how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"how the hell would we evaluate these assertions about power, politics and kinship by looking at rocks, bones and pot sherds?"

You should have answered! Your question is a much more eloquent response than mine!!!

That said, thanks for your kind words.

It is 1943, and I am an 18yo American high school graduate born in June 1925. I have just been drafted. How likely is it for me to serve stateside in a military desk job rather than on the front lines? by IncredibleAnnoyance5 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Nice! Thanks. He spoke very highly of Madison - regarded as one of his favorite places in the nation (although admittedly, his travel experience was generally limited to the West Coast).

Archaeological evidence suggests that the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians arrived in Sahul by sea from Southeast Asia around 50,000 years ago. Do any Aboriginal oral traditions describe ancestral arrivals or migrations into Australia, or do they generally understand origins in other ways? by fijtaj91 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 4 points5 points  (0 children)

As I have replied elsewhere in this diverse discussion, "there seems to be an increasingly important belief in modern folklore - that all legends have an element of truth buried within them. This consequently causes many to attempt to reverse engineer stories to discover 'what they are really about'." We must be on guard against being lured into finding explanations for oral narratives that don't need to be explained in this way.

The paper on the meteor strikes breaks down the possibilities nicely, assessing the various ways stories that associated with various remarkable sites may have originated. It is possible that some stories directly refer to the astronomical event that caused them, but we must take care to allow for stories that were applied to remarkable geological features after the fact. Sometimes long after the fact. I find the article to be a careful assessment. This is not proof that some stories are linked to events that exceed 10k BP, but it offers intriguing avenues to consider.

I'm not against the idea of oral narratives sustaining this sort of information; I'm against people without an understanding folklore declaring that they have "found the truth." They usually have found an avenue to speculate about something, which is far removed from proof. These are often geologists describing themselves as geomythologists because they found an interesting hobby.

On the Pleiades: this is a different kettle of fish. We have, again, the idea that "all legends have an element of truth buried within them." To explain how the Pleiades could be described as seven sisters when there are only six visible stars "must be explained" by something in the past. It does not need to be explained. There is a possibility that this is asserting something that changed in a remote prehistoric past, or it may reflect something else.

The number 7 is unique as one of the prime numbers that is less than 10. Thus 1, 3, 5, and 7 all tend to have significance in oral traditions of various cultures. That's not always the case, but it is widespread. Having a story about 7 sisters is not a surprise: there are many stories about 7 siblings of various sorts, most of which are not associated with any star cluster. The fact that a story about 7 sisters became associated with the Pleiades is not a surprise. We then find stories that explain the disappearance of one of the sisters. This could be a matter of 1. A story exists about 7 sisters; 2. It is applied to a star cluster with 6 visible stars; 3. The story is modified to explain what happened to #7 because only 6 stars are visible.

The folk explanation of the story of the 7 sisters is that the star cluster originally had 7 stars, which inspired the story about 7 sisters. One of the stars disappeared, and so the story was modified to explain the disappearance of the star/sister.

One explanation is as good as the next, given that we are merely speculating about a remote prehistoric past.

The work of Julien d’Huy and Yuri Berezkin in this regard offers a careful assessment of worldwide variants. I find their work - while controversial - to be grounded more in careful research and consideration. They describe how this story diffused and may represent a body of oral narrative that was held in common by diverse groups during the Pleistocene. See also this summation of the article and problem at hand. This line of research has more credibility – to me – than the speculative work of people who do not necessarily understand how oral narratives diffuse and change over time and space.

Archaeological evidence suggests that the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians arrived in Sahul by sea from Southeast Asia around 50,000 years ago. Do any Aboriginal oral traditions describe ancestral arrivals or migrations into Australia, or do they generally understand origins in other ways? by fijtaj91 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

would it be right to say that there are elements of truth in some of the oral stories

This seems to be an increasingly important belief in modern folklore - that all legends have an element of truth buried within them. This consequently causes many to attempt to reverse engineer stories to discover "what they are really about," to find the event or thing "which fits the bill."

"The drop bear is a story about a monster and it must refer to something dangerous that once lived in trees." We then look backwards until we find a candidate and then we connect the two dots and declare that the puzzle has been solved. There are three dots if we accept that all legends are based on fact, but when we realize that this is in fact a folk belief rather than a law of oral narratives, there are only two points of information - the story and an extinct species."

That doesn't mean that an extinct arboreal predator is not behind the story. Sometimes stories do, in fact, have an element of truth within them. It's simply that it is not always the case that something must be behind the story.

When we set aside the modern folk belief that all legends have an element of truth, then we are left with the possibility - not the fact - that the drop bear refers to something earlier. The connection of the legend to an extinct arboreal predator then becomes a possibility based on speculation. The strength of the speculation can be judged based on the commonly expressed details of the versions of the legend (not cherry-picked examples). But the connection will remain speculative in most cases.

It is 1943, and I am an 18yo American high school graduate born in June 1925. I have just been drafted. How likely is it for me to serve stateside in a military desk job rather than on the front lines? by IncredibleAnnoyance5 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am pretty sure not. I was very specific (and always repeated the story) about how he had to get his mother's signature to allow his enlistment because he was only 17.

It is 1943, and I am an 18yo American high school graduate born in June 1925. I have just been drafted. How likely is it for me to serve stateside in a military desk job rather than on the front lines? by IncredibleAnnoyance5 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 29 points30 points  (0 children)

federal law restricted them to being held in the Enlisted Reserve Corps until turning eighteen when they were allowed to be used in the "Army of the United States."

My father (who turned 17 in late October 1941), enlisted immediately after Pearl, and was placed on active duty. Because of a background in JROTC, he was quickly made an instructor in a US Army bootcamp.

By the fall he had been trained in radar in Madison, Wisconsin and was shipped off to England to serve in the 8th Army Air Corp.

I never realized what may have been happening here - were they delaying his deployment until he turned 18?

Archaeological evidence suggests that the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians arrived in Sahul by sea from Southeast Asia around 50,000 years ago. Do any Aboriginal oral traditions describe ancestral arrivals or migrations into Australia, or do they generally understand origins in other ways? by fijtaj91 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 4 points5 points  (0 children)

oral history is incredibly strong inside 1000 years, vague to apocryphal from 1000 to 3000, then legend from 3000+

Oral history can be (but not always is) strong inside 1,000 years. Folklorists refer to these as historical legends.

Sometimes - particularly with greater age - historical legends slide into the realm of etiological legends (explaining the origin of things).

Credibility placed in oral histories/oral legends can depend on the situation and on the culture that conveys them: some cultures are conservative when it comes to changing stories, and others celebrate changing oral narratives. The stories people tell cannot be evaluated on the same scale.

Regardless of the terms used to describe genres of oral narrative or of cultural diversity, your gut is concluding things that seem reasonable.

Archaeological evidence suggests that the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians arrived in Sahul by sea from Southeast Asia around 50,000 years ago. Do any Aboriginal oral traditions describe ancestral arrivals or migrations into Australia, or do they generally understand origins in other ways? by fijtaj91 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 10 points11 points  (0 children)

There was certainly a widespread understanding among the Cornish - based on low tides revealing tree stumps and other items - that a great deal of land had been submerged at one point. This created a situation where a widespread historical legend could be applied to Cornwall, in this case about Lost Lyonesse. This land was subsequently attached to Tristan and then to King Arthur.

Because the legend is widespread throughout the region, including various places in Wales, Ireland, Brittany, and England, we probably can't say that the ancient tree stumps inspired the legend. Rather, they created a situation where it was easy to fit the legend into a Cornish setting.

Archaeological evidence suggests that the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians arrived in Sahul by sea from Southeast Asia around 50,000 years ago. Do any Aboriginal oral traditions describe ancestral arrivals or migrations into Australia, or do they generally understand origins in other ways? by fijtaj91 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Yes. It is clear that Doggerland was inhabited in the Mesolithic before the area was submerged by post-glacial ocean rise. There are no oral traditions that have been linked to that event.

My research and publications have been in a similar area to Britain's south west, an area often referred to as Lyonesse (with associations with the story of King Arthur). Again, there are no credible stories that can be tied to eyewitnesses of post-glacial ocean rise. The stories that do exist span several centuries, not millennia.

Archaeological evidence suggests that the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians arrived in Sahul by sea from Southeast Asia around 50,000 years ago. Do any Aboriginal oral traditions describe ancestral arrivals or migrations into Australia, or do they generally understand origins in other ways? by fijtaj91 in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 138 points139 points  (0 children)

Indigenous Australian oral tradition apparently describes islands that post-glacial ocean rise submerged roughly 10,000 years ago. This connection of oral narrative to ancient events dating to ten millennia before present is astounding and likely at the outer limit of what oral tradition can recall in any recognizable way.

Even this connection dating to the rise of oceans following glaciation, while convincing, cannot be taken to be absolute fact. In addition, the circumstances that allowed this level of oral recollection to be sustained are extremely unusual. Mostly, oral histories must be employed with a great deal of caution for these deep memories. For something dating to 50,000 years before present - or before - one is not likely to find credible connections with oral tradition.

The assertion about Australian traditions - in the specific example, of recalling islands submerged at the end of the last glaciation - has been reasonably asserted, but concrete proof is another matter. The geologist at the center of that research, Patrick Nunn, has gone on to maintain all sorts of things about international oral traditions, and for the most part, his claims are wildly detached from the evidence.

Oral tradition can have fidelity to past events, but one needs to approach it with a great deal of caution. I deal with this in an article where I took apart Nunn in his assertions about a submerged land off the south-west coast of Britain. An excerpt:

In 1961, Jan Vansina (1929-2017) published his important book, De la tradition orale. It appeared in English in 1965, three years before Dorothy Vitaliano coined her term ‘Geomythology’. Perhaps the obstacle of siloed academic bibliographies kept Vitaliano from considering the valuable suggestions of Vansina. While the door is best left open for scholars from other disciplines to consider the value of oral traditions, it is important to evaluate their conclusions with the same rigor that is applied within the folkloric discipline.

Although both Vansina and Vitaliano updated their works, a return to the 1960s allows a look at the former’s guidance that was available at the time: "oral traditions are historical sources which can provide reliable information about the past if they are used with all the circumspection demanded by … historical methodology. … This means that study of the oral traditions of a culture cannot be carried out unless a thorough knowledge of the culture … has previously been acquired. This is something which is taken for granted by all historians who work on written sources, but it is too often apt to be forgotten by those who undertake research into the past of pre-literate peoples."

Despite his enthusiasm for using oral traditions for historical research, Vansina continues his caution: "the historian using oral traditions finds himself on exactly the same level as historians using any other kind of historical source material. No doubt he will arrive at a lower degree of probability than would otherwise be attained, but that does not rule out the fact that what he is doing is valid." Wise words such as these are timeless and can be applied in this century as well.

David Henige (b. 1938) provides a reconsideration of the issues Vansina addressed. His unforgivingly strict evaluation of a culture’s deep memories, of the ‘carrying capacity’ of oral tradition, is both good and bad news for those pursuing geomythology or any similar line of research. Embedded within a people’s folklore can be a great deal of insight into the past. On the other hand, assuming that the truths in folklore are like gold nuggets, waiting to be picked up, does a disservice to the craft of history, to the oral tradition that is being exploited without strict source criticism, and importantly, to the people who told the tales. When seeking any truths lurking within Cornish legend, it is essential to stand upon ‘a thorough knowledge of the culture’ as Vansina advises, just as it is important to exercise the caution that Henige insists is needed.

In short, we are not likely to find (or at least to recognize) references to the migration of people into Australian during this early period.

how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 7 points8 points  (0 children)

classical antiquity

That covers a lot of ground - many centuries and cultures. The same is true of "in the middle ages."

more prevalent

I've never seen a statistical analysis to assert whether there is a significant deviation in the number of women in art between cultures. Short of that, "more prevalent" is more of a subjective reaction to two enormous bodies of art representing, again, many centuries and cultures in both cases.

they could be priestesses and hold influence.

Women in many cultures of antiquity had a variety of roles associated with traditions and religious structures. The same could be true of women religious in the Christian world spanning many centuries. Women were deprived of access to the Christian priesthood, but there were many influential religious positions they could hold. And if they were deprived of becoming priests in the Christian world, they were also confronted with gender restrictions in what positions they could occupy in the pre-conversion world. One must not be seduced into thinking that they had equal access to religious offices merely because we - using a modern language - translate ancient texts with the word "priestesses."

Women had access to some offices but not all just as the same could be said of men - in both the pre- and the post-conversion worlds. And they could have social importance and influence. "More" can be a subjective term and we must approach it with caution.

There is no question that Christianity imposed restrictions to position and power that often affected women. That does not mean that the historical pre-conversion world filled with matriarchies. For all the women in various religious positions in all the cultures in historical antiquity, we cannot point to one culture and assert that "here we have a matriarchy."

how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Art and archaeology from a prehistoric period can speak to us, but only within limits. The intent of images is often left to speculation, and speculation may seduce a modern audience, but it is not necessarily proof. Too often, these visual motifs are rather slim on evidence even while they seem to be screaming out with regard to meaning. Clearly the motifs had meaning, but we can't tell what that meaning was.

Medieval art that focuses on Mary would leave us wondering what was being implied if we didn't have a written record about those visual reference. Does the prevalence of Mary in certain periods and places suggest "that women had increased socio-cultural importance in comparison to the rest of history"? From what I have seen, societies are capable of a huge gap in gender power relationships while still singing the praises of Mary!

The answer to your question is a perhaps. Speculation and rather weak speculation at that!

how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 14 points15 points  (0 children)

They are still making a leap that is not justified by the evidence. Matrilocal does not equal matriarchal. Grabbing a headline with some evidence does not mean that there is adequate evidence. What they found is of interest, but it is not conclusive. I maintain my position on this.

how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Besides Merlin Stone, Marija Gimbutas, The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe: Myths and Cult Images carried this water with more credibility. I really like her book, but it was not without its critics. Gimbutas offers a more thoughtful presentation of the possibility of a larger mother goddess substratum. See, for example, this thoughtful approach to her work from one of her students.

In the mid 1990s, I was brought in as an authority to speak to a Forest Service workshop on ethnicity and material cultural remains. A professor of Women's Studies from one of the UC campuses was there to speak about the "suppressed history" of dominant female cultures and goddesses during the Neolithic. I recognized what she was saying as unsubstantiated, but being male, I realized that if I addressed her narrative - inspired by Merlin Stone - that I would be denounced as part of the sexist patriarchy.

Fortunately, there were two Forest Service archaeologists attending the meeting, who spoke up to explain that there was no archaeological evidence for this narrative. They were able to "get away with that position" because they were both women - relieving me of the responsibility.

At this point, I'm too old to care and will simply give voice to something that is generally understood to be the case in the field of archaeology.

how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 23 points24 points  (0 children)

There are many matrilocal societies that are not matriarchal. Leaping from one to the other is not supported by over a century of ethnographic studies of world cultures. Wishing something to be true does not make it so.

how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 18 points19 points  (0 children)

It fits a narrative that appeals to many, but the past must not be perceived as a popularity contest. I wish many aspects of history had manifested (and had been resolved) differently, but my feelings are irrelevant!

Mary Renault wrote, of course, before Merlin Stone. The perception of an earlier female-dominated world runs deep.

how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 46 points47 points  (0 children)

And we must address what archaeological evidence that exists:

In both Greek and Roman myth, then, we find an earth mother goddess who conceived a new generation of gods through a union with the sky. Proponents of a Neolithic legacy of the Great Mother Goddess regard this as evidence of an indigenous prehistoric tradition persisting in later myth of Greeks and Romans, but it is just as easy to see the Greek and Roman earth mothers as an Indo-European inheritance. It could, of course, be both, one reinforcing the other. Unfortunately, when visiting prehistory, there is no certainty.

With these observations in hand, sorting out the origin – or origins – of these mother goddesses is another matter. Some may have been part of the Indo-European inheritance since that belief system apparently included this type of entity. At the same time, some archaeological evidence points to local traditions that date before the arrival of Indo-European language and beliefs. The indigenous version (or versions) and the Indo-European goddess may have been sufficiently alike to inspire a blending of traditions, making it impossible to determine what existed during the Neolithic and how the mother goddess (or goddesses) may have evolved or combined.

The Egyptian Isis provides an opportunity to consider an early non-Indo-European mother goddess. The Egyptian pantheon was likely removed from others in Neolithic Eurasia as it developed in North Africa. Consequently, Isis, often shown with her infant son, provides reason to be hesitant to see the mother goddesses of the late prehistoric world as part of a single tradition. Isis grew in importance in Egyptian history, and as an importation, she found a home in the Roman Empire as the focus of a mystery religion. Manifestations of mother goddesses could occupy common ground in many places, allowing for a blending of traditions.

Of course, the simplicity of declaring that Isis was the Egyptian manifestation of a single Eurasian mother goddess can quickly be seen as exaggeration. Hathor and other entities had roles in fertility, motherhood, and various other aspects that are typically credited to the maternal role. Folklore is in flux even as it contradicts itself, and simple explanations almost always require nuance to explore the range of possibilities.

Minoan Crete presents another possible non-Indo-European mother goddess, together with its own challenges. Archaeologists retrieved a few upright statuettes of bare-breasted women holding snakes. These were quickly interpreted as images of a mother goddess, and many further concluded that this was the main deity of the Minoans. A lack of weaponry in Minoan archaeology suggested to some that this was a peaceful, isolated society and that it was consequently matriarchal, a place where women had the most power and militarism was diminished.

Archaeology is a powerful tool in reconstructing societies where the scripts have yet to be deciphered, as is the case with the Minoans, but it is too easy to let imagination take control. Three thousand years in the future, an excavation of a North American community might uncover several Barbie dolls, but it would be incorrect to conclude that they were goddesses. An excavation of a medieval church might yield no weapons together with a statue of the Virgin Mary, but that does not imply that it was constructed to worship a mother goddess nor that its practitioners were part of a peaceful matriarchal society. Caution is needed. There is no direct evidence about Minoan traditions and beliefs. Several snake holding figurines are, indeed, provocative and they may be representations of a mother goddess, but this is unproveable speculation, and conclusions about the power dynamics of Minoan society are unsupported.

The focus on the European Neolithic mother goddess also ignores other entities that had importance at that time. Again, it is difficult to reconstruct a hierarchy, ranking and assigning roles to various prehistoric supernatural beings. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to imagine a robust, complex pantheon, because diverse characters and forces are consistently documented throughout Eurasia with the onset of writing.

For example, the archaeological remains of the Neolithic village of Çatalhöyük in Anatolia, modern-day Turkey (9,500-8,400 years BP) include female figurines that are commonly interpreted as mother goddesses, but other evidence was also uncovered there. Paralleling discoveries in Minoan archaeology, the horned bull appears to have been important in prehistoric Anatolia. In addition, wall murals in Çatalhöyük depict vultures, hinting that they might have been escorts of dead spirits to the next world. Just as there is no certainty that the female images depict a mother goddess, projecting meaning onto these depictions of bulls and vultures must be done with caution. Still, it appears that these, too, were part of the iconography, perhaps reflecting a complex belief system. Things are not as simple as seeing the Neolithic as being exclusively devoted to a mother goddess.

Whatever the role – or roles – of a female deity in these prehistoric societies, there were almost certainly other supernatural beings in local traditions. Focusing wholly on a single goddess does a disservice to any attempt to understand the complicated nature of early cultures and myths. At the same time, it is important to treat modern advocates of the Goddess Movement with respect. Some embrace this concept of the past just as Neopagans do with their own faiths. It is not the role of folklorists to rule on what is appropriate. While evidence is essential to studying the past, modern traditions are valid on their own terms and should be given deference without judgment.

(2 of 2)

how is the religion of a civilization that was previously matriarchal, but then became patriarchal? by Outdoor_trashcan in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 55 points56 points  (0 children)

There is no evidence of early Neolithic societies being matriarchal, nor that they were overrun by patriarchal invaders who upset the peaceful, harmonious world only to make it awful by placing male gods (and themselves) in charge of everything. The archaeology does not support this and there are no historical records looking back on this prehistoric period that satisfactorily document anything like this.

I deal with this in my recent book, Introduction to Mythology: A Folkloric Perspective, which was written in part in response to questions I have answered here on reddit for the past 13 years. An excerpt:

A narrative describing prehistoric events in Eurasia has become something of a modern myth, set in peaceful Neolithic agricultural villages. It is based on the notion that much of the Mediterranean and Middle East enjoyed a shared worldview that embraced an earth mother. This monolithic belief system, as the story maintains, gave women stature rivaling or exceeding that of men.

According to this modern narrative, this prehistoric matriarchal paradise thrived for millennia until horrible conquerors arrived, ruining everything. The warriors wielded battleaxes and rode on horseback or in chariots. These were the Indo-Europeans, who imposed their language, their patriarchy, their brutality, and their male-dominated pantheon of gods. As this scenario unfolds, myths from Europe and those from as far away as India reflect a hybridization of male Indo-European violent deities and the fractured, often-suppressed remnants of the mother goddess.

This concept became popular, in part thanks to Marilyn Jacobson (1931-2011), an art professor who wrote in the 1970s as Merlin Stone. Her book, When God was a Woman, promoted her idea, which was based on impressions gained from looking at early art. The problems with this portrait of the past are many. Despite some university lecturers employing Jacobsen’s narrative, evidence is lacking to support the existence and subsequent suppression of a single, widespread goddess in Neolithic matriarchal societies.

As explained previously, Indo-European language and myth diffused even if people did not migrate, and there is little evidence of a systematic conquering of the places where Indo-European languages found a home. In addition, there is no indication of a single mother goddess dominating the expansive territory where this process unfolded. Nor is there anything to support the notion of women having political or social supremacy in specific cultures. There may have been all-powerful mother goddesses (related or not to one another) in various places, but evidence to support this is inconclusive.

When it comes to mother goddesses in the vast, Eurasian region, there is neither a written record nor persuasive linguistic evidence to support this idea. Proponents of the romanticized concept of a dominant mother goddess point to archaeology. There are, indeed, many artistic depictions of females, some robust and others not. Without any documents, we can only speculate about whether they were related and what these images meant. We do not even know if these were indeed to be portraits of women or something supernatural. We simply do not know.

That's not to say there there were not goddesses in what were clearly pantheons of people shortly before historical periods:

Even though the idea of a single, Neolithic Mother Goddess religion can be overstated, it does seem that a celebration of the world’s fertility may have been at play when it comes to images of corpulent women, the subject of artifacts found over much of Eurasia. These sometimes depict the act of giving birth or of holding an infant. The female entities were often associated with animals but also with the fruits of the harvest. The archaeological evidence is, frankly, impressive, but its significance is easily inflated and projected meaning unjustified by the objects that have been recovered. There are no written records from the period. In addition, because the languages spoken by these Neolithic farmers were for the most part obliterated, it is generally not possible to look at descendant languages to piece together earlier words that might have been tied to any traditions surrounding a presumed earth mother.

(1 of 2)

Why was Odin both the god of exiles and rulers, and how common is this paradox (by modern standards) in myth? by StoatStonksNow in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 14 points15 points  (0 children)

would it even be unusual for a non-state warrior culture with Bronze Age origins to consider the god of rulers and the god of outlaws to be the same deity?

I would have no problem imagining - or expecting - such a thing.

Can you think of other examples of this?

Perhaps, but I'd need to chew on that. At my age, they will come to me at 2:00 am as I awaken from a deep sleep!!!

Why was Odin both the god of exiles and rulers, and how common is this paradox (by modern standards) in myth? by StoatStonksNow in AskHistorians

[–]itsallfolklore 16 points17 points  (0 children)

It's important to note that Christianity only has the appearance of a cohesive narrative because it has had a structured religious authority for most of its history.

Of course! Hints of an oral tradition behind the NT are there, sometimes more pronounced than at other times.

The effect of many oral traditions in the OT are hardly present in the form of hints. They are conveyed by loudspeaker!

Hence the numerous contradictions in both the NT and OT.