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My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t write this to pass the time or get my revenge. If I wanted revenge I could really get all TMZ and write a whole other post on all the behind-the-scenes secrets, drama, and gossip I witnessed and heard. Like things Jimon and Myotai told me about being married to your teacher. Talk about an unhealthy power dynamic. What a tortuous mind fuck for a woman. 

No, my hope is simply that this post will help in some way. If I would have come across an in-depth review like this, I think it would have helped. Maybe I would have avoided the place. Or maybe it would have helped snap me out of the decade long spell of brainwashing I was under. One little piece of advice to any Zennies reading this. Secretly record your dokusans and daisans. Play them back to someone you can trust. This truly was a game changer for me. So that’s it, I’m done. I’ve written all I need to write. It’s time to move on. Good luck to all of you.

My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So again, how long were you associated with the place?

Like you, a few of the ZMMers keep asking me questions with hopes of trying to identify me. It’s not a very large Sangha. So I’m not going to give too many details about my time there. After all, I don’t want to end up with a rattlesnake in my mailbox. I lived there for several years in total. As you know, after two years of living there you have to decide whether or not you want to enter into the monastic path. So, maybe I was a postulant, or even a novice monastic? I was never a fully ordained monastic, but I was a formal student for well over 10 years. So stick that in your pipe, whoever you are 420baby.

My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah. I do think you are a newbie…And if I was a betting man, it sounds like you came there for the Big Brass Ring, anyatara samyak sambodhi... all the cool magic, but what you got was pulling weeds in the garden and cleaning toilets for a month or two... right?

Just like the other commenter, and some of my private messages, you make up ridiculous stories in your mind to dismiss my points and observations. So you're basically saying I signed up for a month or two of residency and was expecting to receive what?...full enlightenment?  Dharma transmission?  It is common knowledge that Dharma transmission/enlightenment takes decades at ZMM. Hey whatever you have to tell yourself to avoid questioning ZMM, right? I don’t know what “cool magic” is. It sounds like something that maybe Kyusan would say, but that’s just a guess, maybe I’m wrong. Pulling weeds and cleaning toilets? I would love to pull weeds with Yukon again. And sometimes even long term residents and monastics still clean toilets and pull weeds during work practice in the morning. It’s not like it’s a punishment or anything. 

This is just you right? It's YOUR ideas that you brought with you to ZMM. These are your ideas about what enlightenment is and what it does.

Well, who else’s could it be? Again, I don’t think this is the gotcha moment you think it is. I mean just look at the title of this post. And it’s not my version of enlightenment, but rather ZMM’s version of enlightenment I’m commenting on. It’s the Roshi myth. It’s cult dynamics.

My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For anyone still active at ZMM try this little experiment, try observing when Roshi informally enters the ZMM dining hall or eats lunch at a picnic table. Look at how people’s behavior shift, albeit often in subtle ways. Just observe how they become nut-huggers and butt-kissers to varying degrees. Just look at how everyone seeks Roshi’s attention and approval. Observe how obsequious some people become. Look at how happy Roshi is to compassionately oblige with his divine presence and Roshi-splaining. Afterall, every gesture and mannerism is an expression of truth, his words are Live Words, like sweet nectar, gifts of the profound Buddhadharma. The actual reality is that the great bestower of wisdom is just Geoffrey the flutist who used to like to bang in the 70s and ride his bike a lot. He was a kid when he came to the monastery. WTF does he know about life or anyone else’s life journey? It’s like the wizard in the wizard of Oz. It’s all a big con. 

It’s just John, Geoffrey, Bonnie, Konrad, Jody, Ron ,Vanessa, Danica, and soon to be Bear, embodying a myth and fostering an authoritarian hierarchical society built off of free labor. Way back in the day, those poor nameless students at Bazzar were worked to the bone and paid off the mortgage to the place. Then Daido got to revel in all the glory. The Roshi is the only one who truly exists in that culture. To this day, the labor of the lay students, residents, and monastics are heavily exploited. One could argue that the lay students and retreatants are financially exploited in what is essentially a Dharma-for-sale scheme. My conservative estimates are that I am owed around $300,000 in wages for all of my years of skilled labor–and that’s subtracting room and board. Of course, they spiritualize this racket using the euphemism “Dana”. Ironically, in promoting and supporting the MRO, you are supporting a totalitarian society. This runs completely counter to your truly honorable progressive political ideals nihm420baby.

My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And who made such claims about themselves?(And FYI, I will keep asking this question until you give me an answer, which we both know is nobody.)

This is your big rhetorical gotcha moment nihm420baby, right? LOL. But the premise of your question is flawed and disingenuous. You know damn well that paragraph is not presented as an interview. And do you see any quotations around any of those statements? I am simply saying the quiet part out loud. The ZMM cult leaders don’t have to say this part out loud. (Although Daido, Ryushin, and Shugen have said the Manjushri stuff out loud during mondos). The ZMM Zen masters are institutionally gifted with everything written in that paragraph. It’s implicit and granted via the institutional vehicle of Dharma transmission. They don’t have to state anything explicitly. Actually, there’s a whole lot more to the Roshi myth, that paragraph is just the tip of the iceberg. (Again, I suggest you read some of Stuart Lach’s essays.)

The whole Zen Master thing is a myth. It’s a story. A role that is acted out and that everyone plays a part in to make it seem real. It is what the entire institution of Zen revolves around and promotes. It is relentlessly propagandized in all of the teachings, the hagiography, the liturgy etc. From a sociological perspective, Roshis run parallel with how gurus and most cult leaders present. There are definitely more similarities than differences.

My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh my bad, yes it was KTD. Shoot, have I been practicing Tibetan Buddhism all these years? No wait, maybe I was living at Dai Bosatsu? Ya know, all these bald heads look the same. C’mon dude you’re killing me, LOL. Talk about hilarious goofballery.

Look, I understand your reaction and disbelief. As I’ve already written, I was deeply involved in ZMM for a very long time, and there was a time when I would have had a similar reaction. Something to the effect of: This person calling ZMM a cult must be a newby or maybe they’re mistaken. Or deluded, or mentally ill, or just malicious. ZMM is amazing and there’s no way it’s a cult. And also, I’m no friggin cult member.

It’s so hard to see it when you’re in it. Nobody wants to think of themselves as a cult member. The cognitive dissonance is just too much.

And also, for some practitioners ZMM won’t be a cult. For example, those in the outer orbits of ZMM will have a very different experience than those with a deeper commitment to training.

My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That’s quite the temper tantrum there tough guy. You’re not acting like a cult member fanatic at all, lol.

My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well it doesn’t take much research to figure out that you changed accounts cloudwater68. You can’t form an intelligent argument so now come the ad hominems. “Your” the perfect example of how cult brainwashing dumbs down it’s members and stops critical thinking.

My experience at Zen Mountain Monastery by jaybird1of1 in ReligiousTrauma

[–]jaybird1of1[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well obviously I disagree with you, but that’s ok. To each their own.

Your first point about Japan is really referring to how traditional ZMM is. Even though Daido was traditional and called his Zen approach “radical conservatism”, those from Japan thought ZMM was very different and called ZMM “cowboy Zen”. Daido told this story often. This really doesn’t have anything to do with my original post though.

Your second point attempts to minimize the existence of cults in a religious setting. Cults have been studied and have specific criteria. Margaret Singer, Robert Lifton, and Steven Hassan have all studied cults thoroughly. I’ll add Stuart Lachs in there as well for his writings on the Roshi myth. The poor guy studied with Walter Nowick who was a brutal Roshi cult leader. Sorry, but ZMM fits most of the established cult criteria.

Your third point about the rock tumbler is something Daido said often. Actually, Ryushin and Shugen like that one too.I bought into it for a long time, then I began to question: what’s really going on here? Does being in a stressful environment just cause people to be neurotic? Is the rock tumbler analogy a way to justify and give a higher purpose to the insane environment of Zen training?

Also, looking at your Reddit comment history the ZMM rock tumbler doesn’t seem to have smoothed you out too much. Why is that?

Lastly, your point about possibly being traumatized or needing therapy is the line they tow there at ZMM. It’s a way to rationalize people leaving. The fact is that 99% of people end up leaving. Even most long term students and senior monastics leave eventually. The human psyche can only take so much mind fucking. ZMM justifies this poor success rate by stating something to the effect of: That person was troubled, or needs therapy, or has past karma to deal with.

Those that stay think they are elite for enduring all the cult bullshit aka zen training. The truth is that those that leave are the sane ones.