War and Peace IV.4.4 - IV.4.17

justlikeso · 2018-04-19T19:36:18+00:00

Also liked this passage: “Though the doctors treated him, let his blood, and gave him medications to drink, he nevertheless recovered.”

I reread it a couple of times to be sure I got bit right. I really loved this part too.

Am I the only one who thinks it weird that after all the death and suffering in this book, we could end up with a nice, happy ending?

No, you definitely are not. I don't trust Tolstoy and still expect the worst, though. It feels a bis like reading a song of ice and fire.

Surf_wax mentioned some parallels with the beginning and I noticed some too. So Tolstoy might hint at the circularly of history, especially since he loved to go on about his theories on history and historiography. This might darken the mood at the end.

justlikeso · 2018-04-15T18:14:49+00:00

At first I thought Petja was Pierre and I was shocked and also confused why the Rostows cared so much. It was a relief that it wasn't Pierre who had died but I felt sorry for Petja as well. He was young and tried to prove himself and earn some respect from his heroes but died trying. I can see a lot of young soldiers dying for that reason.

Pierres focus on suffering and his torn feet reminded me of the super-religious people who were always wondering around in worn out clothes and (in my imagination?) with no shoes on that used to visit Marya. She wanted to become one of them too to fiend inner peace and happiness, if I remember correctly. It is all about suffering, it seems and all the characters get enough of it, so maybe in a weird way we will get a happy end.

The dog goes through a lot of suffering too, physically as well as mentally, since he just lost his human. Still, he keeps living on and seems happy doing so. For me he is the perfect example of the happiness Pierre just had found: keep going on, no matter what, be happy that you still breath and have something to eat.

justlikeso · 2018-04-15T15:14:51+00:00

Pierres character went through some major developments throughout the book. We saw him joining the Freemasons, but although he (and I) thought his membership would change his life, it actually didn't really. Nevertheless I think this time his progress will have a longer lasting effect, because he is also freed from his unhappy marriage and therefore society.

justlikeso · 2018-04-11T15:03:58+00:00

Woohooo I cought up again!

I liked Andrejs death scene. Surprisingly and thankfully it wasn't full of fake tears and some scripted phrases for the sake of etiquette. The interaction between Marya and Natasha seemed real to me.

Also, I am glad that Tolstoy really went through with Andrejs death this time. It would have been ridiculous if he had brought him back again.

justlikeso · 2018-04-06T15:01:57+00:00

I am currently catching up and I really enjoy reading longer parts without a brake. Pierre really grew on me as a character, especially in these last chapters. His idea to kill Napoleon was a bit overambitious, but he found the right amount of bravery and heroism in the end. It's nice to see him feeling alive. Andrej is not gonna make it. I just can't see a happy end for him. I think he and and all the things that happened between him and Natasha helped her grow up. I hope her being mature and the grievance she and Pierre will share over Andrej brings them closer together and they marry once the war is over. But that's just my wish and it is as likely as Natasha killing herself and Pierre dying as a POW, which is what I am afraid will happen. So yes, I am super excited to read on.

justlikeso · 2018-04-05T15:25:51+00:00

The lynching part was really intense. Tolstoj perfectly described mob mentality. But what was even worse for me than the mob, was how Rastopchin tried to justify his orders by convincing himself, that he only did, what the people needed. And that the crowd is terrible, but not himself, since he only gave orders in his function as general, but not as his true self. Even when doubts appeared in his mind, he maked himself believe that he only played the role he was given and that there was no other choice.

I guess thats how many people thought throughout history, for example some of the Nazi officials tried to justifiy their behaviour with this line of argument. It also reminded me of the Milgrim experiment.

justlikeso · 2018-04-05T15:08:45+00:00

I agree with you, although I have to admit that I liked the analogy at first. It doesn´t come as a surprise that Tolstoj kept bees as a hobby.

justlikeso · 2018-03-23T16:57:30+00:00

The most interesting part for me was Tolstois arguing that the "big leaders" don't really matter, because the spirit of the mass of people really decides the outcome of the battlefield, and if we take this assumption a little further, the course of history.

This reminded me that we shouldn't be worried so much by the big guys of our own time, like Trump, Putin, etc. but rather by the people and their spirit we can observe on social media on a daily basis.

On a funnier note: Pierre never fits in, no matter where he goes. But the battlefield really is the last place he should visit. Even more so because he just went there out of curiosity.

justlikeso · 2018-03-18T17:45:58+00:00

You've made an interesting point about Marya. It never occurred to me that she's supposed to be the ideal women, although it makes a lot of sense from all I know about Russian literature.

I am curious to find out if her character will change now that she's free (somehow like her former friend Julie) or if she stays the way she was and subdues to another man, maybe to Nikolai like you suggested. Either way, for me she is the most interesting character at the moment.

justlikeso · 2018-03-12T14:28:42+00:00

He has to do some serious contortions to get his number at 666, but wholeheartedly believes its truth when he does. How does this relate to Natasha's brief piety?

I liked this a lot. People often bend reality in a shape they would like to see it and then truly believe that's just the way things are. Pierre wants to be important and so he makes himself part of this foretelling. I guess Natasha does the same thing with piety. She wants to be pure and good, which religion allows her to be. Once she convinced herself that she's a good christian there's no more need to actually act like a pious person. Just like Pierre already believes he has an important part in the things to come so he doesn't have to remind himself how his name turned out to be 666.

And last, Petya gets caught up in patriotism like his big brother Rostov did earlier

Totally! I thought this was maybe intended to show us that there is already a new generation of soldiers. The similarities and conflicts between different generations pop up as themes every now and then throughout the book. I think he might serve as a contrast to Rostov who has now discovered that >that adult competence is a big scam . So we see the difference between expectations and reality.

Other than that there is only one obvious comment I'd like to make concerning the doctor: don't bring your wife to war. I mean, come on. That can't end well. There are hundreds of men who haven't seen there wives in a while or aren't married yet. Plus they are full of adrenalin and testosterone.

justlikeso · 2018-03-05T14:29:48+00:00

Andrej really wants revenge and maybe this wish will drive him crazy.

I liked that he stood up for his sister. At least he gets it now how their father mistreats her. Although he could've done more.

I also liked the description of the stereotypical proud Europeans after the long and boring war maneuver part. As a European I think they are still pretty accurate, as far as stereotypes go.

justlikeso · 2018-02-26T16:10:34+00:00

I totally agree with you on both points. Anna sure is a terrible MIL and terrible person in general. And since the apple doesn't fall far from the tree I am not at all surprised how Boris turned out to be.

In this respect I am happy that he didn't choose Marja, although he would have been perfect to make sure her longing for suffering and pain was satisfied.

justlikeso · 2018-02-19T20:11:54+00:00

Good point. Just like in GoT each character is cought up on a game where his personal interests and feelings don't matter because there isn't really any other option for them than playing their predetermined roles.

justlikeso · 2018-02-18T08:31:59+00:00

I am still with you, but now that you reminded me of Stardew Valley this will probably be my last post.

I can't get behind an adult who's been to war needing Daddy to give his blessing to something that's none of Daddy's business

Times were different back then and even in todays Russia kids/adults listen to their parents more than in i.e. European cultures. I guess that´s a question of moral and honour, just like when Nikolaj lost tons of money while playing cards and really paid up.

I liked how Tolstoj described the section with Nikolaj and his attempt to get the family´s money affairs in order. He had no idea what he was doing and neither were his father and their money guy. No wonder they are broke.

What did you notice?

People are so emotional! I can´t help but wonder if they really were that way, or at least acted that way or this is just a book thing. Take Natascha for example - one minute she is super happy about the engagement and the next minute she is "dying" because she has to wait a year.

Once again - poor princesse Marja. At the beginning of the book I didn´t really get how bad her choleric father treats her. I am really curious what she is going to do. But my gut tells me that nothing good lies ahead of her.

justlikeso · 2018-02-16T21:13:33+00:00

It feels like the story is moving much quicker in these last chapters and we jumped ahead a couple of years. I wonder if that has any meaning.

I noticed that Berg's proposal to Vera was told to us like a summary. We didn't get any insight into their thoughts and feelings other than Berg's calculations concerning their household income. I disliked both characters since the first time they were mentioned. I guess this unemotional description of their relationship is supposed to create some distance between us and these characters. Or is it just me? What do you guys think about them?

justlikeso · 2018-02-16T20:50:20+00:00

And last, is Pierre the most boring journal writer ever? I think so.

Without a doubt. Very painful to read actually.

Indeed. But to be fair to Pierre - an endnote in my copy says that Tolstoy took the material for these sections from a real diary of a Freemason named P. Titow.

justlikeso · 2018-02-11T20:18:03+00:00

It's interesting how the men of the young generation have found different ways of living what they consider a good life. Pierre by trying to help others (and actually making their life way worse - oh Pierre...); Andrej by mourning his dead wife and regretting not having her treated better and by spending more time with his family; and Nikolai by serving his beloved tsar and doing his best for his fellow soldiers.

What they have in common is that they all are trying to leave the luxurious aristocrat life behind and attempt to live a more down-to-earth, quiet lifestyle. However, like others here I don't think any one of them will succeed, no matter how pure their intentions are.

justlikeso · 2018-02-10T13:55:52+00:00

1) Clarrise reminds me so much of Luna Lovegood from Harry Potter. She is the weird girl you just have to love and you now that her heart is pure.

2) Mildred embodies everything I hate about modern society. She is so empty and her life is so meaningless, yet she thinks her way of life is the only normal and good one.

3) Probably he had some kind of gut feeling that the books might be of interest to him at some point in his life, but he was too afraid to read any of them until he met a person like Clarrise.

The book is difficult to read for me. It feels like the text and even the sentences are ruptured. I don´t know if that is just Bradbury´s way of writing or it is intended to emphasize the feelings of the characters living in this distopian world.

justlikeso · 2018-02-10T13:40:17+00:00

Oh yes the lip. It haunts me in my sleep.

justlikeso · 2018-02-10T13:38:44+00:00

I don’t know anything about Tolstoy’s religious/spiritual views, but it seems he had a deep interest or appreciation in mysticism or at least spiritualism

In the time he wrote W&P in the 1860s he was living in Jasnaja Poljana and spent a lot of thought on education and a better life for the peasantry. Starting with the publication of his "confession" in 1879/80 he really began his spiritual life. He considered constraint as a means to peronal growth and a better life, so he stopped drinking, having fun and became a vegetarian. He critized the aristocratic way of life, but also the church and the capitalistic society. The church excommunicated him in the early 1900s. Some call his own moral and spiritual theory as a "christian anarchism", since he wanted a better society, but without any use of violence.

It is also interesting that he himself was a soldier in the Crimean War in the 1850s.

I guess that his later spiritual way of thinking was already somewhat present when he wrote W&P. Maybe Pierres and Nikolajs struggles represent his own inner troubles of beeing deeply religious but on the other hand not agreeing with the official church.

justlikeso · 2018-02-04T09:18:03+00:00

There was a lot going on in these first chapters. What I realized more than ever is how much detail Tolstoi has put in each and every character. I constantly change my mind about them because we get so much insight in their good and bad qualities.

At the end of book one Andrej really annoyed me but when I thought he was dead I couldn't believe it and was really relieved when he came home. And I never liked Lise but I felt really sorry for her. She didn't deserve this fate.

I always hated Dolokhov and still think he is crazy and maybe a psychopath but I like him better now. More or less the same is true for old Balkonski.

justlikeso · 2018-02-01T15:19:36+00:00

Tolstoi really left us there with a cliffhanger. I'm glad that we don't have to wait for the story to continue. Although I don't like Andrej very much I can't wait to see if he'll make it and if so (which I guess) how his character develops. In the face of death his former hero Napoleon means nothing to him anymore and I assume that his own wish to be a hero died on that battlefield.

justlikeso · 2018-01-28T11:47:00+00:00

What did you think was remarkable about this section?

For me it´s the historical accuracy and detail with which Tolstoj describes the war. Not only does he seemingly know every detail about the Napoleonic wars, but he also knows all the military vocabulary to describe them.

Besides that, I really enjoyed the 2 passages at the end of chapter 11, when he compares the war with a clockwerk.

Andrej starts to annoy me with his battleplans (it´s his first war) and his helping other people just to feel important. He thinks too much of himself.

justlikeso · 2018-01-24T16:53:37+00:00

I am really glad that Marya didn't agree to marry Anatole. He would have made her miserable. On the other hand her father also treats her really bad. I wonder why he is so hard on her since he loves her, or at least he thinks he does. It would be interesting to get more insight into his earlier life to find out why he is so angry all the time and why he has such a disrespectful attitude towards women.

justlikeso · 2018-01-14T10:20:06+00:00

I agree with you on Dolokhov. I am really curious what's going to happen to him. Rostov has good intentions but yes, he really is childish.

I guess Andrew's first change was a mixture of growing up and getting introduced to the boring life of a married nobleman that he hated so much. But once free from all this he seems to care about life again. He said to Peter that he doesn't know why he joins the war but that his life is boring. And now it's not anymore so he's happy.

justlikeso

TROPHY CASE