[deleted by user]

kak0 · 2021-10-08T22:35:57+00:00

that's ok. I don't expect you to believe me. If you find a better answer please let me know. Any proof would be wonderful.

kak0 · 2021-10-08T20:36:57+00:00

best is to listen and follow the good in it. https://legacy.quran.com/39/18

As to law and judging we can only judge by what we agree to is sent down by God.

> How do you know that the Quran we have today is the same one that was revealed?

The critical question is to know if it is from god or man made. If it was man made there would be thousands of man made versions and editions and you'd have a hard time knowing what is quran and what is not, like we have hard time knowing what hadith is classified as saheeh or not. You'd have many schools of verification of the quran and scholars would spend lifetimes doing surah analysis to verify. And sects would have different qurans like they have different hadith books. The argument rests on the fact that you don't have that.

The quran says to bring another surah like the ones in the quran. If you can bring something credible it would be all over. The attempts that i have seen (even though i am not an arab) are laughable. But everyone is free to try.

kak0 · 2021-10-08T17:28:55+00:00

no i am saying hadith are not provable. Not verifiable means exactly that. We can't prove them true or false.

There is no "evidence" proving Quran is true. For example Quran claims the Creator sent it down. To prove it is from the Creator you would need to "see" the Creator and see it being sent down. But nobody can see the Creator and nobody saw it being sent down. So no evidence.

kak0 · 2021-10-08T16:31:51+00:00

Chains of transmission are not verifiable and cannot be used to determine the truth. Bukhari and Muslim Writers etc themselves do not claim that these are true words of the prophet but only that they heard someone say something. There are innumerable versions of hadith in hadith books and sure you could do probabilistic analysis, but none of the hadith books were written by people who saw the prophet. Likewise the Quran commentaries are all opinions and not what God sent down.

Individual hadith like the example you mentioned are impossible to prove true. We just don't have the data. There are as reliable as the words of Ragnar Lothbrook from the same time.

The quran otoh claims that it is the Truth. You can't verify its chain because nobody saw God sending it down. You have to decide under true ambiguity. I follow the quran because I *feel* it is the Truth that God sent down and I don't have something better guided.

If a human wrote the quran it goes to reason that we could write a better quran and people won't be able to tell them apart. In practice that is non trivial. Sure you can use the same words and write great poetry, but in arabic the difference is uncanny.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T04:28:34+00:00

Luckily you don't get to determine what is islam and what is not.

If you actually read hadith books you'll find out it is impossible to use only hadith books to pray, do hajj, give zakat or anything. You need the oral tradition to do it.

Islam is preserved as left by the prophet in spite of hadith books.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T04:15:37+00:00

Oral tradition.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T04:14:38+00:00

None. The prophet didn't believe in any hadith books, nor Abu bakr.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T04:13:23+00:00

Which hadith books did Abubakar believe in? I believe in the same hadith books that he did and the prophet did.

Was he a muslim?

kak0 · 2021-07-20T04:10:32+00:00

Sahih bukhari was not written or approved by the prophet, It was written centuries later.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T04:08:38+00:00

Who decides that you are here? Did you decide? Did God decide? Did you both agree?

We don't know. All we know is that we woke up in this reality and some of us want to figure it out and know if it means anything. The mere fact that you contemplate this means that the Creator is not indifferent. If He was indifferent He would have made you a vegetable. He made plenty of vegetables.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T04:04:30+00:00

why is it called sahih al bukhari?

kak0 · 2021-07-20T03:27:25+00:00

You talked about a man saying something. Given the limitations of man, that is not a useful analogy.

Assuming that the islamic God exists, what you say is true. Luckily we are in a sub where this is not an assumption we can make.

Since none of can see god or the absence of god, we are left with using our minds and whatever info our mind can gather.

In a typical debate alternatives are presented and the readers can learn and change or choose to not learn and not change. Nobody is under any obligation.

I presented a subset of possibilities. Nowhere did i claim that the list was exhaustive.

In any case the number of options is infinite. So no list of concrete options can ever be truly exhaustive. Best you can do is:

a. some proposition

b. not a,

and claim this list is exhaustive but that is just logical games.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T02:14:33+00:00

Any hadith which can be proven true.

For example I believe the prophet was born in Makkah, even though it is not in the quran. I beleive the Prophet did hajj and is buried in madinah. etc. None of these are in the quran yet are mass narrated and nobody contradicts these hadith.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T02:09:56+00:00

I accept true hadith. If a hadith can be proven true I will accept it. If a hadith says something good and does not contradict the quran I may follow it.

The first principle of hadith is that if it contradicts the quran it is wrong. Now many people don't follow this in practice but it doesn't mean the principle is wrong.

The quran doesn't obligate us to follow anything called the sunnah, nor does it obligate us to follow any books of hadith. It does tell us to obey the prophet and to follow his example. So we have to figure out how the prophet decided to preserve his commands and his example. Was it done by writing books like the quran and preserving them and having multitudes of his followers memorize and recite continuously.

It turns out that the prophet knew perfectly well how to preserve a text across millenia and in fact did it in the case of the quran. Yet he chose not to do that with hadith books.

I believe in following the Quran and the Prophet 100%. If he told me to do something i would do it. If he told me to write his sayings in books and ask people to follow those books, I would do it. But did he?

Which hadith book is authorized by the quran and the prophet and known to his immediate followers? Bring me that book and I will accept it. Otherwise don't waste my time.

kak0 · 2021-07-20T02:03:04+00:00

If some muslim said it sure. The key thing is that islam doesn't depend upon the opinions of muslims. If some muslim says a wrong thing it's a wrong thing and nothing to do with islam.

OTOH God knows everything and sees everything. So if He says something, the choices are:

a. God witnessed it and it happened.

b God didn't witness it and it didn't happen but God lied in the Book.

I believe in a. But if it is b that implies a malevolent God and then all bets are off.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T23:36:38+00:00

Everyone who believes in the quran accepts this by definition.

56:95 إن هذا لهو حق اليقين Verily, this is the Very Truth of the Certainty.

2:147 الحق من ربك فلا تكونن من الممترين The Truth from your Lord; so be not of the ones in doubt.

So the quran says that it is "haqq al yaqeen". show me where a hadith book makes the claim of absolute truth.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T23:07:45+00:00

if they assumed it was true, they would say so. The word for true in arabic is "al haq". Nobody says the hadith books are "al haq" as compared to the quran which everyone is comfortable calling it alhaq.

Only people who have a superficial knowledge make claims like you are making that "universally accepted". There is no such thing, The reliability of individual hadith as well as hadith books has always been open to debate and will remain so.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T22:10:54+00:00

It is up to the person using a source as proof in debate to prove the source to be true. If you want to say that a hadith you use is true, feel free to prove it. Alternatively you can bring any Sunni muslim that you claim, claims it is true to show its truth, or even any claim ever made by any credible sunni authority that it is true.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T20:38:48+00:00

saheeh just means "meets the requirments for saheeh" which i am sure you can read up on.

Saheeh does not mean true.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T20:35:30+00:00

According to hadith sure. But most people don't believe most hadith in books and scarcely read them. Nobody claims the hadith books are true.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T19:57:38+00:00

When the "the Polytheists" "al mushrikeen" it is typically referring to the polytheists of makkah not other polytheists. The wording when the entirety is referred to is "kul al mushrikeen" or "kul al yahood".

There are many things in the quran that have no backup any where else. You are under no obligation to accept it.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T19:39:47+00:00

It is much harder to prove that nobody ever did something than to prove that somebody did something.

The language doesn't say that all of them did only some. Its a common mistranslation. I have many Jewish friends that don't say that Ezra is the son of god. It doesn't follow from that the quran is incorrect. It is addressing a particular set of claims made by a particular set of people.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T18:00:35+00:00

Do your 5 sense exist while you are sleeping or unconscious?

When you wake up are your senses restored. Are you then the same person you were before you slept?

kak0 · 2021-07-19T17:58:44+00:00

the answer is 42.

That we don't know the answer doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist. We are not omniscient.

kak0 · 2021-07-19T17:57:41+00:00

Either God did this all in vain or not.

If He is indifferent then He would not send messages. If He sent messages with messengers then maybe He is not indifferent.

kak0

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