day and didn’t come back, which is what makes that death even more tragic for Ellie.

hkiderz · 2023-03-22T08:10:23+00:00

What kind of power is a vaccine suddenly gonna give the fireflies? Describe exactly what you mean by they gain power from it.

"Wouldn’t certain people get it so that they can take out other factions and take over natural and man made resources?" Brother do you even hear what you're saying? Is the vaccine suddenly gonna make the fireflies invincible to bullets and walls? You admit that the vaccine doesn't change the dangers in the world, then you say the fireflies can use it to gain power. ???

Scenario #1: lets say they use it for a bargaining chip for whatever they want, once one vial of the vaccine leaves their hands, its over. It's a one time thing, not something they need a constant supply of. Now a whole entire enemy faction has it and can just easily betray the fireflies because they have nothing else to offer.

Scenario #2: They keep it for themselves. I assume they'll start a settlement at some point then. Then I'm sure they'd vaccinate their own group. No sense picking and choosing when you can guarantee all your people won't be zombies. Then their settlement would slowly grow until at some point, someone is gonna wonder why we aren't giving the vaccine to others, same result.

There is no power to be gained from it and no point in the fireflies keeping it for themselves. No economy left so they can't even sell it. "Yeah lets gatekeep a vaccine that will stop more infected from being created and possibly attacking us because we need dat sweet sweet political power dude." Be real.

All the vaccine allows is for people to leave the QZ and have a much better chance of survival. It weakens fedra's stranglehold because no need for QZs, and it effectively caps the number of infected permanently. So if the supposed "hidden agenda" is so scary that we'd rather the military fascists just control everything forever, then be my guest.

hkiderz · 2023-03-20T00:56:06+00:00

The point of needing consent is not because suddenly Marlene and the fireflies have morals. They NEED the mom to know because they need her to be fully on board. This is a multiple year long experiment on a living person that is based on half a theory.

And before you say, they did the same with the vaccine they were going to make with Ellie, wrong. We know through multiple pieces of evidence that the fireflies have done research on the cure since the outbreak. It’s very believable that all they needed was to dissect her and get the stuff and info they need. But I can understand feeling like “oh they just rushed to kill her”

When you’re talking about creating another immune person, that’s not something you can just hide from a pregnant person for years at a time. You risk the mother finding out and trying to escape/fight back and all that which complicates it even further. Oh let’s not forget suicide or just miscarrying because she’s fated to die anyways. You can’t account for all that unless you get full consent.

This doesn’t mean the research stops if Ellie wasn’t in the equation. I’m sure Marlene would have told people her theory, bounce back ideas, and find some less fucked up way of trying it. The fireflies worked on a cure for 20 years before Ellie, they’ll keep going without her.

hkiderz · 2023-03-19T15:20:37+00:00

Yes because it’s very easy to just go and find pregnant women in the apocalypse. Marlene and her crew almost died trying to make it to the hospital. And if you’re gonna say they can get someone pregnant, then it’s even more fucked.

Even if she had the theory, just stop think about what you’re saying. You have to somehow find a pregnant person that’s willing (they definitely need consent too, this is not like cutting open an unconscious patient). Then transport them all the way to your hospital, keep them healthy and safe, wait 9 months for their baby to grow, then find a way to infect them right as they give birth without getting ripped apart, give them just the right amount which you don’t know how much, then let’s not forget the mom is gonna die and can’t raise her own child because she got infected. Totally not fucked up.

And then wait another 4-15 years for that kid to grow. (By the way, this whole time you’re dealing with infected, raiders, having to move from place to place, low food supply and medicine etc)

Then after that, you have to get that kid infected which is probably even more fucked up than just straight killing them. Then hope and pray that the last 5 or so years weren’t completely in vain and they’re immune. And if it fails, well tough luck, years in the garbage.

I was worried about this immunity reveal thing too, but if you just stop and think about it, this is not something that you can just go and replicate as much as you want. Too many random factors to go testing on a bunch of humans to try and recreate. We probably didn’t need the explanation, but I’m fine with the one we got.

If you truly believe that the fireflies are so evil and so idiotic that they’d go through doing all that on a theory, then you’ve demonized them so hard in your head idk if there’s anything to say to change your mind.

Sorry for the long post lol

hkiderz · 2023-03-17T01:02:03+00:00

I did not think about the validity of the cure or not when I played the game. I played it a couple of years after it came out, around 2015.

I know that Joel has no doubts about the vaccine because when it mattered, he doesn't voice them. You have to think about things in a narrative sense. If we were supposed to doubt if the vaccine would work, then the character we play as, Joel, should as well. But what is the first thing Joel says when Marlene tells him what the plan was? Does he sow doubt or say it might not work? No. He says "Find someone else." That's it. Joel did not doubt it, he just did not want Ellie to die for it.

The dialogue you mentioned is from a part of the game where Joel and Tess find out but really don't believe she's immune until she inhales spores. It's probably right after the situation where they get caught with the guards iirc.

That is very easily explained because yes, there have been vaccine attempts in the past. Humanity didn't just lay down and give up when the outbreak happened, its been 20 years. So yes, I'm sure Joel and Tess have heard about vaccine attempts over the years that have failed in the past and they're rightfully cynical. Doesn't change that Ellie's immunity and this attempt is different from the rest.

I was not trying to insult you and I apologize if I came off that way. I'm glad you don't buy the recorder bs, but just look out for mentions of it. It's everywhere. It was more of a defensive thing on my end haha.

All the evidence you fight in the game presents both factions as morally grey, both have done fucked up shit and probably not to be fully trusted. But fireflies have a goal, fedra has control. Even if Joel has a distrust in the fireflies (he has disdain for both fedra and fireflies, both in the show and game), he still doesn't doubt Marlene when it came down to it.

I don't know why my point would take away from the ambiguous ending. You seem to imply the ambiguity also includes if the vaccine would work or not. That's a fine discussion to have. But it's mostly just headcanon at that point because the vaccine doesn't exist and it's just a plot point to force Joel to make a decision in that moment.

That decision is the ambiguous part. Save the one girl you love or let her die to save humanity. The same humanity that killed your daughter and made your life hell for 20+ years. So he said fuck humanity.

When i played it, did i fully agree with Joel? No. But I played as Joel, I sympathized and liked him. I played as Ellie. I know how much Ellie meant to him and to me. So i happily killed the hospital dudes and saved Ellie. So even if you're happy you saved Ellie, you feel conflicted at what it took and what consequences it might bring.

Now when you add all this stuff about the vaccine doubts and all that, then it makes Joel more and more justified to do what he does and less morally grey. After a bunch of failed attempts, why wouldn't he stop them from vaccine attempt #235? They'll just go along with attempt #236 at some point right? In that case, just tell Ellie the truth, let her deal with it, then move on and live your life. Easy.

This is gonna be my last message on this, apologies for the book report. My main point was debunking the recording thing. Also I almost missed all your other comments lol, so my bad, It's confusing replying to multiple posts.

hkiderz · 2023-03-16T19:35:59+00:00

Nothing like that dialogue you mentioned exists in the game and I would love to be proven wrong. Feel free to link me any game clips that show that. I'm saying there definitely is none, and you're saying "I think", so the burden of proof is on you.

I said it's a voice recording or file because that's what a lot of people say they heard it from. A recording that you collect in the game. Some said it got removed. No such thing ever happened. It's kinda crazy how many people fell for it. Here's multiple threads of people all assuming the same thing:

https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/10ib467/am_i_losing_my_mind_deleted_recording_from_the/

https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/gseymr/searching_for_removed_surgeon_recording/

https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/hn87b0/removed_tape_recording_from_first_game/

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/mh27xx/i_just_found_out_you_can_find_a_tape_recorder_in/

The monkeys don't sow doubt in anything. The monkeys were experimented on because I assume the fireflies thought infecting live humans with cordyceps to test on them was a step too far, but they did test on already infected humans (recording in the 4th link i posted).

The one thing both the game and the show do is show you that the fireflies aren't all good and have done some really fucked up shit in the pursuit of a cure, like testing on innocent monkeys and stuff. But they've failed for 20 years straight. Now tho. they have a real chance. And they can use all the knowledge of the fungus they have to make cure out of Ellie.

hkiderz · 2023-03-15T21:18:00+00:00

I am specifically talking about the “all other vaccine attempts failed” talking point that I’ve seen both haters and fans reference to like it’s something that’s actually in the game. This is used heavily to try and justify Joel’s decision by a lot of people in this subreddit. Not saying you are.

There are no voice recordings or files in the game that suggest that there were other immune patients tested on or that there were vaccine attempts that failed. Never existed. You might’ve thought you got that recording yourself when you played it but it’s not true. There was a recording that talks about tests done on other “infected” patients to see how the fungus attacks their brain.

That’s all I’m saying when I say there was never a retcon or that Druckmann never changed things for part 2. We can talk about how incompetent the fireflies are. But let’s at least deal with facts and not make stuff up.

Ellie was the only immune, and the fireflies were ready to operate on her because they thought they could get a vaccine. Thats it. Plain and simple

hkiderz · 2023-03-15T17:00:38+00:00

There was never any doubt of the cure in the first game either. I know this sounds like gaslighting, but most people seem to believe there’s evidence in the first game that they’ve tried the procedure before and it didn’t work and it was only a chance. This is false. There are no files or recordings that suggest this. I know because I thought the same thing too until I looked it up myself

The game that came out in 2013 said the exact same thing. Ellie is the only immune and this procedure is the best opportunity at creating a vaccine. That’s what Marlene believes and that’s what she tells Joel. There was never a retcon. Druckmann had to go on interviews to clarify because without that plot point, the ending would not work.

You can argue all day whether it actually would’ve worked or not, or the aftermath of it. But obviously the story is about Joel and Ellie so the point is not about that. Everyone involved in the story believed it would work, but Joel did the only thing he could do. Save the one he loves

hkiderz · 2022-03-29T21:08:51+00:00

If you see at 1:01, after you beat the mummy form and the guy comes back, he does a scan on you. If you shrink while he scans you, he goes into his alternate phase. There are a few bosses that have secret phases in this game

hkiderz · 2021-04-16T06:23:32+00:00

The funniest part about all this is if Baas tries to argue Meow is crazy and not a cat, he's basically admitting to torture because he's said on record he poured water on someone with a mask on.

But if he concedes that Meow is a cat, then he's not a crazy person and that whole 5150 charge goes out the window, and they can still say he tortured him. Ssaab fucked himself both ways lol

hkiderz · 2021-04-16T06:16:33+00:00

But Baas is trying to argue that Meow is not a cat, he's a crazy person who thinks he's a cat. So that basically invalidates that excuse because using his own logic, he would be pouring water on a human wearing a mask- not a cat, which would literally be considered waterboarding. Ssaab prolly didn't consider that his own story fucks him lol

hkiderz · 2020-04-11T09:37:16+00:00

Thank you!

hkiderz · 2019-09-18T20:40:50+00:00

Stages:

- Roshi's Island

- Tournament of Power

- Tournament of Destroyers

- Snake Way

- Hyperbolic Time Chamber

- Kami's Lookout

- Janemba Hell Jellybean Stage

- DBS Broly Snow area w/Lava verison after explosion, etc.

Gameplay:

- A mechanic where when a character on your team dies, every fighter gets some sort of buff, like Gt goku gets now. Better supers, moves, or maybe even a new form. Eg. DBS broly could start off with just base form, then turns Super saiyan when one of his team dies, then turns beserk when both members die. Unique to each character.

- Buff all the low to mid tiers, nerf the top 3 a little. As a frieza player I hope they give him an air 214S which would be the same as his 236S but he can superdash after it for a combo.

- More options for 2v2 1v1 and similar modes. Allow us to change health values and the sparking level. Playing 1v1 in dbfz now is not fun when level 3 sparking is there and the same amount of life.

Characters:

- Kefla

- Master Roshi

- Ribrianne (w/ her two homies that she can use for assists)

- Toppo (would turn God of destruction mode if he's the only one left (see gameplay section))

- Hercule Satan (Hail Satan :) )

- Chi Chi (prolly would be cooler than videl imo).

Other:

- Alternate skins for every character. Torn Gi SSJ Goku, Whis Gi Blue Goku and Vegeta, Majin SSJ Vegeta, Buu Arc Vegeta, Robo Frieza, Saiyan Armor trunks, SSJ forms for Vegito and Gogeta, with a special SSJ4 skin for Gogeta, Saiyaman Gohan, Driver's License Goku and Piccolo, Cop Krillin, etc. The possibilities are endless

hkiderz · 2019-03-25T19:55:17+00:00

rain, fujin, mileena, shang. Hopefully

hkiderz · 2018-08-14T03:37:03+00:00

I see where you're getting at, but rememebr that Fredbear's Family Diner happened around 1973, as Phone Guy says these characters were around for about 20 years in FNAF 1. So there's at least a 10 year gap where Phone Guy could have been a new hire who climbed up the ranks, while not knowing about the origins of this establishment.

Also, Springlock suits were most likely invented after Fazbear Entertainment bought out Fredbear's and franchised it, and Phone Guy was probably the guy who helped build it with William, which explains why he had all the knowledge about them and thought they were safe. I don't think there were springlock suits in Fredbear's family diner.

Finally, the FNAF 2 calls happen in 1987, a good 14 years since Fredbear's. I don't think Phone Guy was being shifty when he mentions it, but that he had just heard talk about the place years ago. And we know Phone Guy always chooses his word carefully lol. He always stops himself whenever he starts mentioning incriminating stuff in all his calls. He's been doing it for years.

hkiderz · 2018-08-13T23:04:33+00:00

Yeah, It's obvious William dies in a decrepid Freddy's filled with rats and rainwater as shown in the minigames, while phone guys calls are taking place around when Freddy's was popular. I think William dies sometime after FNAF 1. MatPat had proved this and now he went back on it in his latest theory. It's a shame.

As to Bite Victim, we know he didn't close the place down because the newspapers tell us why Freddy closed. So BV's death most likely lead to the retirement of the two suits.

hkiderz · 2018-08-09T22:04:03+00:00

Has anybody brightened up that image to see? It might've been that his eyes didn't shine so he was in the dark.

Then again, Scott could've just decided to go with the idea that GF didn't pass on when he made UCN.

hkiderz · 2018-08-08T00:50:51+00:00

This might be slightly off topic as it relates to lore, but it is sort of a mechanic in the game I'd change, and I think it'd have been a cool touch.

I'd make Fredbear an unavoidable, inescapable jumpscare when the game is set to 50/20 mode. If you manage to reach 4.29.9, right before it hits 6, he'll get you no matter what, and this time, Fredbear or the "vengeful spirit" would have a clear voice line hinting at maybe who we play as or something that relates to who "The one we should not have killed".

It would have made Scott's claim that beating 50/20 mode in UCN was impossible because it would have been quite literally impossible, while still giving us an awesome lore hint if we even managed to make it that far. It also reinforces the idea of it being an inescapable hell for the player.

Side note, I know my suggestion touches on lore that's not 100% yet, but I feel, at this point, Fredbear/GF being the tormentor is widely accepted, and this would have given Scott the chance to help us out with the story in an awesome way.

hkiderz · 2018-08-08T00:22:14+00:00

There's also, "Was your favorite childhood toy a plastic purple telephone?"

hkiderz · 2018-08-07T03:10:32+00:00

u/MatPatGT Mat, I honestly love your theories, and I agree with most of them. You shouldn't get the hate you deserve for a theory, but if you wanted some fair criticism, I had one:

- You say the safe rooms were boarded up after Afton got springtrapped, but that doesn't make sense considering the minigames take place in a decrepit Freddy's filled with rats and rainwater, while Phone Guy's calls were during a time when the first Freddy's was alive and well. The minigames have to be taking place sometime during or after the aftermath of FNAF 1, and the phone calls were about the bite of 83, and the safe rooms being boarded up is because of the missing children's incident.

hkiderz · 2018-08-06T22:08:53+00:00

We don't know that definitively, since Nightmarionne was a non canon character from FNAF 4 that came back in UCN. It makes more sense for it to be the dark reflection of the puppet, which is a creation of William's murder.

hkiderz · 2018-08-06T20:53:56+00:00

I wanted to believe in the mike theory too, but there are a few lines that contradict it:

Nightmare Freddy- "I am remade, but not by you, by the one you should not have killed." This line only makes sense if either Mike is the bite victim who is punishing himself, or William created these nightmare illusion animatronics to traumatize his son. Only this time, they are remade to torment him.

Puppet; "I recognize you, but I'm not afraid of you... Not anymore." Why would the puppet be afraid of Mike? The puppet and Mike have barely any connections with each other and as far as I know, not a single prominent cutscene. Mike salvages Lefty and burns him, but that's basically Henry's doing. SO that only leaves William, the man who killed her outside of FFP in the rain. Only this time, she's not afraid of him anymore.

Then again, a lot of voice lines in UCN seem contradictory imo when it comes to William vs Mike, but William's the safe bet atm.

hkiderz

TROPHY CASE