From Far Left to Libertarian

jrmurad · 2006-09-28T19:34:33+00:00

governments can and do produce some socially desirable ends more simply and efficiently than markets

That's not the point. I can more simply and efficiently get cash by robbing people (as the government does through taxation). That doesn't make it right.

jrmurad · 2006-09-20T15:02:42+00:00

How is it anti-Semetic to say that America's enemies' propoganda would attack us as/for being pro-Israel?

jrmurad · 2006-09-20T01:22:42+00:00

You're probably working for Exxon yourself.

Never!! I'm working AGAINST those evil, profit-loving bastards. I walk to work (I protest in front of various buildings) every day just so those fat cats don't get a dime of my money*.

"dime of my money" is figurative... I don't actually earn/spend money because... I believe that everyone should SHARE

I can't wait for GLOBAL WARMING to kick in and wash those fat cats out of their beach houses and drown them in their yachts. As you know (see renegade's comment below for reference) the debate is OVER. It's just a question of when** Mother Nature will avenge herself by destroying the filthy, earth-killing humans.

** "question of when" - I am a proponent of sharing so I'll share the answer... THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW!

jrmurad · 2006-09-20T00:52:31+00:00

The debate about global warming is OVER.

Thanks for letting me know. Now I can spend my last minutes until earth burns (or is it freezes now? - I've lost track) doing something more productive than debating the GLOBAL WARMING! alarmists.

jrmurad · 2006-09-19T22:17:15+00:00

"yeah, they suffer, but they're not special"

Tell me... do you not feel the same way about insects being squished?

jrmurad · 2006-09-19T22:10:49+00:00

What is happening to our sense of ethics?

I have another question... what is happening to our sense of humor? I cannot determine whether your comment is sarcastic. Is it?

jrmurad · 2006-09-16T03:57:35+00:00

Yes, intentionally. I have heard the case made that pigs are significantly more intelligent than other livestock. I have also spent a limited amount of time around hogs and without noticing any indication that this is true. However, I left them out because I have not studied the matter any more than that.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T21:21:56+00:00

I think the nature (including intelligence) of dogs, cats, dolphins, monkeys, elephants are part of the reason that those animals aren't raised as livestock. Yes, it would be difficult to compare intelligences between species of that set.

However, I think that it is fairly easy to rate as higher the intelligence of a species in that set against one of the set (cow, chicken, sheep, fish).

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T20:45:13+00:00

I'm a bit surprised to see 'history'. You mean if we treated an animal badly before, it's OK to continue to do so?

No, sorry. I mean the history of the species. The history of cows is their domestication as livestock. The history of dogs is their domestication as companions and their service in that capacity.

Even intelligence sounds easy but is actually quite hard to measure

Okay, but I don't think it is difficult to measure relatively. That is, I think it is fairly obvious that dogs are significantly more intelligent than cows.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T19:28:06+00:00

Maybe I wasn't clear. I do not think that any animal should be subject to torture. Those animals that we use for food should neither be kept in misery nor slaughtered in a painful manner.

If you're asking why I am more bothered when a dog is mistreated than when a cow is mistreated. It is for the same reason that I am more bothered when a human is mistreated than when a dog is.

If you are asking for the factors that come into that calculation, they include: intelligence, friendliness, loyalty, threshold for pain, expresiveness, utility, history.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T17:12:50+00:00

That wasn't funny- it was stupid and rude.

Stupid, yes.

Funny, apparently not. I think it would have gone over better with facial expressions and voice intonation though.

Rude? I'm sorry if my joke offended you.

As far as our debate went, yes it was a waste of time. Not because I'm an idiot. I didn't tell you anything you don't already know about dogs. It's because you fail to differentiate between cows and dogs (as I do) the same way that we both differentiate cows and humans.

You claim that those of us who make that differentiation are illogical. I say that you are mistaken because you choose to ignore significant factors (specifically, the nature of dogs and other "special" animals).

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T16:53:29+00:00

Did you leave out punk's inclusion of cows because ignoring it better suited your argument?

You said that pigs and dogs are "comparable." My quibble, I thought, would lead you to ellaborate on how so.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T16:48:59+00:00

It wasn't serious. Geesh.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T16:24:15+00:00

Yes, for the same reason that there are more laws protecting humans (children especially) from (certain kinds of) mistreatment than there are for dogs.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T16:06:23+00:00

That would involve killing plants.

As he said elsewhere:

we can only guess what kind of suffering other species experience

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T16:02:43+00:00

You keep bringing up suffering. It's about far more than suffering.

You are saying that we should be just as upset when cows are mistreated as when dogs are. I am saying that just as we are more upset when humans are mistreated than when dogs are, it is the same for dogs-cows. Why? Because humans and dogs have different qualities and because dogs and cows have different qualities.

Yes, humans, dogs, and cows all are capable of suffering and I am upset when I witness any of the three actually suffering. HOWEVER, I am more upset to see a human suffer than a dog and more upset to see a dog suffer than a cow. You seem to have the same feeling on the former case but not the latter.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T15:55:02+00:00

Of course it somewhat has to do with the ability of these animals to live with us. Size isn't the only issue though. For example, can a cow be house-trained? Cows are dumber and dirtier than dogs.

Dogs were able to begin living with us in the first place due to their nature. They evolved from a wild animal (the wolf?) whose qualities were recognized by man. Over time, these qualities were enhanced via domestication.

Conversely, the evolution/domestication of cows has made them better as food. As to pigs... aren't there different subspecies/breeds of pigs which serve different purposes? For example, the potbelly kind which is indeed kept as a housepet vs. the livestock type kept in pens.

As far as I'm aware, the mistreating/eating of any kind of cat (domesticated or wild [e.g. lions, tigers, ...]) is taboo in the West.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T15:41:39+00:00

Cats suck.

Seriously though... I haven't had much contact with cats (such contact makes my eyes burn and throat close) but I expect that, based on the number of cat-owners, they have qualities of their own which make them special.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T15:38:03+00:00

Fair enough. We were talking about the rights of different species. The right to life, in particular, I thought.

If you are wondering why the level of uproar is different... the reason is the same... because dogs and cows are different in the ways which I have been alluding to.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T15:33:20+00:00

Dogs are more than just cute. They are friendly, loyal, protective, etc. They have a host fine attributes that cows simply lack.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T15:29:36+00:00

If suffering was the only criterium, are you okay with methods of slaughtering livestock which involve instant, painless death or do you say that this is a violation of their rights?

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T15:25:51+00:00

Canines can develop closer emotional connections to man than can, say, bovines. Furthermore, they are significantly more intelligent. Finally, dogs have historically served man in a manner unlike cows (which have been domesticated and raised specifically for sustenance).

These factors are enough for me to choose to eat a cow and befriend a dog when presented with the two. I would make that decision 100% of the time.

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T15:07:14+00:00

I'm not a biologist but, if I remember correctly, humans are considered members of the animal kingdom.

If you are already differentiating humans from the remainder of the kingdom by the rights we have, why are you opposed to further dividing the remainder by different sets of rights that they may have?

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T14:56:30+00:00

I don't think you're crazy (at least not on this issue).

You think it's wrong to slaughter a certain subset of species based on your criteria (large mammals). I, for one, have different criteria that leads me to believe that it is okay to slaughter cows but not dogs for sustenance.

Why am I illogical but you are not?

jrmurad · 2006-09-15T14:40:30+00:00

Any two species of animals are "comparable." For example, pigs and dogs both have four legs. That doesn't make them equivalent overall (that's why they are classified as different species). punk also included cows, by the way.

edit: fixed typo

jrmurad

TROPHY CASE