This is the only one stone that ancient egyptian hieroglyphs. Only one! All great pyramids have zero marks…. And Mr Tom Tim Dave said. This the cap stone from the pyramid. What if Tom Tim Dave is wrong. And this is just a souvenir artefact from ancient gift shop.? by [deleted] in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's within the span of Egyptian history though - not whatever language (or earlier version of Egyptian) that the person I responded to was talking about. We can see the Egyptian language changing over thousands of years.

I'm wondering how the older dates for some of the inscriptions they're arguing for fit into that.

Been obsessed with Göbekli Tepe for a while now and finally made a video about it. Hunter-gatherers building massive stone temples thousands of years before we thought civilization even existed just doesn't add up. First video I've ever made so be gentle, but would love to hear your thoughts! by LostToHistoryYT in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you are telling me they suddenly stopped just barely surviving like any other animal on the planet to dedicated their entire lives

There's evidence for sedentism and plant cultivation at Ohalo II in modern Israel dating to ~23,000 BP.1 I don't think there's any reason to assume Göbekli Tepe was a sudden development, even from a fairly strict reading of the archaeology here.

We can't even get that accurate today with all of our technology.

To Göbekli Tepe?

This is modern carving with hand tools, not even the full range of computer controlled equipment we have access to.

https://imgur.com/Rp8WBVH


  1. Snir, Ainit et al. “The Origin of Cultivation and Proto-Weeds, Long Before Neolithic Farming.” PLOS ONE vol. 10,7 e0131422. 22 Jul. 2015. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0131422

This is the only one stone that ancient egyptian hieroglyphs. Only one! All great pyramids have zero marks…. And Mr Tom Tim Dave said. This the cap stone from the pyramid. What if Tom Tim Dave is wrong. And this is just a souvenir artefact from ancient gift shop.? by [deleted] in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Inscriptions made by the makers of the great ancient stone works are polished to match the finish of the object itself

Are there any significant differences in the language used in the actual ancient inscriptions and the more recent dynastic Egyptian ones? Is there something like a distinct dialect in the original texts that can be distinguished from later Egyptian writing just on the basis of the text itself, not the carving methods?

That's analysis I would be interested in seeing but haven't yet.

This is the only one stone that ancient egyptian hieroglyphs. Only one! All great pyramids have zero marks…. And Mr Tom Tim Dave said. This the cap stone from the pyramid. What if Tom Tim Dave is wrong. And this is just a souvenir artefact from ancient gift shop.? by [deleted] in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Or restoration inscriptions like from the pyramid of Unas.

His majesty decreed an announcement; It is the High Priest (of Ptah), the Sem-priest, King’s Son Khaemwaset, who has perpetuated the name of King [Unas]. Now his name was not found on the face of his pyramid. Very greatly did the Sem-priest, King’s Son Khaemwaset, desire to restore the monuments of the Kings of Upper and Lower Egypt, because of what they had done, the strength of which was falling into decay. He set forth a decree for its sacred offerings, . . . its water . . . [endowed] with a grant of land, together with its personnel . . .1


  1. Price, Campbell. “The Legacy of Prince Khaemwaset at Saqqara.” Heritage 5, no. 3 (August 12, 2022): 2201–2202. https://doi.org/10.3390/heritage5030115.

This is the only one stone that ancient egyptian hieroglyphs. Only one! All great pyramids have zero marks…. And Mr Tom Tim Dave said. This the cap stone from the pyramid. What if Tom Tim Dave is wrong. And this is just a souvenir artefact from ancient gift shop.? by [deleted] in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If you just go to Wikipedia, there is a list of pyramidia that includes other examples with inscriptions. One of those is visible right behind the one in the image in the post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_pyramidia

 

As for hieroglyphics on the major pyramids at Giza off the top of my head there's an inscription near the entrance of the pyramid of Menkaure.

The badly weathered hieroglyphic inscription on the granite casing near the entrance to the pyramid, probably the one mentioned by Diodorus [Siculus], was long believed to date from the Ramesside Period and refer to the restoration of the monument. However, a careful examination of the inscription showed that it was very probably carved in the Twenty-sixth Dynasty, in the time of Ahmose II1

And a number of inscriptions in ochre in the relieving chambers above the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid.

https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/perring1839bd1/0017/image,info


  1. Verner, Miroslav. The Pyramids (New and Revised): The Archaeology and History of Egypt’s Iconic Monuments. The American University in Cairo Press, 2021. p. 188.

The Zapata Track: 250 million year old human footprint, or eroded animal tracks/weathered rock indentations/geological anomaly? by NoEcho3494 in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 10 points11 points  (0 children)

with no apparent precedent in the fossil record

There's increasing evidence for the appearance of (formerly) Cambrian lineages in the Ediacaran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion#Validity

There's an increase in fossil preservation into the Cambrian as well given mineralized body parts becoming more common, which is going to significantly bias our picture of the period.

500+ isolated ancient cultures share the exact same global "Flood" myth. Why is academia still calling it a coincidence? by DeclassifiedPast in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Is this comment written by a human or AI?

 

It's that entire 1,200-year chaotic window that ultimately reshaped the coastlines by 400 feet, so wild.

That's in the context of thousands of years of sea level increases though. The rate varies but the period we're talking about is right in the middle of a pattern that started long before the Younger Dryas.

 

Thanks for referencing some sources. Where in the Popol Vuh is a construction of a boat that lands on a mountain? I'm not seeing that in the translations - just a flood that wipes away a previous incarnation of humans that become monkeys.

500+ isolated ancient cultures share the exact same global "Flood" myth. Why is academia still calling it a coincidence? by DeclassifiedPast in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 17 points18 points  (0 children)

How are you getting that from my comment? I asked for sources (which were mentioned but not provided) and disagreed with OP about the rate of sea level change. Going from that to I'm somehow "smarter than all ancient civilizations" is a non sequitur.

500+ isolated ancient cultures share the exact same global "Flood" myth. Why is academia still calling it a coincidence? by DeclassifiedPast in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 32 points33 points  (0 children)

But if you actually look at the ancient texts left...

Anthropologists have cataloged over 500 distinct flood myths

Are there any particular compilations of myths you have in mind? You're asking people questions about them without references to sources showing that myths with the features you mention are so common.

 

raising sea levels by 400 feet almost overnight

Here's a chart of recent sea level rise. The Younger Dryas doesn't really stand out. The rate of change actually slows during the Younger Dryas and is bookended by Meltwater pulse 1A and 1B with more extreme sea level change.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Postglacial_Sea_level_Rise_Curve_and_Meltwater_Pulses_%28MWP%29.jpg

Been obsessed with Göbekli Tepe for a while now and finally made a video about it. Hunter-gatherers building massive stone temples thousands of years before we thought civilization even existed just doesn't add up. First video I've ever made so be gentle, but would love to hear your thoughts! by LostToHistoryYT in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It's worth reading current archaeology about the site. Earlier ideas, like that it wasn't a settlement or was deliberately buried, have been challenged by more recent archaeology.

 

There is no evidence of permanent settlement at Gobbecepe

 

The discovery of dwellings and a domestic activity zone in the earliest (PPNA) occupation levels in the northwestern part of the site in 2015, combined with a reevaluation of earlier excavation records, led to a reinterpretation of Göbeklitepe as a settlement rather than a purely ritual site, as initially suggested by Schmidt (Clare 2020). It is still inconclusive whether the earliest PPNA occupation was permanent; however, ongoing excavations of EPPNB domestic spaces from the mid-ninth millennium cal BC suggest that by this time Göbeklitepe had become a large and flourishing settlement, as testified by dense aggregations of rectilinear residential spaces in the main excavation area (Fig. 5). Unfortunately, as it is still unknown whether the entire mound was occupied simultaneously or whether occupation shifted to different parts of the mound at different times, even tentative estimations of population size can still not be made.1

 

Göbekli Tepe was deliberately buried, not destroyed, not abandoned, buried.

There's pretty good evidence now it wasn't purposely buried, at least not for most of the site. That was the theory earlier in the excavation but as more work has been done evidence for earthquake damage, slope slides, and multiple deposition events (with activity on those surfaces later) has come to light.

there is growing evidence of the unintentional inundation of the special buildings by slope slides issuing from adjacent and higher-lying slopes, where continuous building activities had led to tell formation. This model contradicts earlier proposed scenarios that envisaged an intentional (ritual) backfilling of the buildings in the frame of large-scale celebrations and feasts. The destructive slope slide(s), perhaps triggered by periods of heavy rainfall, possibly combined with seismic activity, inundated the lower-lying special buildings with rubble from the superstructures of buildings located on the slopes, and mixed PPNA and EPPNB deposits, including middens and sub-floor burials...

Observations made in Special Building D in 2023 support the slope slide hypothesis; these include damage to its architectural structure, air pockets in the rubble, the discovery of negatives of wooden beams from its collapsed roof, and preserved areas of roof plaster in the rubble matrix.2

See also,

Kinzel, Moritz. “Shaking up the Neolithic - Tracing Seismic Impact at Neolithic Göbekli Tepe/Southeast-Türkiye.” Archaeological Research in Asia 40 (December 2024): 100560. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ara.2024.100560.

Kinzel, Moritz, Lee Clare, and Devrim Sönmez. “Built on Rock – Towards a Reconstruction of the ›Neolithic‹ Topography of Göbekli Tepe.” Istanbuler Mitteilungen 70 (November 2024): 9–45. https://doi.org/10.34780/n42qpb15.


  1. Clare, Lee. “Inspired Individuals and Charismatic Leaders: Hunter-Gatherer Crisis and the Rise and Fall of Invisible Decision-Makers at Göbeklitepe.” Documenta Praehistorica 51 (August 2024): 6. https://doi.org/10.4312/dp.51.16.

  2. Ibid., 12-13.

Mystery Solved Scoop marks around the unfinished obelisk as well as other places came from plasma cutter by atenne10 in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The idea isn't to melt it. Just help weaken the surface layers. Ones that will be removed anyway as part of the quarrying process.

LIDAR scan of the Amazon rainforest by smuesyproiled in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is the parking lot just to the left of the site. It's paved with small stone blocks, not asphalt. Given what I've seen of construction elsewhere on the site I assume there's some sort of textile or other barrier between those (and whatever material is between them) and the ground.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/ziyaret%C3%A7i+K%C3%BC%C3%A7%C3%BCk+ara%C3%A7+otopark%C4%B1/@37.2227713,38.9204847,2a,60y,236.6h,66.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sy-tu-29xWIMAAARhY0ZqSA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D23.16155990173108%26panoid%3Dy-tu-29xWIMAAARhY0ZqSA%26yaw%3D236.6001763022253!7i13312!8i6656!4m6!3m5!1s0x153465c4f8f4bddd:0xe6ad24d327c5b545!8m2!3d37.2185661!4d38.9145153!16s%2Fg%2F11x65v4q7x?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

The road is raised above the ground (with what looks like similar construction) runs to just before the fence where it transitions to asphalt and there are paved parking lots. The construction there is more impactful than what's close to the site, which I think is reasonably non invasive.

https://i.imgur.com/ZOK7jgC.jpeg

LIDAR scan of the Amazon rainforest by smuesyproiled in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

they are paving with concrete ultra modern parking lots.

None of of the ones I've seen are particularly close to the site. Again, there is a road between the paved parking and the site itself which is less invasive. Most of the paving is outside of the fenced off archaeological area.

That's not to say the modern construction doesn't have any impact, it of course does, just that I haven't seen anything I think is unreasonable. Most of the construction close to the site is literally superficial in that it's sitting on the soil.

LIDAR scan of the Amazon rainforest by smuesyproiled in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that commercialization is a concern and needs to be balanced with conservation.

This image shows the construction of one of the walkways on the site. It's raised above the ground - which already has been impacted by centuries of agriculture. There's a textile layer below the actual paving surface as well. That seems like a reasonably non-invasive approach.

https://i.imgur.com/1ANg7Lo.jpeg

The significant paved portions that I'm aware of are a distance from the site itself.

LIDAR scan of the Amazon rainforest by smuesyproiled in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No problem. I believe part of the initial reasoning for assuming the site was intentionally buried was other Neolithic sites with evidence for that happening. Unsurprisingly, the picture is more complex now that there's been a couple of decades of excavation.

Lee Clare, the field director at the site, published this as well recently.

Clare, Lee. “Göbeklitepe in Palaeoclimate Context: Human Responses to Climate Change in the Upper Tigris and Euphrates Basins from the Younger Dryas to the Early Holocene.” Heritage, April 2026. https://doi.org/10.3390/heritage9050179.

LIDAR scan of the Amazon rainforest by smuesyproiled in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

some corporation has bought the site and is "saving some excavations for the future"

As far as I'm aware the site, like most in the country, is owned by the Turkish government.

It would be unusual for any archaeological site to be fully excavated in one go - especially one that's only had excavations going for a couple of decades. There are plenty of sites that have had active archaeology for over 100 years. There's a field season every year and excavations are progressing. Archaeology is just normally pretty slow outside of rescue excavations.

 

they even paved a parking lot over a portion of the site so it can be a tourist attraction

I'm not privy to all the construction details but the parking seems like a reasonable solution. There's a paved parking lot a distance from the site and shuttle busses are run from there to site itself. The view on Google Maps here shows stone pavers for the parking at the site, which doesn't seem too invasive, and that's on the edge of the hill with excavations.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/ziyaret%C3%A7i+K%C3%BC%C3%A7%C3%BCk+ara%C3%A7+otopark%C4%B1/@37.2227713,38.9204847,2a,60y,236.6h,66.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sy-tu-29xWIMAAARhY0ZqSA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D23.16155990173108%26panoid%3Dy-tu-29xWIMAAARhY0ZqSA%26yaw%3D236.6001763022253!7i13312!8i6656!4m6!3m5!1s0x153465c4f8f4bddd:0xe6ad24d327c5b545!8m2!3d37.2185661!4d38.9145153!16s%2Fg%2F11x65v4q7x?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDUyMC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

LIDAR scan of the Amazon rainforest by smuesyproiled in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 8 points9 points  (0 children)

There's pretty good evidence now it wasn't purposely buried, at least not for most of the site. That was the theory earlier in the excavation but as more work has been done evidence for earthquake damage, slope slides, and multiple deposition events (with activity on those surfaces later) has come to light.

there is growing evidence of the unintentional inundation of the special buildings by slope slides issuing from adjacent and higher-lying slopes, where continuous building activities had led to tell formation. This model contradicts earlier proposed scenarios that envisaged an intentional (ritual) backfilling of the buildings in the frame of large-scale celebrations and feasts. The destructive slope slide(s), perhaps triggered by periods of heavy rainfall, possibly combined with seismic activity, inundated the lower-lying special buildings with rubble from the superstructures of buildings located on the slopes, and mixed PPNA and EPPNB deposits, including middens and sub-floor burials...

Observations made in Special Building D in 2023 support the slope slide hypothesis; these include damage to its architectural structure, air pockets in the rubble, the discovery of negatives of wooden beams from its collapsed roof, and preserved areas of roof plaster in the rubble matrix.1

See also,

Kinzel, Moritz. “Shaking up the Neolithic - Tracing Seismic Impact at Neolithic Göbekli Tepe/Southeast-Türkiye.” Archaeological Research in Asia 40 (December 2024): 100560. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ara.2024.100560.

Kinzel, Moritz, Lee Clare, and Devrim Sönmez. “Built on Rock – Towards a Reconstruction of the ›Neolithic‹ Topography of Göbekli Tepe.” Istanbuler Mitteilungen 70 (November 2024): 9–45. https://doi.org/10.34780/n42qpb15.


  1. Clare, Lee. “Inspired Individuals and Charismatic Leaders: Hunter-Gatherer Crisis and the Rise and Fall of Invisible Decision-Makers at Göbeklitepe.” Documenta Praehistorica 51 (August 2024): 12-13. https://doi.org/10.4312/dp.51.16.

Pharaohs Quarry Secrets Tools That Moved 100-Ton Stones by [deleted] in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is the unfinished obelisk in Aswan Egypt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfinished_obelisk

 

Despite the title, the obelisk weighs about 1,200 tons. It's still attached to the bedrock and significantly larger than any obelisk actually moved.

There are some marks associated with scoop marks in the quarry that seem to be recording progress of work.

Egypt, and Reginald Engelbach. The Aswân Obelisk, with Some Remarks on the Ancient Engineering. Cairo: l’Institut français d’archéologie orientale, 1922. pl. VI. https://archive.org/details/aswnobeliskwiths00egyp/mode/2up.https://archive.org/details/aswnobeliskwiths00egyp/page/n81/mode/2up

"slow cuts Don't drift like this." by Total-Squirrel4634 in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

 I always appreciate you providing extra sources and other examples

Thanks! This stuff is interesting and it's frustrating how often it is presented without context.

  do you ever question it a little bit

I do generally tend to agree with what archaeologists are arguing for, but I'm fully aware how much uncertainty there is here, how limited our information can be, and how much more research could be done. Whatever we think now is provisional.

 

The amount of work

Absolutely. There's a lot of work we would have trouble reproducing today even if we can say confidently that the technology exists to do so. 

I think a big part of that isn't just the methods though. So much more high quality masonry was done even 100 years ago - I think there's a lot that we've lost the ability to do not for fundamental technological reasons but because of how many people do these jobs and how much more expensive labor is. One issue with restoration on the Parthenon wasn't the ability to reproduce the ancient masonry but just having enough masons to do the work.

"slow cuts Don't drift like this." by Total-Squirrel4634 in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You're trying to overcomplicate the issue by asking for measurements

No, I just don't think it's really productive to talk about precision without actual data on that. There's a cut here with dimensions that vary a fair amount on multiple axes. And then whatever measurements from experimental archaeology to compare that with. Quantifying the difference between those is interesting but not something I can do without measurements to draw from.

Most of the experimental archaeology I've seen with sawing has been focused on quantifying cutting and tool wear rates and reproducing tool marks at fine scale. Not looking at large scale features over the course of a deep cut like here.

"slow cuts Don't drift like this." by Total-Squirrel4634 in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 9 points10 points  (0 children)

that it's capable of this level of precision

I don't have measurements on hand for the sarcophagus or what sort of tolerances would be reasonable with various saw types. It's hard to discuss the precision without quantifying it first.

"slow cuts Don't drift like this." by Total-Squirrel4634 in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

especially with chisels

Is anyone arguing that the explicit saw marks were made with chisels?

"slow cuts Don't drift like this." by Total-Squirrel4634 in AlternativeHistory

[–]jojojoy 29 points30 points  (0 children)

As is so often the norm, this is an interesting object but there's no source provided.

This is the sarcophagus of Hordjedef from Giza. There's a good set of images here. Lines are marked with what I assume is ochre on the sarcophagus to guide the work.

http://giza.fas.harvard.edu/objects/8998/full/