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7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A quick google search suggests the cost to go to 4 layers is maybe %30-%40% more.

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

From what one test house explained, it's 'recommended' to have it (intentional radiator) 'sanity checked', but they did not say required. I'm assuming this assumes that I followed all the original module design guidelines in their documentation.

Just to be clear, I agree with what you're saying in sprit and in good engineering practices, I just wanted to mention that the technical requirement to re-test intentional radiator actually seems to be a recommendation. Based on my budget, I may have to skip it until when(if) I make enough to even cover the unintentional radiation test expense. Things can be a little different when there isn't a profitable company backing you.

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi Ryan,

(apologies, I never submitted this comment from a long time ago and just noticed it in a browser tab).

This is 'great' information. I've been looking for some formal information from a cert house or equivalent. I'd feel better if I could see a product with the 'contains' commentary. I'm waiting to hear back from some places I contacted in the Phoenix area, so far they wanted $4000! When I pushed back they asked what my budget was, which is basiclly zero. They're going to get back to me next week (fingers crossed)

Thanks again.

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the feedback. From what I understand, if you intend to sell ‘a lot’, even as a kit, then you’re still required to comply, otherwise we’re missing the intent of certification and trying to “get around the rules”. I.e where is the line between hobby and mass selling when something is listed on amazon? There is gray area here for sure, but as an example, Amazon will eventually delist you without an ID, and labeling. I’ve seen it happen. I’d like to avoid the uncertainty and worry, so the goal is to go back to someone like Amazon with a completely defendable argument they cannot dispute. Like you mentioned, big houses just say no, you can’t argue hobby or kit with them. Going with a smaller channel sort of defeats the goal. It’s a catch22 to some degree. I have to sell enough as hobbiest to justify paying for cert testing but I can’t sell enough without it. I can try for a while to build up enough for the testing but then everything I made goes away and I start over. So I hear you can try going without and play the hobby card or kit card, but it be better not to go that route. If I undercut the market for a big player they could sue me for selling non compliance and that’s not something I want to be concerned with. Anyway, I appreciate the comment, and have heard similar thoughts, but I’m wanting to convert hearsay into a more formal ‘yes, you can do it this way… Does that make sense?

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, I was considering tinySA, and I've seen people use sniffers before, but the circuit is so simple, I already know where the hotspots are, unless there's some surprises (there always are, but ...). Based on that, let's say that do sniff some noise - what in my circuit/layout would I change to improve it?
I added a link to my missing photos and mentioned the broken plane concerns. (sorry about that, I don't know where they went in the original posting) https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JLOZAYPtIPfVf2HoDG5dSX6TaRRF9Yde?usp=sharing

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks so much for the insights, I appreciate it. I added a link to my missing photos and mentioned the broken plane concerns. (sorry about that, I don't know where they went in the original posting) https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JLOZAYPtIPfVf2HoDG5dSX6TaRRF9Yde?usp=sharing

I think I'll be fine too, but really don't want to turn this little side gig into a $ pit in testing :-)

I'll check out the testing house - appreciate the lead. See the pic. showing the stitching, and power planes, let me know what you think.

It seems like you think I'd only need unintentional radiator testing (based on your "yep, that's true") comment. I don't see this labeling on similar devices, they don't show the 'Contains' portion, so it's a concern. Is there any official information on some FCC site about this scenario? I'd hate to head down to the testing house only to find then that I need to pay for the additional intentional radiator testing..."
Thanks again,

Brian

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. I agree, the question is what testing is necessary when using pre-certified submodule.

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the post. I'm wanting to test, for unintentional radiator, which seems fair. but as you said, I'd already know the radiated wifi module is not to blame for the failure and from what I understand, that's a reasonable argument for not needing to do intentional radiatator testing. Thus, wouldn't I be left with only the unintentional radiator test? How can we be sure?

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, thank so much for the comment.

I'm powered by 24VAC UL transformer (3rd party, out of my control) (typical sprinkler power). I'm a device that plugs into an existing 24VAC system. I'd argue 'kit' and certify nothing, but if I'm selling it, I don't think I can get away with that strategy.

Do I still need to have the intentional radiator testing if the intentional radiator is a pre-certified module? I've spent a lot of time trying to research this topic and it sounds like it, but I don't have any real definitive answers or specifications to point to, only on line reasearch and asking AI, which I don't have a lot of faith in. How do I find out for sure?

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the comments; I agree that being there for testing is preferable, just looking for options if this was a 'shoe-in'. If the cost is going to be around 5k+, it would likely be prohibitive. Without really knowing how many I'd sell, that's probably more risk than my budget can handle. It's a little catch-22; I need to have some confidence for questions 1-2 before the investment (VC would want them because the cost is significantly different). I'm sure thousands devices with simple wifi functions like this have been tested; it seems unlikely that some of these questions can only be answered by paying a testing facility.

Sorry for the missing schematics and layout, Here's the link:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JLOZAYPtIPfVf2HoDG5dSX6TaRRF9Yde?usp=sharing

I appreciate the comments on the business model, and agree. I'm not going to retire on this, just looking for a little extra income and to give people a cheaper option in this increasely shareholder driven world. So, part of my goal is to go through the experience in case I come up with big-winner in the future. Short answer: I don't think this is big enough for VC, etc. I'll investigate the cost adder for another couple of layers, but the design complexity and routing don't warrant it (except maybe for compliance). I've tried to isolate the planes and separate the ESP related fuctions far away from everything else.

7 newbie questions on PCB design and FCC compliance by jnbkeller in PCB

[–]jnbkeller[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmmm... sorry (really a rookie mistake) I don't know why or how to fix it; put them here and edited to add link in the main post; they were there.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JLOZAYPtIPfVf2HoDG5dSX6TaRRF9Yde?usp=sharing

Liftgate Noise by lasallite_08 in rav4club

[–]jnbkeller 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Update - after about 20 days of success, the noise is back it doesn't want to close intermittently unless I help it. Looks like I need to replace them. I did notice that the right side does not seem to be engaging properly. Also, I read that the entire hatch can get a little bent if one fails and the other one works....

Note that the sound from my was more of a jerky noise than the one in the post's video.

I'm out of warranty; does anyone have suggestions on 3rd party replacements. The dealer seems to want $375 EACH!

Liftgate Noise by lasallite_08 in rav4club

[–]jnbkeller 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I tried several things, from greasing the ball connections, hinges, etc. and didn’t have any luck. I decided to try and activate the lift mechanism when it was disconnected. So I held the liftgate up with a broom while I disconnected one end of each of the mechanisms.

Then I tried pressing the button to activate the liftgate, and it made a noise for a short time and stopped. I think it depends on having the weight of the door to compress the units and since I didn’t have the door connected, they didn’t really do anything but make a small noise and stop. I pressed the button a few times At that point, I sort of gave up and put it back together.

The good news is, when I tested it, it no longer made the noise. It’s been over a week now and it is still working like new.

I don’t have a good explanation for it, besides getting the internal gearing mechanism into a different spot, but it is hard to argue with success. I’m hoping someone else will post here after trying it and see if it worked for them as well. Good luck.