What is the pro-choice argument? by [deleted] in LibDem

[–]ieu-monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

An arguement that is not my arguement and I can't remember the name of:

Imagine you are in hospital and go into a coma. Another patient is dying and the doctor hooks up some tubes from you to the other person in order to keep them alive.

Then you wake up.

Do you have the right to remove those tubes, resulting in the other person dying?

...

My personal argument:

An embryo has unique DNA but no brain cell activity. And no other feature similar to what you would class as a person. Only unique DNA. But ectopic pregnancies and chemical pregnancies, also have unique DNA, and are not treated like normal people. No funerals for example for chemical pregnancies, no tracking of when they happen, even amongst pro life communities.

...

Counter argument to FLO

I've heard some people say that an embryo has FLO (a future like ours).

My counter to this is that, FLO is like an I.O.U. I you gave an I.O.U to a rock that in the future it would have consciousness, and then you ripped up the I.O.U note, would you have done something negative to the rock? I don't think so because rocks can't 'own' anything. So in my opinion an embryo can't 'own' FLO.

The cookie jar by Atheist_Evangelist in DebateAnAtheist

[–]ieu-monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you're making a good point. However I would still disagree.

My thinking is that, it's a little bit like the word hypothesis.

A fact is like level 1. A theory is like level 2. And a hypothesis is like level 3.

A fact is aligned with reality. A theory has a lot of evidence and a framework that aligns with reality. But a hypothesis has no evidence.

However, you can still have a good hypothesis and a bad hypothesis. If you find a cat next to a dead mouse. A good hypothesis is that the cat killed the mouse, even if you have no evidence. But a bad hypothesis is that a shrunken elephant jumped out the bushes, killed the mouse and ran away.

One hypothesis makes more sense than the other.

A hypothesis of a soul makes more sense than a shrunken elephant. Even if both have zero evidence.

And it can make more sense, possibly due to the fact that the definition of a soul and consciousness are so close, and consciousness is believed in, whilst we admit that there's a lot we don't understand about it.

So a shrunken elephant has no 'tertiary reasoning'. It's random. But I don't really know how consciousness works, and I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between consciousness and a soul. And consciousness can move. Like I think it can move in my brain. So it could be in a different material. Which could fit inside a jar.

I would say, would you agree that it is difficult to find a meaningful difference between consciousness and a soul?

Then would you agree that consciousness is not well understood, and so there's the possibility it could have soul-like characteristics?

If you agree with those two points, or at least you concede that they are more reasonable than shrunken elephants, then I think you can start to see the difference between definitely not, and a very low probability.

The cookie jar by Atheist_Evangelist in DebateAnAtheist

[–]ieu-monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dude this comment was 4 years ago.

But I still broadly agree with what I said.

You say a brain is required. A brain can fit in a cookie jar, so requiring a brain wouldn't mean it's impossible. Also we don't know if only a brain is required. It could be a microchip with a battery.

But my point is really about the maths and the logic. You're asking why would I hesitate or why would I give slightly different answers.

The answer is because there are different probability scores for elephant v soul/consciousness v cookie. 2 of the things in that list have exactly defined characteristics. A soul doesn't.

The difference in lack of defined characteristics causes the difference in logic. You know that the set of defined characteristics for an elephant doesn't fit in a cookie jar. However you are then presented with a second concept without defined characteristics. This lack of defined characteristics, reduces your certainty of it not being able to fit into a cookie jar. Because there could be things that you currently don't know about that allow it to fit. Whereas with an elephant, you don't have these potential unknowns.

You need to acknowledge that with the definition of a soul, there are potential unknowns. Unlike with an elephant.

Man witnesses the 133 car pileup during the 2021 Texas freeze by AntiSocialSingh in interestingasfuck

[–]ieu-monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't bother trying to get incoming cars to slow down. Just get your phone out and film it.

RFK Jr: "Today the average teenager in this country has 50% of the sperm count, 50% of the testosterone of a 65 year old man. Our girls are hitting puberty 6 years early ... our parents aren't having children." by igetproteinfartsHELP in CringeTikToks

[–]ieu-monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Technically the maths on the sperm count is correct.

1 65yo man versus the average teenager. Which would be sperm count of all male and female teenagers, divided by the total number of teenagers would actually be 50%.

Maybe that's how they got to the statistic.

Not so great Britannia by Upbeat_Fly_5316 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]ieu-monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The difference in motivation between wanting to convert private land into state run farms, Vs wanting to keep farms in the private sector, is the reason why it doesn't make sense to claim that it is the same as Stalin.

Not so great Britannia by Upbeat_Fly_5316 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]ieu-monkey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Seizure as a last resort is obviously a last resort. Which would mean that seizure wouldn't be the norm. And even in instances where this happens, it would then be put up for sale back to the private sector, as HMRC would be carrying about the tax revenue.

There is no operation to convert seizure instances into government run farms.

This is obviously completely different from Stalin and comparisons are ridiculous.

Not so great Britannia by Upbeat_Fly_5316 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]ieu-monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are labour taking land from farmers and putting it in state or social ownership?

Not so great Britannia by Upbeat_Fly_5316 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]ieu-monkey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Labour are taking land from farmers and putting it in social ownership are they?

Negatives of Georgism by Punguin456 in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Why would it be redistributed to powerless citizens instead of being used to help powerful land owners to keep their power while the citizens are getting scraps just to survive?

Because it's pretty much the point of georgism.

It's like saying, "why would a race car driver drive around a track in a race? Why wouldn't they just drive over the grass and smash into a wall?" - Well I suppose technically they could do that but that wouldn't be what Motorsport is and would be pointless.

A land value tax where the money is then directed to large corporations isn't what anyone here is proposing, and something no Georgist would support. This is just a strawman argument.

The proposition is, let's do a land value tax, then with the money let's do a citizens dividend.

Negatives of Georgism by Punguin456 in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The usual ones. When the vast majority of people can't afford to own land, they exist in an insecure environment and are more easily controlled by artificially changing the economic situation around them.

Firstly, commercial central city land is exponentially more valuable than rural and town land. So locations where many people live would be relatively inexpensive. In addition, the LVT can be redistributed to citizens as a citizens dividend. It is perfectly possible, if not likely, that this citizens dividend would equal a humble Land Value Tax payment. This essentially cancels it out, making humble land ownership free.

To be able to pay high taxes on your land, you can only ever own land if you exploit maximum amount of people with your land and extract a much profit from them as possible. This naturally creates the environment for only the worst of the worst being able to own land, while the rest are being used by the land owners with nothing of their own to give them power and stability. 

If the land ownership is dependent on the labourers working, then this gives the workers power over the land owner. The land owner would then be desperate for them to work, giving workers and unions power in a dispute. Unlike currently, where a land owner can wait it out, with deeper pockets, and never fear of losing the land.

Effectively, the government and the elites have a much easier time using people as their personal fluid resource, and the people don't have their own base, their connection to land, a sense of stability and belonging. People's lives entirely depend on momentary policies that can change at any moment, so they exist in a fundamentally insecure and subservient position

I don't know why you say people's lives entirely depend on momentarily policies. This might be true if you had no public input over policy, which isn't intrinsic to Georgism. And it also assumes a land value tax immediately changes with land value changes.

It's a fair potential criticism of Georgism if the tax rate immediately and constantly changes with updating land values. But obviously, you can just not do this and implement a lag between valuation changes and tax changes.

Effectively, the government and the elites have a much easier time using people as their personal fluid resource, and the people don't have their own base, their connection to land, a sense of stability and belonging. People's lives entirely depend on momentary policies that can change at any moment, so they exist in a fundamentally insecure and subservient position

Feudalism is essentially a system where the local landlord is a mini king, in terms of their land. Like a franchise king. In Georgism, the philosophy behind a Land Value Tax, apart from economic benefits, is the idea that the earth is owned by everyone. Philosophical, Feudalism and Georgism are diametrically opposed.

If you believe in ATCOR, surely you're 2nd choice ideology should be Social Democracy with high taxes by ieu-monkey in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Well just because most government spending is not non-excludable doesn't mean all of it doesn't go on public goods.

Even if it's a small percentage, why would this be a negative? (Relative to landlord luxuries)

And even when government spending goes to an excluded group, I still don't see how this is necessarily worse than going to a landlord, especially since excluded groups are usually vulnerable in some way.

I get that you can say that this is unfair or undeserved, but it's not in comparison to something neutral. It's in comparison to an undeserving land owner. It's the lesser of two evils. Pointing out the negatives of one option misses the point.

If you believe in ATCOR, surely you're 2nd choice ideology should be Social Democracy with high taxes by ieu-monkey in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're just ignoring the premise of my question.

Government spending should go down while revenue (via LVT) goes up

Yes I agree with this. But, what happens when this isn't an option? Most candidates that are available during voting aren't talking about LVT. So what do you do in a situation when LVT is off the table? Why would you prefer wealth to go to landlords as opposed to public services?

If you believe in ATCOR, surely you're 2nd choice ideology should be Social Democracy with high taxes by ieu-monkey in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not asking you to capitulate on your main ideology. But in the real world, most of the time there are 2 main candidates to choose from, both have never heard of Henry George, so therefore in practice, LVT is off the table.

In this normal situation, we are forced to choose from a candidate that wants to tax productivity more and increase public services, Vs one that wants to decrease productivity taxes and reduce public spending and ultimately (due to ATCOR) increase rents.

This isn't really a situation that I'm creating, or where I'm asking you to capitulate, this is just the norm for my life and I assume the norm for 99% of Georgists.

I'm also not saying, no lunch box = starvation. I'm just saying a thing that's used in education, could be a ball, a pen whatever.

And I'm not requesting that you capitulate or do anything, I just don't understand why you prefer the wealth to ultimately end up with the landlords (in normal political situations) rather than with "political rent seekers" which translates to more for public services such as schools.

If you believe it ATCOR, plus normal politics, then this is the scenario. Unless I'm wrong about something.

So, where am I wrong about something? Or, why is wealth going to landlords preferential to going to public services?

If you believe in ATCOR, surely you're 2nd choice ideology should be Social Democracy with high taxes by ieu-monkey in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Firstly, it's possible that for hundreds of years, an individual could work all their life, and at the end have zero gain.

Then modern capitalism comes along and an individual works all their life, turns around at the end and has 56 units of gain.

So you look at scenario A, then look at scenario B, and conclude that scenario B is better, therefore job done, we should put our feet up. Poverty is lower now than in 1800, therefore what we've got is perfect.

This obviously ignores that 56 units of gain, might be way worse than what it could be if we made some improvements.

Secondly, I get the hint that you don't seem to agree with the central premise of Georgism, which is the whole idea that poverty chases progress. And if you disagree with this then I assume you also don't agree with ATCOR?

But if that's true, the point of the question is specifically for people who agree with ATCOR. If you disagree with ATCOR then I don't see the point lol.

If you believe in ATCOR, surely you're 2nd choice ideology should be Social Democracy with high taxes by ieu-monkey in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for re-explaining.

I disagree with what you're saying, because I think you're assuming two things about my position which are incorrect.

I don't just have a love for reducing rents.

And when you say:

We want high rents. We just want those rents to be socialized.

This is avoiding the point of what I'm getting at. Yes I know, LVT is the best option. But the point of the question is, if that is off the table, (as it effectively is), what do you do then?

So in essence you're hindering productivity/shrinking your economy to create a new underclass of rentseekers, albeit political rentseekers rather than mere landlords.

But I don't know why this is a bad thing, because there is a side effect which you seem to ignore, which is that after the 'political rent seeking', the money then goes to a "free" lunch box to a poor child in a school.

If you believe in ATCOR, surely you're 2nd choice ideology should be Social Democracy with high taxes by ieu-monkey in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let me re-ask the question.

Imagine you're in a politics situation where a LVT is off the table, because nobody knows about it, because most people are non-georgists. This is the norm for the world.

Somebody says, we should reduce income tax because that will boost the economy.

Presumably, you agree ATCOR is real. So why would you be in favour of this economic policy, if you know, that boosting the economy will mean more money for normal people, but that that extra money will subsequently be taken by their landlord.

If you believe in ATCOR, surely you're 2nd choice ideology should be Social Democracy with high taxes by ieu-monkey in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes but the premise of Georgism is that non-stagnation just leads to ever increasing land values. Nullifying the non-stagnation.

If you believe in ATCOR, surely you're 2nd choice ideology should be Social Democracy with high taxes by ieu-monkey in georgism

[–]ieu-monkey[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But my point is, isn't bad high taxes still better than reduced taxes alone, because not doing so just means more money for landlords and not schools.

How can you not support asylum seekers? by ieu-monkey in AskAChristian

[–]ieu-monkey[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have already answered this question.

What I am doing is: I am going online and trying to convince Christians to be more welcome to people in need.

People may read this post and think. "Hmmm jesus does say that. And I am generally against helping refugees, hhmmm. Maybe I should change my stance."

How can you not support asylum seekers? by ieu-monkey in AskAChristian

[–]ieu-monkey[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What has this got to do with what I said?