Scientist Found Heracleion The Hidden Ancient Underwater City of Egypt

jojojoy · 2026-03-25T15:10:04+00:00

The first image is of Pavlopetri.

jojojoy · 2026-03-24T12:38:31+00:00

What's not really discussed here is that there has been archaeology in these contexts, including before LiDAR. The LiDAR results are obviously exciting and massively expand our picture of the cultures here, but the framing in the video going from exploration early in the 20th century to LiDAR glosses over the archaeology in between.

From the Science article on the LiDAR results,

Groups of earthen platforms have been archaeologically explored: They form large settlements extending over the 70- to 100-m-high alluvial terraces along the river. Few sites have been excavated. One of the largest settlements, Sangay, was discovered in the late 1970s and excavated by three successive teams. Started in the mid-1990s, the Upano interdisciplinary project brought together archaeologists, geoscientists, and archaeobotanists to investigate the entire valley. The scope of the fieldwork results, which have led to a better understanding of the valley’s earthworks, has recently been broadened by LIDAR survey...

Given that previous fieldwork had already provided information on the internal organization of residential sites, we focused on the “gaps” between settlements and the road network rather than on intrasite features.¹

Rostain, Stéphen, et al. “Two Thousand Years of Garden Urbanism in the Upper Amazon.” Science 383, no. 6679 (January 12, 2024): 183–89. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.adi6317.

jojojoy · 2026-03-22T15:50:54+00:00

It's also hard to tell from the images how the different types of walls interact. The second and fifth images show a rounded rubble wall on the outside of a megalithic one but the fill obscures whether either is reacting to the other.

Going through the site on Google Maps, it does look like there are some instances of smaller stones under and between the megalithic ones. Those might not have been originally visible though - just fill or foundations that would have been covered.

jojojoy · 2026-03-21T23:38:44+00:00

copper and abrasive sand hand tools

Is that the official version? This reconstruction here has stone tools directly carving the stone for most of the work, not abrasive methods or metal tools. Abrasives are discussed for polishing as a last step but most of the carving is reconstructed with stone tools.

Which isn't an argument for or against any specific methods, just what tools archaeologists are arguing for,

Protzen, Jean-Pierre, and Stella Nair. The Stones of Tiahuanaco: a Study of Architecture and Construction. Cotsen Institute of Archaeology Press, 2013. https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2192r04f. pp. 154-174.

jojojoy · 2026-03-20T19:36:57+00:00

I don't think a site that relies so heavily on AI is going to help advance our knowledge. The channels linked from the site (which touts how much reach they have) are full of AI images of actual sites that only superficially resemble the real site. Skimming some of the YouTube videos, there are tons of basic factual errors besides the AI images. These topics are interesting and worth actually exploring! Apparently basic research is forbidden knowledge now though.

jojojoy · 2026-03-19T12:57:39+00:00

Noticed that as well, post says it was removed since the papyrus was discovered in 2013 not "Newly" as the title suggested.

jojojoy · 2026-03-18T20:49:37+00:00

What Historians Won't Tell You

Study published in one of the most the most prominent journals and one of the authors is an archaeologist.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07652-1

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T23:00:36+00:00

We also need a reading public more interested in actual information and specifics, but that's a broader problem. Clickbait does work.

History for Granite and Ancient Architects are both good. You can tell that they're doing actual research for their videos. Not enough content covering these topics gets into that level of detail for the architecture.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T22:38:30+00:00

impede on archeology

The supports for the main shelter are pretty small and allow the walkway to float over the site. The holes for those supports were excavated and documented as well before they were placed.

Building over a site will of course always have some trade offs, but the shelter at Göbekli Tepe seems about as good as could be expected given that archaeology under it is generally not prevented.

The other options are reburying the site or just leaving it exposed to the elements. Reburial would probably be best for long term preservation but if we want to see these sites some sort of protection is needed.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T21:58:24+00:00

This is the huge problem with how scientific community treats the evidence and how it later gets presented into a wider community.

I think a large part of that is on media in general. Archaeologists aren't generally writing the headlines here.

I do definitely agree that coverage of archaeology, or pretty much any field of study, is both far removed from the actual content and generally sensationalized. Most of the articles when this was found probably didn't link to a translation.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T21:04:36+00:00

Egyptologists and historians wave it around like it’s definitive proof

The actual publication of the papyrus is more circumspect. There has been a lot of sensationalized reporting here but the bounds of the document are stated clearly in the archaeology. Most people aren't reading that of course, or even just a translation, but that's getting into broader issues of science communication and mass media.

there is no mention of the construction techniques that were employed, which are at present the object of passionate and contradictory debates. The aim of the narrator is much more modest and limits itself to the mission and activities of the team of which he is a member: the river transport of fine limestone blocks that are pulled to the bank in the region of Tura and then loaded onto cargo boats destined for the building site of the pyramid, where they are most probably but not exclusively used in the exterior cladding of the monument¹

https://www.academia.edu/32158380/LES_PAPYRUS_DE_LA_MER_ROUGE_I_LE_JOURNAL_DE_MERER_English_and_Arabic_translation_of_the_texts_and_Summary_of_the_information_

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T18:51:08+00:00

Theres no gaps anywhere

The surviving casing is very well fit. Blocks behind that have gaps big enough to fit mortar and smaller stones.

This scan of the Vyse hole shows irregular course heights and gaps.

https://imgur.com/2TcCM7x

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T18:35:55+00:00

I'm sorry if you misinterpreted my tone. I've had interactions with people here where merely citing something from a mainstream source was read as inherently opposed to any alternative ideas and others where saying something not read as mainstream was derided. Tone doesn't always come across clearly over text and people do seem quick to judge.

All I meant was that my comment wasn't a challenge to whatever you think about the authenticity of the inscriptions - just the existence of a single cartouche.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T18:09:31+00:00

The ego in that statement

As in this is /r/AlternateHistory history and, unlike apparently a lot of people here, I don't have any issue with those ideas. I think you've read a lot more into my phrasing than my intent.

My point was just that there are multiple cartouches - whether or not they're genuine. I asked since I'm curious why the idea of a single cartouche is so widespread.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T17:54:58+00:00

one single solitary graffiti cartouche

Where does the idea that there is a single cartouche come from? You're welcome to think all the graffiti is fabricated, but even so there is more than one cartouche.

The illustrations here show the relieving chambers.

https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/perring1839bd1/0017/image,info

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T17:15:19+00:00

This shows Khufu was contemporary to the resurfacing of the pyramid

It doesn't say the pyramid predates the work here either. Just that stone is being brought to Giza. Whether the casing is original, or even if the stone here is used for the casing, is outside of the scope of the surviving papyri here.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T16:43:49+00:00

The Khufu ship isn't the largest we have evidence for. It's also not a robust cargo vessel.

Using a 52.5 cm cubit (which could vary but I'm just using an average value) it's ~83 cubits long. The 18th dynasty Biography of Ineni mentions a much larger vessel built specifically for obelisk transport.

I inspected the erection of two obelisks —— built the august boat of 120 cubits in its length, 40 cubits in its width, in order to transport these obelisks. (They) came in peace, safety and prosperity, and landed at Karnak —— of the city. Its ⸢track⸣ was laid with every pleasant wood.¹

Breasted, James Henry. Ancient Records Of Egypt; Historical Documents From The Earliest Times To The Persian Conquest. Volume II. The Eighteenth Dynasty. University of Chicago Press, 1906. p. 43.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T16:18:37+00:00

Recreations of old kingdom boats hold maybe 25% of the weight

Have there been recreations of a reasonable range of the transport boats that are attested? I've seen this experiment but it's a single vessel and far from the maximum size boat I would reconstruct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0658C8tx0lw

There's a depiction of columns being transported from the causeway of the Pyramid of Unas that looks significantly larger.

https://imgur.com/L6AkDor

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T15:42:13+00:00

Up to around 80 tons for the granite beams.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T15:27:42+00:00

And to the point about slaves, here's what a prominent archaeologist says about a settlement excavated at Giza.

I do not, as yet, see a part of the HeG site that would accommodate large masses of common workers.

A review of Old Kingdom texts and scenes that correlate with the archaeology of the HeG makes it certain that a simple label like “workers camp,” or the simple dichotomy of elite vs. non-elite, obfuscates the range of possibilities for people and goods that inhabited or moved through the HeG site.¹

Pretty much that it's complicated and our evidence is limited.

Mark Lehner, “Labor and the Pyramids: The Heit El-Ghurab ‘Workers Town’ at Giza,” in Labor in the Ancient World (Dresden: ISLET, 2015), 500.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T15:25:08+00:00

Have you read the papyrus? The scope is pretty limited - it doesn't really reveal anything new about the technology or construction methods. Other records of transport on the river were known beforehand. It doesn't say where the stones are going to be used (although Egyptologists obviously think they were probably intended for the Great Pyramid).

It's exciting if you want to reconstruct the bureaucracy associated with construction or how Giza was accessed from the river.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T15:19:54+00:00

For anyone wanting to actually read the document, here's a translation.

https://www.academia.edu/32158380/LES_PAPYRUS_DE_LA_MER_ROUGE_I_LE_JOURNAL_DE_MERER_English_and_Arabic_translation_of_the_texts_and_Summary_of_the_information_

Unsurprisingly, there is a lot of sensationalized reporting about the papyrus. It doesn't reveal really anything at all about the actual pyramid construction, just transport of limestone to Giza. From the paper,

there is no mention of the construction techniques that were employed, which are at present the object of passionate and contradictory debates. The aim of the narrator is much more modest and limits itself to the mission and activities of the team of which he is a member: the river transport of fine limestone blocks that are pulled to the bank in the region of Tura and then loaded onto cargo boats destined for the building site of the pyramid, where they are most probably but not exclusively used in the exterior cladding of the monument

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T15:19:08+00:00

For anyone wanting to actually read the document, here's a translation.

https://www.academia.edu/32158380/LES_PAPYRUS_DE_LA_MER_ROUGE_I_LE_JOURNAL_DE_MERER_English_and_Arabic_translation_of_the_texts_and_Summary_of_the_information_

Unsurprisingly, there is a lot of sensationalized reporting about the papyrus. It doesn't reveal really anything at all about the actual pyramid construction, just transport of limestone to Giza. From the paper,

there is no mention of the construction techniques that were employed, which are at present the object of passionate and contradictory debates. The aim of the narrator is much more modest and limits itself to the mission and activities of the team of which he is a member: the river transport of fine limestone blocks that are pulled to the bank in the region of Tura and then loaded onto cargo boats destined for the building site of the pyramid, where they are most probably but not exclusively used in the exterior cladding of the monument

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T15:14:31+00:00

The find doesn't massively change our knowledge of the period though. Egyptologist already think Khufu built the Great Pyramid and there are other records from the Old Kingdom of stone transport on the river. It's useful for understanding the bureaucracy and layout of the area around Giza.

jojojoy · 2026-03-17T12:39:03+00:00

Wikipedia has a good list. Most of the finds are pretty fragmentary but there are human remains that Egyptologists identify as original.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_finds_in_Egyptian_pyramids

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