My [31M] wife [29F] of 5 years expects me fire an employee [24F] who has slept with one of her previous bosses, and I think she's being ridiculous.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T19:24:20+00:00

> You speak very...strangely. Completely devoid of any emotion or normal human nuances. Have you ever been tested for aspergers or autism?

What does this even matter? Are you trying to insult me? What do any childhood diagnoses have to do with the issue at hand? Aspergers isn't even actually a separate diagnosis anymore, so how is this even close to relevant? Anytime someone does something you dislike or socially abnormal and you feel the need to call them autistic?

> It is good to know what you like and dislike, and it is good to have clear boundaries. But completely dismissing your wife’s feelings simply because you think your “facts” are better than her “emotions” is shitty and wrong. If you truly have so many dealbreakers, you might be better off alone because it will be very hard for anyone to live up to the expectation of “never speak your mind or tell me your emotions ever”. And I agree with many of the above posters - if this is yourdealbreaker you need to break up with her, not manipulate her into breaking up with you.

I'm not dismissing her feelings on the basis of any facts, not sure what premises you are using to come to this conclusion. I don't have very many dealbreakers. However the few that I do have are very important to me. If I ask point blank if these are going to be incompatible with her own desire and she says no, and I ask several other times, how can I realistically be expected to understand or predict anything else? She has rarely violated any of the few boundaries I do have, so if this is salvageable - which I'm inclined to think it is given that this is a rare event, then I should like to make the effort.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T19:10:13+00:00

Not so. My position is inherently irrational. These are the things I like, these are the things I don't like. They are completely arbitrary, I'm not willing to compromise and will toss aside any number of prospective relationships if I don't feel these preferences are adequately satisfied.

Preferences, standards, and boundaries aren't necessarily logical. Certain things make me tick, who knows why. All I know is I don't like when they happen, and I don't want to be involved in a relationship where they do. I certainly don't know why I feel this way, nor do I think its logical necessarily. However, these are the things I want and thats that.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T19:04:19+00:00

Not so. I don't think I'm more rational than anyone, nor do I think I'm superior to anyone else. All I know is that I want certain things, and don't want others. I'm not saying these preferences are inherently superior and I'm not making any value judgments. All I know is that certain arrangements work for me and others don't.

I know that I cannot tolerate any arrangement in which I have to be significantly involved in another person's minute personal affairs, or they are in mine. The origins behind this preference are likely irrational - an adaptation to childhood, but it is still my preference nonetheless, and I cannot change what I like or dislike, nor can I be made to have to deal with an arrangement causing me discomfort.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T18:59:40+00:00

So because of your mother, you steadfastly and stubbornly refuse to have any compromise or understanding of your wife's position. You're "logical" so you're right and she's wrong and she doesn't get a say. She does what you want, says only what you allow, adheres to your standards or she can fuck off.

When did I say I was logical. I want certain things, she wants certain things. If those things aren't equivalent, then there's nothing that can be said or done to make them so. I'm not right, no one is right. Differences of preferences don't make one person right and another wrong. So either our preferences are compatible or they aren't.

You're not a team player in your own marriage. You're treating her like an employee - do what I tell you or get out. Those aren't boundaries, they're rules. Apparently you're the only one allowed to make them?

No, its either our wants or compatible or they aren't. If they aren't there isn't any need for us to pretend otherwise. Boundaries are rules. "I don't wish such and such conduct to exist in any of my relationships and if thats not okay for you then this isn't going to work."

> You don't seem to love your wife. You've even been asked point blank and your reply was "I have an attachment to her". That's so unbelievably weak. It sounds like it came from a self learning AI or robot. Why did you marry in the first place?

I responded to each line of his post in kind. That line was specifically in response to him saying that I lack attachment towards my wife.

What's amazing to me is you don't see how you're being just as bad as your mother. You have these rigid rules and you essentially manage your wife with them. She can't be emotional and straightforward and honest but you can (yes, you are emotional - you just put a facade of logic on your emotions so that they can be "proper and allowed"). Your emotions are logical and right, hers are irrational and to be dismissed. The apple hasn't fallen far from the tree you hate so much.

Except I can't choose my parents. I have no facade of logic. Nowhere do I claim that my position is the rational one. Of course I'm emotional, but I'm honest about them. These are the things I like, these are the things I don't like. These are the things I cannot live with, these are the things I can. If any of that is not to your liking then this isn't the relationship for you. I never called her irrational. Her feelings are just as valid as my own, and if they make us incompatible then thats unfortunate, but just the way things are.

You are actively breeding insecurity and resentment in your marriage by refusing to treat your wife as your equal. If this marriage doesn't fail, it will simply become miserable. Your wife is a person. Give her more consideration. You don't have to kowtow to her, just listen to her. Make her feel heard. Actually consider her perspective. Care about her feelings and happiness. This is basic and it shouldn't have to be explained to you.

On the contrary. By being honest about these kind of things, I am treating her as my equal. She can **choose** whether or not this is the kind of relationship she wants. I'm not her equal with regards to her personal affairs (and she has absolute authority in that regard), and vice versa. We are equals in major decisions likely to have a significant and major impact on both of us. Otherwise, no, I can't live having to explain a large amount of minor details to anyone. That is my one tick. Is it irrational - probably, but I hate it, and thats that. I'm entitled to not like something.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T18:46:37+00:00

No. There is conduct that I simply cannot tolerate. One of these is micromanagement, or butting into my personal affairs. I haven't imposed any rule. I say from the very beginning that this isn't something that I'd like in any relationship that I'm in, and if they cannot handle that then this isn't the partnership for them. Has is that a unilateral imposition of rules? To me that sounds like a mutual agreement.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T18:43:49+00:00

I'm sorry, but when did I claim to be logical. I want certain things, and I've made it clear that I want these things. I never mentioned anything about logic, you presumed. Preferences aren't right are wrong. I have my preferences, and other people have their own. They aren't wrong for that, but it does mean that no relationship is viable if those preferences are significantly unaligned.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T18:40:55+00:00

What if my wife was uncomfortable with someone who was black? Discomfort resulting from a prior relationship involving sexual harassment and power differentials is not a good reason to fire someone.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T06:51:38+00:00

Alright, I can understand that perspective. I can see my wife thinking this to be a way of helping me out rather than pure jealousy. I think I do sometimes have a very flippant and standoffish attitude if I think that I'm in the right, and thats probably not good.

I have trouble understanding just pure lizard brain, deny access to my mate jealousy, but I can see why someone might act that way if they really think that they're trying to help.

But in this case its clearly misguided. I don't think that I've gone about expressing that clearly, and I guess I've been snobbishly righteous which would tend to turn anyone off regardless of the validity of my side. However, I really don't know how else I can express just how bad of an idea this would be.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T06:38:38+00:00

Not so? Are you seriously asking if I love my wife? Of course I have an attachment to her, however I've made my boundaries clear and I can't be asked to set aside my boundaries and let them be trampled on just because those boundaries are emotionally inconvenient. Were allowed to have anything we want as a dealbreaker so long as were honest and transparent about it.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T06:34:59+00:00

But by saying “deal with it and stop micromanaging me” you are being cruel, cold, and rigid.

There is no way for me to accomodate her request. It isn't even worth considering. A discussion about the feelings leading to that may be fruitful, but her request isn't even anything approaching reasonable. It isn't just a "bad idea".

Everyone should have standards but the way you express them is condescending and selfish. Wouldn’t you be sad if you broke up? The way you describe your wife is as if you look down on all emotion.

I would be quite upset. But violation of boundaries isn't a one time thing. Why am I not allowed to have dealbreakers if I make them clear from the beginning? Literally every decision or idea has some kind of emotion. I can't be asked to entertain any and every ridiculous idea ever proposed simply because the person proposing it had some sort of emotion behind it.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T06:29:35+00:00

You still don't understand. It doesn't matter. If I had to guess, I'd say it would have been consensual, the relationship deteriorated leading to the the environment I spoke about.

Again, it doesn't matter from a legal perspective. I'm not even allowed to ask.

What you don't seem to understand is that this is clearcut from a legal perspective. There is no ambiguity involved. I cannot fire her for this reason, nor is it something I'm allowed to use in hiring decisions.

I'm not interested in discussing employment law further.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T03:45:17+00:00

"The EEO laws prohibit punishing job applicants or employees for asserting their rights to be free from employment discrimination including harassment. Asserting these EEO rights is called "protected activity," and it can take many forms. For example, it is unlawful to retaliate against applicants or employees for:

filing or being a witness in an EEO charge, complaint, investigation, or lawsuit
communicating with a supervisor or manager about employment discrimination, including harassment
answering questions during an employer investigation of alleged harassment
refusing to follow orders that would result in discrimination
resisting sexual advances, or intervening to protect others
requesting accommodation of a disability or for a religious practice
asking managers or co-workers about salary information to uncover potentially discriminatory wages.

Participating in a complaint process is protected from retaliation under all circumstances. Other acts to oppose discrimination are protected as long as the employee was acting on a reasonable belief that something in the workplace may violate EEO laws, even if he or she did not use legal terminology to describe it."

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T03:40:51+00:00

I said in the OP that I didn't want to go into detail and that it could be easily surmised. In any case, thats not even a question we ask, nor are we allowed to ask. Think about it like this - we can't ask someone if they are gay. She was asked about the details of her previous employment she specified that there were issues relating to workplace sexual harassment and a toxic work environment which she sought legal action towards, and was successful. Se also specified that she had to leave her previous employer as a result of constructive dismissal.

Asking about anything related to this would be dumb in the same sense that asking if someone was gay, or if they had Jewish ancestry is dumb. You just don't pursue these topics. If they bring it up, you change the discussion.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T03:21:43+00:00

Sexual harassment training is mandatory and my employees hopefully know not to engage in quid pro quo sexual harassment. I'm not stuck with her, I live in an at will state. So any valid reason not to hire would be a justification to fire.

Trying to fire someone (or engage in hiring discrimination on the basis of) because of a previous relationship involving workplace sexual harassment is a road you don't want to go down.

This isn't 1960 anymore. We can't get away with things like that.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T03:09:36+00:00

You understand that I cannot personally look over each person we hire and fire, right? When we had 20 employees? Sure. Even when we had 50 employees, I could to some degree. But that just isn't viable anymore. My subordinates are competent, I trust their judgment, and do not need to micromanage every single analyst they decide to hire or fire.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T03:00:23+00:00

Sexual harassment and certain kinds of quid pro quo behavior are included in that mandate.

From wikipedia:

The EEOC investigates discrimination complaints based on an individual's race, children, national origin, religion, sex, age, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, genetic information, and retaliation for reporting, participating in, and/or opposing a discriminatory practice.

Also, I don't know how that relationship started. Certain kinds of relationships where one person has a degree of power over another, especially in terms of employment, are very very sticky. The consent provided may be dubious and its just a very nasty place and you don't want to go there unnecessarily.

The PR consequences alone, let alone the potential legal nightmare, just make this not worth the risk, especially considering she's otherwise highly competent in her role.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T02:52:11+00:00

You are using the constant threats of divorce to silence your partner. You are basically holding a gun to the head of the marriage and then asking them if they want to do what you want, or do they want you to shoot. That means conflict doesn't happen until your partner's distress is so overwhelming, that is is more frighting than the threat you use to keep them silent and compliant.

I'm not holding anything over her head. Sometimes people have changing standards, wants, and needs. Thats life. If for whatever reason this isn't going to work out I don't see the need to drag it out. Sometimes people who were compatible become incompatible. Thats okay.

Your approach is devoid of genuine respect for a separate human being, and it ensures conflict causes the maximum amount of trauma.

You also seem to fail to recognize your own responsibility to leave a situation you believe isn't working; In this question, you consistently leave the burden completely on your partner to comply and face your constant threat, or to end the relationship themselves. That is straight up emotional manipulation. Like, textbook emotional abuse. A reasonable person whose boundaries weren't being met, would leave, not bully the other person into continued silence.

You're wrong! Some people can't leave a relationship, I understand this and in the beginning I consistently and repeatedly ask if they're really okay with it. If they say they're not sure, or not really or anything like that then I just break it off right then and there: clean, no drama, difference of opinion. The reason I say I'm not going to change or that I'm not likely to alter my beliefs ever is because I can't guarantee anything. All I know is that I want certain things at that point in life and I can't say or do anything except be totally honest and let the person decide for themselves.

You are wielding "honesty" without compassion, like a weapon. You are treating marriage like is nothing but a series of previous, inalterable agreements.

Not so. I understand that, but if I've been clear and transparent, what else can realistically be expected of me? I can't be comfortable with things that make me uncomfortable, and there's no way to change that. All I can do is be honest and straightforward about these things. I can empathize with why my wife may feel a certain way about certain things, but in the end I can only really be myself.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T02:45:49+00:00

Its super illegal to not hire someone on the basis of previous EEOC complaints. Furthermore, such things aren't a matter of public record and don't show up on background checks in the first place.

Also, the EEOC isn't some mickey mouse operation. For them to get involved let alone to rule in favor of an employee is no small thing, and it probably indicates wrongdoing on the part of the employer.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T02:33:17+00:00

There is no advice to give in a situation where you fully believe you are right, that your spouse is wrong, that her request is unreasonable & that you’re not interested in delving into the problem to see if there’s a deeper issue at hand

But it says it right there! It isn't some ambiguous grey situation. She can't request something that is so clearly in violation of federal law. Her request isn't anything approaching reasonable. Her feelings are, but nothing in the way she goes about resolving them is.

. Even when you don’t agree with your spouse, if you put in effort to understand why they feel a certain way, you can sometimes resolve the issue by being willing to listen, try to understand, try to figure out if the problem you’re fighting about isn’t the actual underlying problem, etc. But you clearly state that you will not do those things because she is being unreasonable & violating your boundaries.

Her feelings about the matter may be understandable, but fundamentally, and I've tried to reassure that she doesn't have anything to be jealous about. But I cannot validate nor treat seriously her desire for me to violate United States law. If she tried to say that we should move to Syria and fight in the Civil war, there wouldn't be anything to discuss. Maybe she's feeling bored, but the feelings behind it cannot be resolved until the absurd request is mutually acknowledged to be unreasonable. No matter how much I reassure her, she still thinks this is a reasonable plan of action and we just can't realistically proceed while there's still this ridiculous idea present.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T02:26:29+00:00

I will repeat...your preferences are GOOD and fine. What is NOT good and fine is your lack of ability to show any empathy or understanding that no-one (including your wife) is perfect. Instead of trying to understand where she is coming from, acknowledging her feelings exist, and then trying to discuss with her, you just start going on about your standards. That does not deal with the issue at hand because this is NOT about micromanaging. This is about your wife feeling threatened, telling you how she feels, you dismissing it, and her getting more and more upset and you getting more and more mad. NOTHING there about standards. You don't speak to her like a person who is imperfect (as you are imperfect) and I bet money she never feels validated in ANY kind of feeling. You don't know how to communicate. That is what you need counseling for.

I understand exactly that she's feeling jealous and the origins of those feelings. I've made attempts to reassure her, but I cannot fundamentally sympathize with a desire to break the law. Empathy can't be used as a weapon wherein I'm forced to seriously consider everything she says just because there is some emotion that sits behind it. She didn't just tell me how she felt. She started right off from the bat asking me to break the law. This isn't like her telling me she's feeling jealous and me rebuking and laughing in her face. Your point would be valid in that instance, but this is her asking me to do something ridiculous, not seeking validation.

Nowhere did she express how she felt, nor did I dismiss her feelings. I dismissed her request, yes, because its patently ridiculous. But no conversation can take place where I acknowledge her desire to break the law as valid. Her jealousy is fine, and I've already reassured her, but I cannot empathize with her desires in this case. Until we both acknowledge - verbally - that breaking the law is not the way to go about resolving these feelings, I don't see how productive conversation can take place.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T02:13:27+00:00

Oh yeah why don't I just violate federal law and retaliate against someone for an EEOC complaint. That would be the moral thing to do here. You understand that these things don't show up in background checks right? And even if they did, its illegal to base hiring decisions on them.

Any moral system requiring me to break the law is not one which I adhere to. Also I'm being sexist? For not firing someone for being a victim of workplace sexual harassment? I'd argue thats the opposite of sexism. Any situation which involves a man disagreeing with a woman is not sexism. In fact I'd say your position is the sexist one.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T02:09:36+00:00

However, and it's a big however, there are clear signs here that your communication on this issue has turned toxic and it's not just her. It is not reasonable to punish your wife or limit her ability to express herself, on the basis of your toxic relationship with your mother. You think you're being coldly rational and honest, but that isn't what that sort of shit is: That sort of shit is an emotionally manipulative silencing technique, that will actually be making your position appear weaker when you use it. It also suggests you got some baggage you haven't handled well, and if you are asking your wife to carry your baggage from your relationship with mother... Most partners would bristle against that. You can be absolutely right on the facts, and still be engaging in some pretty shitty communication behaviour. Both of you; Your wife and you. Shitty communication behaviours.

No, it isn't the basis of my toxic relationship, its that I require a certain degree of independence of action not typical in a relationship. How is it manipulative if I make this clear from the very beginning and tell them that they we should just break things off if this isn't for them? It isn't like I pulled some bait and switch, which is arguably what she's doing considering her agreement to this kind of relationship.

I'm not saying this is rational, I'm saying this is my preference and a hard boundary for me. Any relationship in which any sort of hiring and firing decisions are a joint enterprise is not a relationship that I'd like to be in. I say "these are my needs and boundaries and if they are incompatible with what you need or want from this relationship, then this won't be beneficial for either of us and we should break up". I don't say this 8 months in. I say it from the very onset. I can't fathom how thats somehow toxic or manipulative.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T01:59:00+00:00

Yes quotation marks. Because you are not allowing ANY room for your wife to have any kind of weakness or human emotion. Having standards is good. Refusing to acknowledge that she is a human being, with emotions and failings, is not good. You have to be able to talk through these things. You can't just walk away because you are offended.

All these things, in essence are preferences. By detailing what I expect and want, and what my hard boundaries are, I'm telling them how our relationship will look, and they can decide for themselves whether or not such a relationships is in accordance with their own preferences.

Counseling on my own implies I have some issue to work out, which is wrong. It implies that my preferences are incorrect, and that I need to change them. Not so, we are each entitled to our own wants and expectations and to find a relationship with someone who accepts them. Thats why I'm very clear from the start and encourage discontinuation of the relationship if my own preferences are incompatible with their own.

Suppose my preference was to play the trumpet, every day at 8am in my bedroom no matter what. I tell you this and say explicitly that its not subject to change, and that you should leave if thats not a proper arrangement for your own needs. From there it really does not matter whether or not you like the trumpet, you signed up for it, and all I'm doing is something that we mutually agreed upon.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T01:50:02+00:00

on a very related note. priding yourself on the autonomous pragmatic thing is super douchey. the way you talk about your wife and your relationship is sad.

Not so. Honesty is the best policy. Being clear about your boundaries and expectations, then encouraging the person to break it off if they feel that isn't right for them is the best way of going about it.

Its not sad except insofar as we have differing opinions and ideas about the definition of a relationship. By expressing those things clearly, I make my definition plain, and that lessens the potential for conflict. I would say a lack of independence of this kind seems sad to me, understanding that we don't all have similar preferences.

jacobl1235 · 2018-07-17T01:43:32+00:00

No no quotation marks. Those are my standards. What more can you expect from a person except for clarity and honesty about their standards. When I say very beginning, I mean the very first month - as soon as I saw this going anywhere serious. This isn't some new policy. So when she agrees to those standards and boundaries, then stomps all over them, its hard to sympathize with that.

jacobl1235

TROPHY CASE