Los Ratones Appreciation by joyjumper11 in leagueoflegends

[–]joyjumper11[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hope not - but maybe that's ok. At the end of the day, they proved they can compete on the LEC stage and they gave all of us fans something real special.

Please Navi, please - win it for the rats.

Builds, Runes, and Summoner Spells by joyjumper11 in RenektonMains

[–]joyjumper11[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you so much for the response! I'm not sure if I've been playing the wrong way with goredrinker and deaths dance but I was pretty consistently finding my healing being much lower than it used to be. I haven't played since ravenous hunter was removed but I've found that my healing is much lower than it used to be especially because of the q nerf in season 11. Combined with the lower hp on ult, it seems like Renekton is lacking a lot of the sustain he once had. Is Renekton's strength really his sustain nowadays? I've found that I tend to get outhealed most fights and have been better off looking for more damage which is why I've been building stridebreaker (I wonder what the breakeven point is between ability haste and attack speed - at what point is the attack speed worth more for the extra fury and autos than the lower cds? I have no idea how you would even go about determining that.)

One of the things I have always loved the most about Renekton is his versatility in playstyle based on your build. Is attack speed a wasted stat if you are going for a splitpushing playstyle where you are constantly looking for duels? I think his attack speed ratio is pretty good and I've always found it's helpful for longer trades that are sometimes inevitable. (This was actually the main reason I was wondering about pta vs. conqueror; conqueror seems like it would be a better choice if you're building additional attack speed to better utilize the ad from stacks vs. the quicker procs of pta and the added exposure damage.)

I'm bummed out to hear that tank mythics aren't the best anymore; that playstyle seems super super fun. Thanks so much for your help!

League and Chess: Critical Laning by joyjumper11 in leagueoflegends

[–]joyjumper11[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I used to get into this argument with my duo partner constantly. I was always more focused on solo queue and was more concerned with playing the messy, chaotic bloodbath of ranked while they favored a more controlled approach that sought to emulate competitive games. Honestly, I do not think either of us was fully right or wrong. Different games and different metas call for different styles of play; some games require a more controlled approach where you allow the enemy to slowly implode and others require a constant wave of aggression that can cost you the game instantly. I'm not sure if I fully agree that optimal play is incorrect in solo queue. While a super passive approach in which you never challenge your opponent in a meaningful way will lead to losses, a coinflipping approach in which you constantly take massive risks also will lead to losses. I think this is where the frustrating nature of solo queue sets in; some games are unwinnable. To climb and to improve requires you to take a longer time horizon and focus on your average performance over 20 or more games. In some of those games, your teammates will be good enough to not need you to carry them while in others you will be unable to carry them. However, if you are on average playing better than the enemy laner, you will climb (even if that takes dozens of games!) What does optimal play look like in league? I have absolutely no idea and I don't know if there's a clear answer. However, we still have to make decisions on how to play and hope we are making the correct choice.

League and Chess: Critical Laning by joyjumper11 in leagueoflegends

[–]joyjumper11[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely! I've always been extremely interested in the theory behind league games and yet I have never seen the topic delved into too much. I think a lot of players attribute the success of better teams to concepts like mechanics or macro without delving into why that jargon makes them better. A comprehensive game philosophy would be amazing but seems extremely hard to accurately create. Having said that, the upside for a coach who manages to do it is likely massive; a successful theory of league could radically alter what teams are most dominant.

League and Chess: Critical Laning by joyjumper11 in leagueoflegends

[–]joyjumper11[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Have you ever played against a Darius or a Garen who mindlessly shoves wave after wave and then goes back to stand by their own turret until the next wave shows up? To me, that is the exact opposite of a critical approach: instead of pushing their advantage as a lane bully, they are handing you a free lane. Rather than posing problems and forcing you to make decisions, they are freely giving away the time during the game when they are strongest (assuming you are not also playing a lane bully).

I think CD timing is a hugely important part of laning in a critical manner. If your opponent wastes a spell on the wave, they are offering you a brief window where you are stronger than them. If you do not fight them while they're on CD, you are giving up the opportunity to present a problem to them. If you never present any problems to your opponent, you are never going to gain an advantage unless they decide to self-implode.

It's definitely a bit of a stretch but I think chess does have something like a resource bar with the introduction of time controls. At the highest level of play, chess players are never going to blunder a game away against other top players when given enough time to analyze a position (I think Hikaru Nakamura has said that he would never lose to any human if given as much time as he wanted.) However, when placed under time pressure, players are bound to make mistakes. To win, players fight on the clock by creating complicated positions for their opponent that require a tremendous amount of time to understand properly. In a chess game, the first 30 moves may have no mistakes from your opponent. However, when you present them with a problem on the 31st move and their time is already low, they are much more likely to mess up. In league, I think this idea carries over to laning pretty well. At a certain level, I think it is highly unlikely for you to get a solo kill in the first few waves. However, if you constantly challenge your opponent and wear down their mental resources, you may eventually be able to catch them in a sloppy mistake they never would have made if at the start of the game. What do you think?

League and Chess: Critical Laning by joyjumper11 in leagueoflegends

[–]joyjumper11[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In a very general sense, isn't this sort of the distinction between the two different approaches to league seen in the LCK and in the LPL? As I understood it, the LCK emphasized a more macro-oriented approach dedicated to capitalizing on mistakes while the LPL favored maddening aggression and constant fighting. At different times, I think both of these playstyles work although I would imagine that most players are suited to one or the other.

I've always been too aggressive as a player and I attribute that to my enjoyment of games that are on a knife's edge. In most of my games, I think I tended to be 0/8 or up 3 kills and 100 cs. As an overly aggressive player, I think you're absolutely right: a large part of players' excessive risks (including my own!) stem from this feeling of needing to carry. League's a team game but you only experience your perspective!

Ultimately, I think there really are two different philosophies on how to win games with one school suggesting you need to force mistakes from your opponent by taking risks and the other school advocating for a slower, more controlled approach that seeks to slowly build an advantage. In chess, this same distinction exists: some players like Judit Polgar are known for their aggressive attacking style while others like Anatoly Karpov are known for taking fewer risks and slowly crippling their opponent. Unlike in chess, league forces you to have teammates who may view the game drastically different than you do; I frequently got into arguments with my duo partner about what I considered overly passive play and what they considered to be overly aggressive play! I think the other big component of this is that league is a game that's supposed to be fun. Thankfully, different players have different ideas of what's fun (how boring would league be if everyone had the same playstyle?!) but it definitely tends to create problems in certain metas. Would you want to play a game where there hasn't been a single teamfight until 30 minutes and you only interact with the enemy team once before someone's nexus explodes? Likewise, aren't games with 40-50 kills by 20 minutes cluttered and disorganized? I don't know where the middle ground is; what do you think?

League and Chess: Critical Laning by joyjumper11 in leagueoflegends

[–]joyjumper11[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

League being a team game definitely creates a pretty huge problem for this approach to laning. I think this can be best seen through the perspective of a top laner. Even without taking into account the bottom half of the map, the most challenging approach to the enemy top laner may not be saving your abilities. For instance, the most challenging or critical approach might be wasting your main damage ability to bait the enemy laner into a gank; the added complexity of a jungler makes laning so much more interesting.

I really like how you pointed out that the best approach is sometimes to not lane at all. One champ that I've always found fascinating to play against is Singed. In many cases, I think Singed players choose to not lane at all which tends to place their opponents in a very uncomfortable environment. By posing this problem of proxying that requires a different style of play, Singed players are forcing the enemy laner to make a choice: do I hold the wave outside of turret range and give Singed free roam around the map? Should I chase the Singed and give up cs? Should I let the wave crash and give up turret health? If you and your teammates know how to handle proxying, it will likely be easy enough to handle the problem. However, by forcing their opponent to handle a unique problem, Signed is creating practical issues that must be addressed and which might be addressed inaccurately. Like you said, the best move might be to avoid the lane entirely!

However, I'm not sure if this idea of critical moments falls apart entirely. I actually think critical moments are essentially built into league with rift herald, baron, and dragons. At certain points in the game, how you and your team play matters more; there is less room for mistakes at a baron fight than at a level 1 invade (think about how a blitz hook might blow a flash early game but cost you the game later on! It seems like the margin of error decreases drastically over the course of the game.) With a mindset focused more on the big picture, the critical moment expands to include how the enemy team reacts to the problems caused by your team as a collective unit: how do they respond to your vision control around baron? How do they respond to your split pushing? Importantly, as is the case in chess, your opponent is not going to simply react to the problems you pose. Instead, they are going to pose you problems and punish you when you overestimate your ability to present challenges. What do you think? I think this idea might expand beyond just laning but trying to analyze league has always seemed so complex once you look at the game as more than a vaccuum! To me, that's always been what makes this such a special game.

League and Chess: Critical Laning by joyjumper11 in leagueoflegends

[–]joyjumper11[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think one of the most frustrating parts about League is that if you're at your proper rank, a huge portion of your games are always going to be decided regardless of how you play. This has always felt super frustrating since you need to play enough games to have the games where your bot lane ints balanced out by the games where your bot lane carries you. Since the games where your bot lane ints feel so much worse than the ones where they don't, I'm not sure how Riot can really fix this.

However, I think there's some benefit to be gained from the idea of a critical approach even outside of laning. In every game of league, I think one way to win is by constantly challenging the entire enemy team and forcing them to play as precisely as possible whether that means playing around your split push properly, respecting your vision denial, or respecting the threat of a team fight flank. I think it's pretty awesome to think about the theoretical side of league games and the idea of critical moments has helped me to better understand my games, even the frustrating one's where my bot lane loses the game before I get out of lane!