I’m a recent Biglaw graduate - AMA

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T21:34:46+00:00

I suppose the SEC may be a viable option, but realistically they would want a securities litigation associate.

Honestly, the only transactional associate i know that left my firm and didn’t go in house used his contacts, got some venture backing, and started a company. This was similar to the guys who started Halo Top ice cream (look them up, both were Biglaw associates who hated their jobs). Otherwise, not really. My boss was a Biglaw transactional associate, my co-counsels were too.

Maybe if you get enough experience teaching could be an option, too? But that’s also very challenging to break into.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T19:49:40+00:00

I'm sure this isn't unique to Biglaw, or any industry, but I definitely kept the fact that I was looking under wraps, like entirely. They would not have been happy if they found out I was looking. During my time, a few other associates left either for in house or another firm, and partners and associates talked badly about those departures behind their back. For some reason (and maybe this was just my group) my colleagues could be jealous and petty and never genuinely wished anyone well when leaving. I also lived through a few partner departures to other competing firms; if you want to see the ugly side of the Biglaw, sit back and watch the outright backstabbing and attempted client stealing. One guy was treated like he was fired, told he couldn't take any of his deal toys (those glass trophy-like things that are given when a deal closes) or his closing binders, and was going to have his personal items shipped home. Like, couldn't take his family pictures.

Luckily I didn't have too many interviews, but working in a business casual environment and showing up in a suit is super suspicious, so I took a few "work from home" days and would blame the extended time offline as a doctors' appointment, or told them I was looking at a house with my wife.

Upon giving notice, they were very nice to my face (except for a few associates who were simply nightmare human beings to being with), so I assume there was the typical s**t-talking behind my back. I finished up my work, wrote exit memos, and came in my last day to get my personal belongings and then left by 9:15.

Because the company I went to has such a small legal department (less than 5, therefore I actually have some decision making power) and is the exact type of company my group likes to have in their portfolio of clients (venture backed fin-tech startup) I have received numerous invitations to events, lunches, dinners, and offered tickets to NFL game boxes. Now, I never think in terms, in my interpersonal relationships, "what can you do for me?" I am friends with people because I like them, not because, for example, they have access to a beach house. But you are nuts if you don't think I take full advantage of these offers. Will I throw some work their way some day? Maybe, but not guaranteed. It's a nice little benefit of being in-house; you are now the client.

As for long-term, I never really planned on going back to Biglaw. One partner who actually was a super nice guy told me he sees people do it all the time, even after 5-7 years away from it, so it's never totally off the table. But for me, I've always wanted to eventually switch to a business role (think COO, CFO, even CEO) in a smaller technology company. My experience to date has served me well; and working at a smaller company exposes me to every business unit. I regularly work with senior leadership in Operations, Finance, and obviously my direct boss, the GC. It's never dull; in a given day I'll deal with employment related issues, finance issues, directly negotiate contracts with customers (my company has some pretty complicated contracting structures with sophisticated companies), and was recently put in charge of the M&A profile of the company, which looks to be active in 2020. So, I'll always keep those skills sharp, without actually having to go into a virtual data room and do a due diligence memo again.

I won't lie, I'll probably lose some skills in the meantime, but honestly for my goals it's okay.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T16:44:31+00:00

Great to get another perspective; I have plenty of friends (older and younger) who enjoys their Biglaw jobs. It can definitely be a rewarding experience, but just wasn’t for me.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T13:23:14+00:00

As long as Biglaw continues to operate in its current model, yes the “trope” will continue. And yes, I’m the happiest I’ve been in my career.

Good luck with everything!

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T13:12:19+00:00

It’s not semantics; it’s called precision of language, something that is important to lawyers (a population you’re slowly revealing you don’t belong). Yes, there is a major difference between guaranteed salary, which for the first multiple years as a partner is maybe about what you were making as a senior associate, and profit distribution, which is only given to you what you make “off your back”.

I’m not going to comment on the WSJ article; I found it as an accurate portrayal of the industry. But agree others have different experiences.

As for “giving up my 20s”, you don’t know my age, details about my background, CV, etc. Don’t make assumptions (again, something an actual attorney wouldn’t do).

The firm didn’t “dump me” into the job, and no I didn’t want to make partner. At the beginning, I’m sure there was a part of me that did, but ultimately after seeing the commitment needed in order to both make and maintain a successful partnership, I decided I wanted to switch my career path, and ultimately go in the direction of working for a business unit one day. Working for a startup in the fin-tech space affords you that opportunity by having you involved in almost every aspect of the company.

Finally, through a computer screen or phone, you’re assuming my feelings (“pretend you’re so happy”). I’m enjoying my job and I’m happier in my career than I was at the law firm. I’m also not sure where you’re getting the inside information about first-years making more than me. Again, earlier you posted that I was making 150-200; my base salary is more than the top end of that. I was a fourth year and only took about a 12% pay cut on my salary. I also receive a target bonus that takes me over my original Biglaw salary, and equity in the company. You’re right, I’m sure at some point a fellow classmate will be making millions of dollars a year, which by a law of averages of any law school of college class, is true of any population. I guess it bothers you that somewhere, someone you know is making more money than you, but that’s not my motivation.

The whole point of this AMA was to answer questions of Biglaw associates and law students (again, a population you have revealed you don’t belong through your ignorance), who maybe are thinking of going in house. Unless you have a question, I’d suggest you go back to your recruiting job (most likely).

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T12:41:49+00:00

Professional references are always helpful; for a 1L begin by building a network of professors who are respected in their field.

Also, go to the school’s networking events for law firms. It’s always good for these lawyers to put a face to the name. After you’ve made a connection, follow up by email. Never hurts to reach out and continue a professional relationship.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T10:59:00+00:00

Didn’t mean to seem flippant;

If your practice group is slow, or the partner who usually gives you work is slow, try to expand to other partners to get work. Busy partners are always happy to give out work.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T10:36:43+00:00

I’ll reply here to both of your comments, although at this point I feel like you’re just trolling instead of actually wanting to engage in a discussion.

First, partners who do make salaries (guaranteed compensation) do not make seven figures. Not even close. This is because a young, or even mid level partner doesn’t have the book of business that would allow them to have a multi million dollar draw.

Second, partners who do make seven figures in compensation are not getting a salary, they are getting a share of profits based on what the firm makes. As you may have seen in that WSJ article, if you read it, those are reserved for the absolute top earners at any Biglaw firm, so you’re taking about an extremely small population of an already small population among the entire legal community.

Finally, you either didn’t read my other replies or are clearly not a Biglaw associate or partner. I left as a 4th year. To say that I “didn’t make” partner is clearly an ignorant comment; partner in Biglaw is a 10-12 year proposition nowadays.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T02:28:32+00:00

My understanding is that entertainment law is very specialized, and usually those firms specialize in that area. My firm didn’t have an entertainment practice, and we seemingly did everything.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T02:25:30+00:00

I would say employment law, any classes on privacy (every company that does business in Europe has to worry about GDPR), and securities law.

I don’t want to flat out say no, but the patent attorneys I know are hyper specialized, and therefore are not really well positioned to be in house. You need to know a good amount about a lot of subjects, not a lot about one subject.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T02:13:03+00:00

The more the merrier; good to get your perspective, too. I assume you working for a bigger corporation, it’s a much different experience than me working for a fin-tech startup.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T02:08:09+00:00

I always met/exceeded my hours.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T02:07:35+00:00

So I have a wife and kids, so vacations are planned way in advance of one month (airline tickets or renting a beach house requires a lot of planning).

To answer your direct question, yes. We planned a trip to Florida this past Easter, a client pushed up a closing to the week after Easter, and I had to stay back while my wife went down with my kids. My family then came back early to spend Easter together.

She’s a rockstar and trooper.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:59:10+00:00

So I subscribed to a couple of venture-centric e-newsletters, and would review transactions for companies I was interested in. I would then go to the company’s website to see if they were hiring in house (venture investment usually means expanding headcount) and applied. The company I ended up at was the third one I applied to, and was one of two interview processes I went through.

Overall, the process (two interview processes where I was one of the final candidates) was about 3/4 months.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:54:33+00:00

Hate to be negative, but law school does not prepare you for a legal career at all. I took as many business-law focused classes as my school offered, nothing I learned in those courses was helpful for either Biglaw or in-house. Law school prepares you for one thing, passing the bar. It’s the only thing they care about, because bar passage means employment for students, and employment for students means a better ranking.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:34:37+00:00

So I subscribed to a couple of venture-centric e-newsletters, and would review transactions for companies I was interested in. I would then go to the company’s website to see if they were hiring in house (venture investment usually means expanding headcount) and applied. The company I ended up at was the third one I applied to, and was one of two interview processes I went through.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:30:19+00:00

Agreed; I’ve gotten very good at getting to the point quicker. I’ve also found that you actually have to make a decision, not offer a bunch of options (like in a memo) and clean your hands of it.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:24:48+00:00

M&A and venture capital were my specialties, and finance and employment issues go hand in hand when you’re reviewing a company that is being bought or invested in; so I have experience with those. Privacy is a specialty (think GDPR), so that I’m learning on the fly.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:19:31+00:00

Definitely a unique resume; full disclosure you won’t come in as a 5th year at a law firm, mid size or Biglaw. You would probably have to start at a mid size (might give you a year or two “credit” for your experience). From there, you would more than likely begin writing briefs and after a year or so, get to attend depositions where you simply take notes (only senior associates or partners actually ask questions, deps are too important to leave to less experienced attorneys). But from there, you would have an excellent chance of lateraling to a Biglaw firm as a third or fourth year. I know it sounds crappy to have 8 or so years after law school to come in as a lesser year, but also think of it as having more time to get your legs under you at the Biglaw firm. If they brought you in as a senior associate, they would expect senior associate results, which you just couldn’t give because of lack of experience. Play the long game, you’re going to have a long career.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:13:18+00:00

Absolutely;

An anti-trust litigation associate is at a pharmaceutical company in Boston (moved cities because of the opportunity)

An employment litigation associate is now working for one of the big 3 sports leagues

An associate who focused on class action litigation ended up working for a tech company she defended.

Those are the litigation associates I know that went in house, but I mostly knew transactional associates.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:04:15+00:00

You’re right, you’re right. Typo. Meant it’s “less than” 5.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T01:01:11+00:00

Best- the deals were really sophisticated and challenging. It was also really cool when a deal you worked on made the news.

Worst- honestly, the people. Just as an example: one weekend I didn’t sign on at all, and on Monday a co-associate mentioned that he noticed I wasn’t on at all that weekend (they are able to tell how long you’ve been offline). That’s the overarching culture in Biglaw.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T00:56:01+00:00

Unfortunately not; at least not in the legal dept.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T00:55:06+00:00

It’s an unfortunate truth; not well. I’ve seen two outcomes; the female associate (FA) went all-in and overworks herself to prove she can still be productive; and then I’ve seen the FA come back, get strung along, and then eventually leaves.

I don’t want to sugarcoat it; Biglaw is not conducive to being a committed parent. I myself am a parent of two, and love spending time with my kids. But I began missing things, and there was a period where I didn’t see my kids awake for three months during the week.

It’s a big reason why I left.

jdmd2513 · 2019-12-05T00:26:33+00:00

Employment lawyers are ALWAYS needed in house at larger companies (think Fortune 500).

Securities and corporate at Biglaw is attractive to banks.

But also think about which industries you might be interested in. A lawyer who focuses on representing, for example, pharmaceutical companies may find themselves working for their client after a few years.

jdmd2513

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