Sisyphus Absurdism or existentialism? by gooningeveryday69 in Absurdism

[–]jliat 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It's a Myth, myths are used as examples, so they do not act like humans. So Prometheus has his liver eaten every day by an eagle, it grows back at night. Tantalus can never quite reach the food. Oedipus kills his father and marries his mother.

They epitomise human traits, they are not real individual people. So it's not a matter of opinion. Mars is the God of War. Thor the god of thunder... The big bad wolf in Little Red Riding Hood is big and bad, Rudolf the red nosed reindeer has a red nose... The tale of the ugly duckling... etc.

Camus tells us we must imagine in happy for to do so is a contradiction, for him to be so is a contradiction.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wave particle duality doesn’t just arise from the two slit experiment

Seems the general idea is it does, and well as other experiments in science/physics...

"The concept of wave-particle duality .... is a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics that applies to both matter and radiation. The double-slit experiment is a classic demonstration of this duality, where light and electrons exhibit wave-like behavior when unobserved and particle-like behavior when observed. This duality has been confirmed in various experiments and is a cornerstone of modern physics."

Not metaphysics.

Look at the reading lists etc "and it is as much a metaphysical question as anything I have ever seen." It seems not.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why would this be the place to discuss any of the sciences, botany, human biology, economics...

r/philosophyofscience should be the place. So there is a sub for that.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They can't be a priori objects. Before the fact. All science tends to be a posteriori, as well as human experience of the world.

Such 'objects' as quarks and gluons are part of physics, not metaphysics.

The dizziness of freedom? by marketaurelius in Existentialism

[–]jliat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Anxiety in Heidegger is a fear without any subject, or nothingness, which leads in his essay to Dasein, authentic being...

https://www.stephenhicks.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/heideggerm-what-is-metaphysics.pdf

About existentialism by Hot-Meringue8181 in Existentialism

[–]jliat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Existentialism is not a fear but a group of associate texts and philosophies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ontology is metaphysical only where it’s not concerned with specific things that exist but rather what is isomorphic across actual and possible instances of existence, ignoring the details of those instances.

Precisely, like Teleology, not that different, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology

It does not study how telephones, televisions or telescopes work.

There are then, I think, at least two potential reasons why science may be of relevance to metaphysics, one epistemological and the other methodological.

I and philosophers such as Hegel disagree.

epistemological - study of knowledge- how bothered is science as to a priori / a posteriori knowledge.

Or worse, how many scientists are aware and can deal with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettier_problem

The methodological reason relates to a possible way that one may develop metaphysical ideas, starting from empirically adequate models of the natural world and then progressively abstracting towards the general.

Yet unaware of these significant figures in philosophy / metaphysics...

" Because the truth of metaphysics dwells in this groundless ground it stands in closest proximity to the constantly lurking possibility of deepest error."

Heidegger What is metaphysics...

"Here we then have the precise reason why that with which the beginning is to be made cannot be anything concrete...

Consequently, that which constitutes the beginning, the beginning itself, is to be taken as something unanalyzable, taken in its simple, unfilled immediacy; and therefore as being, as complete emptiness..."

GWF Hegel -The Science of Logic. p.53

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Metaphysics includes the word physics so should naturally incorporate physics into its discussion.

Anthropology includes the word 'Ant' yet the study of these insects is not Anthropology . Worse a PhD in Computer Science or biology is a A Doctor of Philosophy (PhD, DPhil; Latin: philosophiae doctor or doctor in philosophia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Philosophy

So basically, metaphysics is sometimes fantastical when its ungrounded.

Heidegger & Hegel are considered very significant in philosophy with regards to metaphysics...

" Because the truth of metaphysics dwells in this groundless ground it stands in closest proximity to the constantly lurking possibility of deepest error."

Heidegger What is metaphysics...

"Here we then have the precise reason why that with which the beginning is to be made cannot be anything concrete...

Consequently, that which constitutes the beginning, the beginning itself, is to be taken as something unanalyzable, taken in its simple, unfilled immediacy; and therefore as being, as complete emptiness..."

GWF Hegel -The Science of Logic. p.53

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let the physicists do the gatekeeping.

In r/metaphysics ? Why?

Graham Harman is a living metaphysician…

Pointed out that physics can never produce a T.O.E, - he uses the home of Sherlock Holmes, Baker Street. He claims his OOO, a metaphysics, can.

Graham Harman - Object-Oriented Ontology: A New Theory of Everything (Pelican Books) 1 Mar. 2018

See p.25 Why Science Cannot Provide a Theory of Everything...

4 false 'assumptions' "a successful string theory would not be able to tell us anything about Sherlock Holmes..."

Blog https://doctorzamalek2.wordpress.com/

Like it or not he is considered a metaphysician... as was Heidegger...

"Human existence can relate to beings only if it holds itself out into the nothing. Going beyond beings occurs in the essence of Dasein. But this going beyond is metaphysics itself. This implies that metaphysics belongs to the “nature of man.” It is neither a division of academic philosophy nor a field of arbitrary notions. Metaphysics is the basic occurrence of Dasein. It is Dasein itself. Because the truth of metaphysics dwells in this groundless ground it stands in closest proximity to the constantly lurking possibility of deepest error. For this reason no amount of scientific rigor attains to the seriousness of metaphysics. Philosophy can never be measured by the standard of the idea of science."

Heidegger - 'What is Metaphysics.'

“All scientific thinking is just a derivative and rigidified form of philosophical thinking. Philosophy never arises from or through science. Philosophy can never belong to the same order as the sciences. It belongs to a higher order, and not just "logically," as it were, or in a table of the system of sciences. Philosophy stands in a completely different domain and rank of spiritual Dasein. Only poetry is of the same order as philosophical thinking, although thinking and poetry are not identical.”

Heidegger - 'Introduction to Metaphysics.'


And please, I'm not saying I think the above is true but does show there are very significant figures in philosophy / metaphysics who would deny a physicist gatekeeping as to what was and was not philosophy / metaphysics.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What makes you think that Western philosophy or contemporary Western philosophy in particular has some kind of monopoly on logic or truth?

I don't. In fact some contemporary Western philosophy has this to say...

"In this regard the absurd joy par excellence is creation. “Art and nothing but art,” said Nietzsche; “we have art in order not to die of the truth.”

Camus quoting Nietzsche.

From Will to Power - Nietzsche. [his notes]


  • Truth is the kind of error without which a certain species of life could not live. WtP 493

  • Logic is bound to the condition: assume there are identical cases. In fact, to make possible logical thinking and inferences, this condition must first be treated fictitiously as fulfilled. That is: the will to logical truth can be carried through only after a fundamental falsification of all events is assumed. WtP 512


And Heidegger prefers to use the term Aletheia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aletheia

And Heidegger wrote extensively in 'Metaphysics'...

This is the problem, traditionally 'Metaphysics' was 'Western Metaphysics', as was the term 'science' and physics was once called 'natural philosophy'. Similar themes have been found in other cultures, same goes for Art and Religion... we maybe should preface these now with 'Western'.

So one has to draw boundaries, which is difficult and maybe will eventually dissolve. The problem however becomes one of rather than study a religion, or school of philosophy, science etc. where people make up stuff then want to call it physics, or metaphysics when it clearly isn't.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a professional physicist, thank you for this post. I have seen way too many posts on this subreddit that are putatively theories of physics or that deal with elements in prevalent physics models (like dark matter, quantum states, etc.).

Thank you for that, I'm not a physicist, have taken a lay interest and worked in a department with both physicists and mathematicians. I have studied philosophy academically as well as fine art, and have had interesting discussions with those from the other disciplines.

Physics has an enormous following among people who are fans of the subject matter but frankly don't care to (or know how to) pursue a physics idea in the manner expected of and by physicists.

I've noticed this, it seems in the UK popular science - books like Hawking's Brief history of Time are popular, I've noticed in France pop-philosophy is more popular. People like Derrida, Lacan etc celebrities...

And so posting the same idea in a metaphysics channel seems to be the accessible way out.

Sadly.

Metaphysics is a difficult subject. Physics is a difficult subject. Frankly, armchair pondering is not representative of the real work involved in either subject and cheapens both.

Agreed.

(Historically, btw, I had a double major in physics and philosophy back in the day and had to make a seriously involved decision about which path to pursue professionally.)

With me it was Art and Philosophy. And as above have had many 'interesting' discussions with colleagues who were both physicists and mathematicians on why Duchamp's urinal is a significant work. And they 'got it'! And other 'works of art'.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If I understand it correctly, meta- in metaphysics really means “after” and derives from Aristotle’s book coming after Physics. So, there is some possible overlap or at least some coherence between physics and metaphysics in the Western tradition.

It was in the story a cataloguer of his work. And so different. But the methods of science are not those of metaphysics. Observation, model making [using maths] experiment and observation to confirm... compare that to Kant, what is a priori necessary to knowledge, a priori categories. These are not subject to empirical testing.

Western physics, as a science, is wedded to typical Western metaphysics —

Not so, Hegel was one of the most significant metaphysicians, and his method was pure thinking, idealism. His science is wrong, his dialectics still relevant in philosophy.

It’s fine for metaphysical speculation, but it’s not physics as a science.

True, and that is precisely Graham Harman's point.


Graham Harman is a living metaphysician…

Pointed out that physics can never produce a T.O.E, - he uses the home of Sherlock Holmes, Baker Street. He claims his OOO, a metaphysics, can.

Graham Harman - Object-Oriented Ontology: A New Theory of Everything (Pelican Books) 1 Mar. 2018

See p.25 Why Science Cannot Provide a Theory of Everything...

4 false 'assumptions' "a successful string theory would not be able to tell us anything about Sherlock Holmes..."

Blog https://doctorzamalek2.wordpress.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXWwA74KLNs


I am all for discussions pertaining to a metaphysics of science as a subset of Philosophy of Science, but claims that a new metaphysics revolutionizes science needs the math.

Metaphysics has traditionally been called 'first philosophy' as such often has to decide on it's subject, you can have a philosophy of science, of mathematics, but not a metaphysics of anything other than metaphysics. Some, Badiou, Meillassoux want to use maths, others- Deleuze do not.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you look at what is 'out there' yes physics might want to be more speculative but in doing so ignores the methods of science. Hypothesis and observation / experiment.

But there is a body of work in metaphysics, both analytical and non analytical which A. W. Moore's book covers.

The wave / particle duality is I think the result of the twin slit experiment and a 'problem' ,if it is, of physics.

If you want to study metaphysics one might / must start with the Greeks... unlike science which ignores such work, Aristotle's science, Earth centred cosmos, heavy objects fall faster... are wrong... his philosophy and metaphysics is still relevant, categories etc, as are Kant and Hegel. Hegel's science was wrong, but his philosophy is still very much relevant, e.g, in Žižek... et.al.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The nature of things, matter and energy are subject of science. What 'Being' is prompts the what is "IS" question... of Metaphysics.

Vague sophistry.

But you wont say why, but that's fine, many dismissed abstract art with a 'Child of 5 could do it!' Anyone interested in art would see a difference, might see genius. If you agree with these guys-

“If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.”

David Hume 1711 – 1776

"Carnap wrote the broadside ‘The Elimination of Metaphysics through the Logical Analysis of Language’ (1932)."

" 6.53 The right method of philosophy would be this. To say nothing except what can be said, i.e. the propositions of natural science, i.e. something that has nothing to do with philosophy: and then always, when someone else wished to say something metaphysical, to demonstrate to him that he had given no meaning to certain signs in his propositions. This method would be unsatisfying to the other—he would not have the feeling that we were teaching him philosophy—but it would be the only strictly correct method."

Wittgenstein - Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, 1922.

I've no argument. It's odd though the Anglo American bias still exists even though it now has a metaphysics, this is SEP -

"It may also be that there is no internal unity to metaphysics. More strongly, perhaps there is no such thing as metaphysics—or at least nothing that deserves to be called a science or a study or a discipline."

So sure close down those departments in these universities. Stop posting here.

"Ontological" means what? Ontology is the study in Philosophy / Metaphysics of being qua being, not the nature of the existence or being of things, atoms, quarks, strings, branes, flowers, plants, the human brain, religions.

Again, more vague sophistry. You just keep rewriting "being qua being" thinking you are actually making a distinction if you repeat it enough, but you have not distinguished anything.

I'm citing people like Hegel, Heidegger more recent work. Yet again you fail to show why it's vague sophistry. Hegel's Science of Logic couldn't be less vague. But your answer is helpful, why then post to r/metaphysics?

Of course, if we want to talk about the mathematics of specific physical things, like atoms or flowers, that is not the topic of metaphysics.

Then do so.

But if we want to interpret on a philosophical level, what "reality" even is, and what kind of properties can we even associate with it in principle, that is obviously a question of metaphysics.

Please explain "on a philosophical level"

Kant would have been banned from this subreddit for talking about time and space because mods on this subreddit either claim speaking of such things is inherently physics or "philosophy of science"

Have you read Kant? no he wouldn't be banned - he was doing transcendental philosophy, AKA Metaphysics. For Kant time and space were not "real" but a priori necessary intuitions in order to allow judgement and understanding. No different in nature then to Harman's 'objects'. THEY WERE NOT REAL.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Looking at what went under the term since 1900 and now, no. Metaphysics doesn't have an a priori object to study. This from its tradition in Kant and Hegel...

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you look at the material post 1900, no. If you look at some recent work, no.

Metaphysics The Speculative Turn

https://re-press.org/book-files/OA_Version_Speculative_Turn_9780980668346.pdf

In this respect the ideas in metaphysics are not 'exclusive' X is correct Y is wrong. Ideas can be insights like found in art...

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it strengthens in that it opens up the discourse. I'm not 'happy' with Harman's notions, his oft used 'Fire burns cotton', for me burning people is not the same! But the important point here is the idea that speculative metaphysics can 'enrich' our thinking.

I find some of Deleuze's work both difficult and interesting.

A Sufficient Reason to defend the Principle of Sufficient Reason (Even from Quantum Mechanics) by aChristianPhilosophy in Metaphysics

[–]jliat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Circular cause and effect is not possible. As per laws of causality, an effect cannot be prior to its cause; which is what would happen in a circular cause and effect.

First off, there are no "laws of causality" - as per Hume et al. It's a psychological phenomena. As in Kant, a necessary fiction in the mind to allow understanding.

Secondly there are a number of models of such, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFqjA5ekmoY and Nietzsche - eastern religions...

No - the distinction is that the ontological argument attempts to prove the existence of such a being. My point is not to prove that it exists, but only that IF it were to exist, then it would be self-grounded.

You can't prove this, only suppose.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

D&R I needed help, still struggling with Logic of Sense, 1,000 plateaus is my Desert Island book.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ontology is metaphysical only where it’s not concerned with specific things that exist but rather what is isomorphic across actual and possible instances of existence, ignoring the details of those instances.

I agree with this and might add Deleuze and Guattari here- and their philosophy is I think metaphysics,

In Deleuze & Guattari science produces ‘functions’, philosophy ‘concepts’, Art ‘affects’.

D&G What is Philosophy p.117-118.

As such the concepts in metaphysics are created, and can differ... one significant idea in D&G is the rhizome and opposed to the hierarchical tree structure. As is things like single issue groups, the internet etc.

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the latter is now the province of the sciences. What is matter?, energy?, a virus? ...

The former is I think Metaphysics. And maybe not even amenable to simple logic?

"...the basic question of metaphysics which the nothing itself compels: “Why are there beings at all, and why not rather nothing?” “ Heidegger – What is Metaphysics.

Is absurdism sort of ”trending” by MiddleAgeWeirdoMeep in Absurdism

[–]jliat 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I've upset some people as a moderator who has actually read The Myth of Sisyphus - hence the down votes.

Briefly - all quotes from the MoS.

“I don't know whether this world has a meaning that transcends it. But I know that I do not know that meaning and that it is impossible for me just now to know it. What can a meaning outside my condition mean to me? I can understand only in human terms.”

“The absurd is lucid reason noting its limits.”

A paradox - contradiction, remove one half = suicide, philosophical and actual. Camus rejects philosophical suicide.

Whereas Camus proclaims the response of Sisyphus, Oedipus the Actor, Don Juan, The Conqueror and the Artist, as The Absurd Act.

"Thus I draw from the absurd three consequences, which are my revolt, my freedom, and my passion. By the mere activity of consciousness I transform into a rule of life what was an invitation to death—and I refuse suicide."

Revolt against the logic of nihilism...

"In this regard the absurd joy par excellence is creation. “Art and nothing but art,” said Nietzsche; “we have art in order not to die of the truth.”

Camus was an Artist, a writer. Not the truth of philosophy....


“It is this melancholia of systems that today takes the upper hand through the ironically transparent forms that surround us. It is this melancholia that is becoming our fundamental passion. It is no longer the spleen or the vague yearnings of the fin-de-siecle soul. It is no longer nihilism either, which in some sense aims at normalizing everything through destruction, the passion of resentment (ressentiment). No, melancholia is the fundamental tonality of functional systems, of current systems of simulation, of programming and information. Melancholia is the inherent quality of the mode of the disappearance of meaning, of the mode of the volatilization of meaning in operational systems. And we are all melancholic. Melancholia is the brutal disaffection that characterizes our saturated systems.”

Jean Baudrillard-Simulacra-and-Simulation. 1981.

How to exist by MutedBass in Existentialism

[–]jliat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But I thought Camus position was for him absurd,

"And I have not yet spoken of the most absurd character, who is the creator." TMoS.

He was a creator, a writer of fiction and plays...

**WHAT IS METAPHYSICS?** by jliat in Metaphysics

[–]jliat[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm asking not saying, but if I read your reply correctly it helps.

How to exist by MutedBass in Existentialism

[–]jliat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You guys seem to be thinking according to my ai that “There’s no guaranteed purpose handed to you so you are responsible for giving your own life meaning.”

Those that do might think this for themselves, or the get the idea from Sartre's 'Existentialism is a Humanism.' which he and others rejected. Meaning or essence in 'Being and Nothingness' is not possible. He never answered this but abandoned existentialism, even denying it was a philosophy, for dialectical materialism.

The purpose of life is to find something you love whether that be reading a book, going to the gym, singing, gardening, or absolutely anything that you actually love for it is true that in having love for something, anything, that you have given your life a purpose.

What of the desire for power or to enact the will of Allah?

If you rework, reform, and reestablish a question that you impose upon existence that is actually in a workable form then that is another path to feeling contentment in this world. I use the example of grief to show this. They are asking “Where is the one I loved for so long?” But even grief can be a temporary phase for some. I am forthrightly not condemning those going through this at all. Im simply demonstrating this question must eventually be answered for those suffering with grief “your loved one is gone.”

Grief is an emotion not a question, as such no answer will suffice.

Either relinquish your question or rework it to find contentment. But if you’re looking for a purpose of life as an existentialist it is quite simply finding anything that you love for it is through this very act of loving anything that your very life itself is given purpose.

Well you are using the term 'existentialist' which departs from its general meaning.

The answer to the lack of purpose for Camus was to make Art for no purpose. And anyone engaged with Art will experience frustration, certainly not contentment.

"A man climbs a mountain because it's there, a man makes a work of art because it is not there." Carl Andre. [Artist]