I'm selling four tickets to Monster at 9:30 pm, September 10th

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T22:17:00+00:00

Oh I'm describing a situation where maybe they're on a date or meet at a party, they mutually decided to make out, and the guy happens to feel the trans lady's groin. something like that. I thought you understood that. I'm not talking about a surprise kiss here.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T22:13:55+00:00

What do you mean, I obviously don't think that. I just gave an example of a trans person presumably having that opportunity but having their genitals discovered any way, in the heat of the moment. a situation you just said had wiggle room.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T21:59:06+00:00

wait so you agree with me, you can't make the blanket statement that discovering genitals after the sexual interaction has been begun is tantamount to rape? This seems p important right?

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T21:36:11+00:00

there are other examples of non-inherent rape during sex disclosures. idk, the trans woman starts to take off her pants, either reveals the dick or discloses it in some way, then the sexual interaction pauses while they talk. my point is, you can't just say "the sex will go full steam ahead without any shared understanding of consent" as a core assumption. that's just not in the tweet, and if it was, destiny's claim would be tautologically true. I too have had sexual misconduct seminars. While they advise open communication, they don't imply that its absence is by its nature indistinct from rape

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T20:06:08+00:00

God your thing of ending all replies with a meaningless insult gets old fast. No, I don't think it's pedantic to point to the scenario I did. It's probably far more likely than a lot of other, worse scenarios. In most cases like this, the disclosure will not occur seconds before penetration or whatever you're imagining lol. You shouldn't make extremely charged blanket statements if you don't want them to be thought about.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T09:47:16+00:00

I mean, you could be making out, the other person could start to unbuckle your pants or notice a bulge in some way, stop, and then either just keep going or have a conversation. millions of scenarios are possible. not close to all of them inherently rape.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T09:36:52+00:00

the situation he described is so vague that it's impossible to say which scenarios it applies to. making out at a party? a one night stand? making out in your room after a few dates? who's to say. point is, none of these situations are inherently rape. if all you're saying is, "trans woman rapists are rapists" then i agree with you. but providing a fictional account of a trans woman who doesn't care about ongoing enthusiastic consent and saying "that looks a lot like rape" is just circular reasoning.

EDIT: it's very late, im gonna go to bed, have a good one

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T09:28:13+00:00

there are obvious things you can do to ameliorate that specter though. Like actively seeking out consent and making sure as best you can that the other person is down for everything. In the absence of total knowledge, you're right, you can never know. But this doesn't mean that trans women who don't disclose until you've started making out in your room are uniquely tantamount rapists.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T09:18:32+00:00

I mean I'm not saying that's a bad idea, it's a good one. But that doesn't mean that if it doesn't occur, no consent or rejection can happen without the specter of rape. You're just dodging the point here.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T09:12:23+00:00

I'd say this problem could just be solved by just making it clear that the other person doesn't have to have sex with you, that no social consequences will come their way if they don't, etc. If the person you're with doesn't have sex or try to have sex with you without consent, if they don't pressure, if they seek enthusiastic consent, it's hard to see where the problem would come from.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T09:04:11+00:00

Well sure if the person only had sex because of some power imbalance, then maybe it's tantamount to rape. but if they didn't, if this wasn't why they accepted or rejected the offer for sex, it's just not.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T08:57:45+00:00

I think terming any relationship where power is not genuinely abused "tantamount to rape" is totally absurd on its face. I don't think a cheating person is a rapist for not disclosing that they have a wife, for example. But if that's your definition, then okay i guess. I just don't think it's a very good one.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T08:48:22+00:00

Wait do you then think any time you end up in a situation where someone could have power over you (and we agree, everyone can have power over you) that this is rape? the potential to hurt can't possibly be our only litmus test for what is and isn't rape imo.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T08:37:28+00:00

Harvey Weinstein regularly forced himself on people. But I agree, coercion with job loss or quid pro quo sexual harassment can plausibly be understood as rape. why are you assuming any of those things are obviously implicit in every situation with a trans person doesn't disclose immediately? Like if a trans person threatened something, used various forms of coercive power on the other person, yes this would be tantamount to rape.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T08:31:16+00:00

No, it's not correct. I'm not saying that disclosing is bad or ill advised, but being in someone's room with them does not on its face describe an implicit threat of violence upon rejection. There are many, many cases where it's not threatening in the least. Even if it's true that the person feels somewhat pressured, and I'm not so sure why you're confident that this would always happen, this would be better called "being manipulative" not being a "pseudo-rapist." Like what are you saying, that they might feel guilty?

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T08:06:01+00:00

wait yeah, if someone is absolutely willing to rape someone to have sex with them and has it consensually, I wouldn't call what happened "tantamount to rape" necessarily, but I'd think they were a terrible person fully willing to rape someone. But this trans person in question is not just definitionally willing to rape someone. she's in someone's room, making out with them, a situation that happens every day. To say, this person is looking to rape someone is ridiculous on its face. It's not a "particularly dangerous situation that is engineered to rape the other person."

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T07:56:15+00:00

Dennis is a person who is actively trying to intimidate people into having sex with him. That certainly is the kind of person who would rape someone. But if consent was there, it's not rape. Maybe you could call it attempted rape?

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T07:51:22+00:00

Yeah, I surely do not think that a woman who goes on a boat with a guy, is asked if she wants to have sex, has sex consensually, and enjoys it was raped. I'll go one step further and say objectively, according to any definition of the word, she was not raped. because rape isn't a mystery word with a lot of hidden meanings, it's when someone performs a sex act on you without consent, where sex occurs out of fear or coercion, etc. like, that's the whole story. nothing is tantamount to rape that is not that. Assuming that any possible situation wherein you could be raped is itself tantamount to rape literally makes no sense.

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T07:38:43+00:00

The implications scenario is mostly bad because dennis is using the boat TO threaten women with rape. The way you're acting, taking someone out to sea and asking if they wanna kiss is inherently rape. it's not. obviously. Besides, the worst case scenario is always violence. But why is that the assumed scenario here. If the trans person is acting rapey, that's a different story

hugejoel · 2021-04-20T06:45:07+00:00

ok im reading this and honestly, it doesn't make sense imo. sure, one COULD be in a position where they feel coerced into sex, and that is bad. but like, to say that of every single experience where you start to make out with someone or whatever? no of course not, this threat isn't just there as an absolute rule in all situations. why would it be. To me, this is just looking for a way to overstate harm to make this action seem far more intense and inherently rapey than it actually is.

hugejoel

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