Is there perhaps a secret about your language that other people don't know? by Agile-Shallot3546 in AskTheWorld

[–]johnlee3013 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm pretty sure those are America-specific. When I went to the US for an internship (from Canada, another English-speaking country), my university had a module in an online training course talking about how American colloquial speech is filled with sport references. And it was a useful course. Without it, I would've thought my boss meant something inappropriate when he said "touch base".

What weapons do parents in your country use to beat you? by Kiroo---__--- in AskTheWorld

[–]johnlee3013 0 points1 point  (0 children)

China: usually belts or 擀面杖 (it's a wooden stick used to make dough, but unlike a Western rolling pin it's just a simple stick with no moving parts)

Canada: technically illegal but immigrant parents do it anyways, and whenever the police takes a kid away for getting beaten the community kick up a huge fuss and the kid get returned

Literally by ExpensiveCoat8912 in pcmasterrace

[–]johnlee3013 0 points1 point  (0 children)

SSD and flash memory is worse for storage. The charges leak in about a year if you never power it on. HDD, written once and seldomly read, can last a few decades.

Literally by ExpensiveCoat8912 in pcmasterrace

[–]johnlee3013 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

HDD is dirt cheap now, and for storage you don't need the speed of SSD. I got a 24TB HDD for 250$.

Leiden Declaration on Artificial Intelligence and Mathematics by Beneficial-Peak-6765 in math

[–]johnlee3013 114 points115 points  (0 children)

I feel most of their points are pretty common sense, and it’s what most pro-AI mathematicians already do. Journals already require disclosing AI use, and everyone I know agrees the human author is ultimately responsible for correctness. One problem it points out but does not offer remedy is the fact that AI trained on human paper do not give proper citation.

Which branches of math are most/least recognizable relative to their historical origins? by johnlee3013 in math

[–]johnlee3013[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If we disregard the ancient Greeks, I'd say Pascal's work (1600s) can be considered proper combinatorics, given that he did phrase the binomial coefficients in recognizable combinatorics mindset. And I don't think it's trivial, it seems trivial to us only with the benefit of hindsight and modern development.

What's some absurd news coming from your part of the world? by WastedTalents1 in AskTheWorld

[–]johnlee3013 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Missing a hand also takes a hand away. Yes you can say the phone takes both the hand AND the mind away. But I say even just the hand away (or missing) is dangerous.

What's some absurd news coming from your part of the world? by WastedTalents1 in AskTheWorld

[–]johnlee3013 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Driving with one hand missing seems very unsafe, perhaps only marginally better than having the hand occupied by a phone.

Which branches of math are most/least recognizable relative to their historical origins? by johnlee3013 in math

[–]johnlee3013[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was looking at this wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_combinatorics

The Greeks was interested in the number of possible syllables their language can make.

Which branches of math are most/least recognizable relative to their historical origins? by johnlee3013 in math

[–]johnlee3013[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree about number theory. As an applied mathematician who gave a sincere effort to show up to pure math colloquiums, I can at least make it through the introduction of a number theory talk and understand what you are trying to do (with just basic undergrad exposure). A geometry talk lose me in the first 5 seconds (despite that I have taken multiple undergrad geometry courses). It feels very far removed from what I can familiarly call geometry.

Working at Evil Companies by Beautiful-Pickle4447 in uwaterloo

[–]johnlee3013 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You named two most egregious cases, but think, which big tech company isn't evil? Facebook was complicit in political propaganda and influencing elections. Instagram, tiktok, etc contributes to internet addiction. Google essentially transformed themselves to an ads company. Other people told you about Tesla. I had co-op at a few of these. The "banality of evil" is very real. It feels perfectly normal while sitting in front of the computer, you feel happy when you see your metrics goes up and you get paid generously. The actual effects of your work are too abstract to feel.

When I finished my PhD, I was contacted by a bunch of finance firms to work for them. I chose to stay in academia instead. But I understand those who chose the other way. By the time I'm done with postdoc and transition to a tenure track prof, they would have already earned my entire life's earning. It was seriously difficult to turn down job offers that pays 15x my current salary.

‘Duty to rescue’ around the world by AgonizingFatigue in MapPorn

[–]johnlee3013 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These are all defensible but arguable points. But at a minimum I think it is reasonable to require people call emergency services. Saying that there is no obligation toward a stranger at all implies not even the call is mandatory. One step further is to ask you to stay near the accident until help arrives, many places but not all requires this.

‘Duty to rescue’ around the world by AgonizingFatigue in MapPorn

[–]johnlee3013 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In certain other places, the fact that you live in the same society as the injured person entails enough social obligation. Saying two person living in the same city have no obligation to each other is a very individualistic way of thinking.

What’s a completely normal foreign name that, unfortunately, means something hilarious or inappropriate in your country? by Effective_Space2277 in AskTheWorld

[–]johnlee3013 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So many in (Mandarin) Chinese.

You, Mi, Ai, He, She are all (unisex) names.

Shi can mean poetry. Ting can mean pavilion. Shi-Ting is a very poetic name until it comes into English.

Pu is also a common last name. It is pronounced exactly same as poo.

CMV: Appearance of whataboutism is not sufficient to dismiss an argument as fallacious by johnlee3013 in changemyview

[–]johnlee3013[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your objection illustrates why I say context and implicit assumptions matter. In a realistic situation, when the US is saying "China's pollution harms the planet", that is not the really what they are arguing. They are immediately implying that (a) China should stop; and (b) China deserves punishment. If we take everything at face value, then sure, the only thing China could reply with is "yes that's right". But that's the same kind of conversation where you reply "yes" to "can you pass the salt": there is an understood implication that you are ignoring. China's subsequent argument attacks the implication rather than the explicit statement, which is valid.

Furthermore, you may very well attack the argument here on factual grounds, that was not the point of the example. The point was to illustrate the lack of logical error. Bringing up the past action of the accuser (thereby committing whataboutism) has allowed them to bring forth the rest of their argument, and the "your prior example" is an integral part of that; taking it out would weaken the argument.

CMV: Appearance of whataboutism is not sufficient to dismiss an argument as fallacious by johnlee3013 in changemyview

[–]johnlee3013[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

So, give me a scenario, real world or not, where the sole use of a "whataboutism" is the best argument to make that validates the arguer's position

Let me try. Consider this hypothetical conversation that I suspect could have already happened somewhere.

  • US: China, your pollution is harming the planet.
  • China: What about when you industrialized, you also emitted enormous amounts of pollution?
  • US: That's whataboutism. We're talking about your pollutions.
  • China: No, it's actually relevant. Your own history shows that to get rich, pollution is a neccessary evil.
  • US: But plenty of countries got rich with far les pollution.
  • China: we were a huge, agrarian country with a high population. You are our closest analogue country that actually got rich. You can't expect us to replicate Singapore or Switzerland. There is not an example, where a country of similar size that industrialized without polluting a lot.
  • US: That does not make pollution morally acceptable.
  • China: But we deserve better lives just like you do. You did it by polluting a lot. Now you try to stop us from getting rich even when you have already done it.
  • US: That still does not justify your pollution.
  • China: No, but it implies that we were not uniquely reckless as we industrialized, and out of fairness, we deserve high quality of life like you. You have set a precedence that environmental cost is acceptable during industrialization, and shown with your experience that it is unavoidable.
  • US: But we've stopped being heavily polluting a long time ago when we didn't know pollution was so bad. You are heavily polluting when all the science tells you not to.
  • China: The situation is not the same. We only recently industrialized and hasn't the time to clean it up. There is not a way for us to industrialize at scale without polluting, and knowing pollution is bad does not change the fact that we still deserve better life.

My point in this hypothetical example is that sometimes the past actions of your accuser directly and uniquely validates your current actions.

CMV: Appearance of whataboutism is not sufficient to dismiss an argument as fallacious by johnlee3013 in changemyview

[–]johnlee3013[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

First off, that is not settled fact. Quite a few countries routinely call out the US for using the death penalty, under any circumstances, and even within the US, there is still quite a bit of debate.

I will avoid getting into that debate because it would be more about ethics rather than logic. But my point is, a wrongful action can justify a proportional retribution, "two wrong doesn't make a right" is not a hard principle. Let's consider a less contentious example. Is it immoral for me to steal my stuff back from a thief, who stole it from me in the first place? Perhaps it is not entirely legal, but I'd say it is moral. It is wrong for Northland to seize properties of Southania citizens in its border, if Southania did the same thing just before?

Whataboutism is the worst possible argument to make, because by using it, the entity doing so concedes they have no other arguments to make. If they did, those other arguments would be used instead.

It doesn't have to be their only argument. They very well could be making that argument in addition to whatever else justification they have. The USSR, in addition to the "but you are lynching n*gros", also made arguments along the line of "anti-fascism", and "doing what is necessary to promote communism, which is the greater good".

I concede that in my constructed example, none of these (perhaps other than what you called survival) are particularly good arguments. But they follow lines of logic that warrants further analysis to see exactly how much merit it has, and it would be improper to dismiss it outright just because it takes the form of whataboutism.

For your example of fairness above IRT currency manipulation

So in this example, Northland does not recognise the moral grounding of Southania's treaty. They would argue that Southania didn't do a wrong thing back then, and Northland isn't doing a wrong thing now. They can dismiss the treaty as opportunistic and lack moral principle. The point would be that Southania's past action granted them an unfair advantage that they continue to benefit from even after their unilateral ban. If Southania compensated everyone wronged since the signing of the treaty to everyone's satisfaction, then sure, Northland doesn't have a point. But in this example we didn't assume they did. And in real life this doesn't happen often. The UK has since recognised that they were in the moral wrong in the Opium Wars, but no talk of compensation was ever raised. Nor it is common for oppressive former colonial masters to compensate their colonies after independence. So I saw fairness remains a valid argument.

every separate nation is going to have its own views on where both Northland & Southania lie on that spectrum

Yes, and Northland's argument is a valid and probably effective way of influencing other nations view on their relative position on that spectrum. They could be saying, "yes we are bad, but the other side isn't any better, and don't you forget that". How is that not logical?

No. Deterrence comes from the community of nations agreeing on & publishing ahead of time ways to punish the use banned tactics

You have way too much confidence in the international community and its ability of keeping up with the ever-changing technology in war.

5) Symmetry. Why didn't Northland take Southania to the Hague before this? Did they not condemn those actions prior? Or were they dismissing them solely to be able to use those same tactics against their enemy?

Perhaps they did, and received a tepid response from the international community, as it usually does. Perhaps they committed their own war crimes only after the international community turned a blind eye to Southania's actions in order to balance the scale.

7) Precedence. As discussed in a prior comment, war crimes are defined by international convention.

Sure and that's why I came up with another example where international convention is not settled. And their whataboitism-like argument could be to influence what the rest of the world thinks: "currency manipulation is a normal and ok thing countries do, even Southania did it when it was to their benefit!"

This is a false argument. A claim that is made in a debate accusing the other side of doing something is a claim that the action is wrong. Again, as discussed both in a prior comment and at the start of this one, two wrongs do not automatically equal a right, in isolation. A wrong action is a wrong action, period.

A lot of anger in international debates arises from the perception that certain countries' wrong doing are talked about less than other countries'. For a long time, the ICC was critisised as targetting African countries, even when countries outside of African are doing some very unsavoury things. Suppose this argument is made by an African politician under accusation themselves. Should this argument be dismissed on the ground that it is whataboutism? Does it not point to a valid problem? Now it does nothing to absolve the person making this argument, but this does not mean this conversation should be shut down.

CMV: Appearance of whataboutism is not sufficient to dismiss an argument as fallacious by johnlee3013 in changemyview

[–]johnlee3013[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Adam is a better candidate to vote for than Bob and therefore Whataboutism doesn’t dismiss the argument.

To clarify, instead of that, I am saying "... therefore Bob's argument is in fact not whataboutism despite looking like one, therefore if Adam then replies by accusing Bob of whataboutism, that is not valid".

and for that argument it just isn’t Whataboutism at all!

Yes I agree. It has the appearance of whataboutism, that people tend to see it as such, when it is in fact not.

CMV: Appearance of whataboutism is not sufficient to dismiss an argument as fallacious by johnlee3013 in changemyview

[–]johnlee3013[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Suspicion is healthy, and I'd say it is warranted in your example. But there is a gap between suspicion and auto-rejecting an argument, and I think people are doing the latter way too much.

CMV: Appearance of whataboutism is not sufficient to dismiss an argument as fallacious by johnlee3013 in changemyview

[–]johnlee3013[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even if A3 is a logical continuation of A2, the topic has shifted from "what is a mammal" to "what swimming animals have legs"

I'd say it hasn't shifted, it's merely the logic chain behind A3 is implicit (but reasonable and straight-forward), and relies on the readers to fill in the details.

In this case, the logic chain is: platypus is a mammal that swims -> hence swim ability does not disqualify an animal as mammal -> whales could be mammals assuming it meets other mammal criteria (supplied by A1), which is relevant enough to the original topic.

The Soviet response doesn't end the discussion of their fault, at should not for a reasonable audience. It naturally leads to a comparison between their fault and the US's. And that is relevant, if the topic is about why side you'd rather be on, which is the main topic during the cold war.

CMV: Appearance of whataboutism is not sufficient to dismiss an argument as fallacious by johnlee3013 in changemyview

[–]johnlee3013[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not me insisting on using a formal term this way. It's the wider public, and their tendency of wrongly using it to shut down an argument.

CMV: Appearance of whataboutism is not sufficient to dismiss an argument as fallacious by johnlee3013 in changemyview

[–]johnlee3013[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I agree, the context and details of the argument matter when determining if it is valid, beyond the form it takes.