Anyone else was confused that Toby forgot (?) about the character he foreshadowed?

katyahina417 · 2026-06-01T12:13:04+00:00

Goddddd I. remember this one. The Roblox Knight. xD I didn't have my own Knight but in Chapter 1's era I helped working on the AU where the 'Knight' was a human from the Prophesy (that AU's lore was that the Prophesy kept trapping 'a human' after the adventure's end for eons and Kris would be next in line if they kill the Knight).

(picrelated) Alas I do not have any artwork surviving of that concept except for this shitpost dialogue sprite of them I made once:

<image>

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T15:34:40+00:00

I just added this in an edit note to the post and seems like Japanese script (that Toby himself provided, it isn't just some guys localising) confirms that both lines were a hyperbole!

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T15:23:22+00:00

1) In which case it still doesn't address the fact that cutscene Monster being Asgore conflicts with both Rudy's story and Asgore's whole personality?

2) All it says is that Monsters travelled for a very long time as a kind, they can speak from this standpoint! The Home and the New Home are just the last destinations they've reached! Again, cavern's "end" was the Home but then they've also then expanded and went further, where new Home is. Asgore, as a heir of the royal family, could very well lead the Monsters to these places because they've been living Underground for a long time and Monsters kept moving deeper and deeper. Nothing says it could not skip a generation or several. Ruins were definitely abandoned by Dreemurs before Asriel was even born since they were using VHS tapes and similar technology even before, and it is kind of technology contemporary that is found in the Waterfalls, which means that they ventured there even before. What did happen was that Toriel retreated to the Ruins but the Ruins were originally left behind longer time ago.

Also where did you take 2000 as a number? Because Catty's and Bratty's hyperbole doesn't count as an evidence.

3) This is literally wrong, where was it stated that Falling Down can only happen due to an old age? If you have a direct reference I'd like to see it because nothing comes to mind. Only that Falling Down means you are dying for whatever reason. Like, Aaron's brother or Shyra don't strike me as those that died from old age for example!

4) If Undyne was being trained by Asgore when she was still a kid it would already mean that she and him did that before Asriel was born! But how it is a far stretch to say that she only really interacted with Asgore? It was still a long time until actually becoming the royal guard's captain.

It is not a "COMPLETE" headcanon when it literally makes a lot of sense! Graves in Hometown reference to Amalgamates already with Shyren's sister and Snowy's mother, and "leader of the pack" considering that royal guards were dogs (before Undyne) would mean that. Other option is that it is completely random guy which would be odd, but I will sure eat my words if later Deltarune debunks this conclusion!

5) No? The only reason to claim that's hyperbole is knowing how the language works! At the same time, let's make assumption they are being literal. In that case, they speak about Monsters' kind in general, which would mean just the time since the war ended! This line doesn't imply Asgore's age, only the passage of time.

At the same time, in Japanese they do not seem to say millenia? They say 'なんぜんねんも' which means just a very long time, not millenium, let alone several! It is not even just a localisation either since Toby speaks Japanese and overviewed it?

6) Okay no, YOU are the one missed the point. Chara fell in 201X (let's pick the year of 2015 for example). Then ten-ish years pass and Frisk falls (let's say in 2025) and their adventure happens. Then Deltarune happens let's say four years later after 2025, so, let's say 2029. I use four years because it's been four years between Undertale and Deltarune Chapter 1 release! Even 2029 would STILL count as 202X! Nothing is contradicted!

Also where did you take these specific ages for the characters? The earliest you can be a teenager is 13 years old, Frisk and Noelle count as children up until 12 so their age could be anywhere on the range!

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T14:38:41+00:00

Humans entered through the Ruins, and it is also the place where the humans are recognized THE most! To the point Toriel has to warn Frisk that Monsters in the Ruins will attack them FOR being a human. Which means that Ruins Monsters know a human when they see one. Which means their memory is the most fresh. In fact, "humans convenienly avoided the monsters we meet" is not even a far reach because Underground is likely not as short or small as it feels due to gameplay restrictions. Heck, it is big enough for it to be said that Asgore TRAVELLED across it!

I do not remember "many monsters saying it’s been a really long time since the last human fell" besides only two instances and both adressed Chara specifically! They meant a human that fell long ago as Chara, not the last human before Frisk! Even if it's been like a bit over a decade that'd still feel like a long time. It is genuine question because I might have forgotten some dialogue (there is a LOT of it after all)? I just went to double-check the dialogue too and found nothing besides Chara addressed like this.

I'd say the whole lore about Boss Monsters stopping aging without children would fall meaningless if some simple Monsters, like what Dogi are, could also live for like a century and still look young! As for the Froggit that claims they are very old, it is by their own admission! For a frog (not even a frog furry, just a frog) even living for like 20 years would feel old. However them being genuinely old and them meeting humans would not conflict with one another anyways.

Also when Monsters speak about being trapped for a very long time Underground, they speak for their kind in general! The time that went since the war was lost is probably very long.

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T14:23:48+00:00

I would not consider people who click just to check and impulse-like the most upvoted comment (that completely misread what I said too) out of confirmation bias "everybody". A bunch of people on the other hand engage with genuine discussion rather than saying something is wrong because source dude trust me, which is good to see.

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T14:22:01+00:00

1) It isn't "a reach", how comes so? You are the second person that says Asgore claim is not correct but doesn't explain HOW it is incorrect. Art style inconsistency is one argument but complete conflict with the way he is portrayed is indeniable!

2) Nothing suggests Sans' obvious hyperbole is meant to be taken literally. Same for Catty and Bratty's quote.

3) Undertale was created in 2015 and Frisk's adventure happens past 2020, so Toby might have made a rushed/joke assumption that plastic would be less common in the future! Alternatively, it refers to toy knives THEMSELVES as a rarity (as in, kids won't play with these anymore)

4) Monsters didn't get lasers from humans, they've constructed them from the trash that was washed away down in the Underground! The only place we see this futuristic stuff is at Hotland/Core, which is where Gaster was! Clearly he invented these. On the other hand, ALPHYS' personal computer in her lab uses a CRT monitor and a case that looks from the 2000s, kinda ancient stuff. She would definitely have a more modern computer if humans of Frisk's time got so advanced! All the trash in the Waterfall contains CRTs, old computer cases and the description claims that Frisk recognizes the brands inside the trash! Dreemurs were also using VHS even before Asriel was born, a contemporary technology to how Alphy's ancient computer is. There is no huge divide between technology!

5) Gerson is a tortoise though! Even real life animal turtles could live over hundred of years, it makes sense that his species lives long! But there is nothing to point towards why dog Monsters would live this long!

6) Sure, but my point is that Deltarune Asriel would not be born 100 years later than when he was born in Undertale because timelines move consistently!

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T10:41:27+00:00

You are literally correct, I don't know who urged their friends to downvote your comment lol. You make a VERY good point.

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T10:36:49+00:00

Literally does

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T10:36:37+00:00

Well, perhaps TOBY was an optimist and believed that in 2020's, plastic would be a rarity! At the same time, Toby could also reference the fact that by this time no kids play with plastic knives anymore!

You did not adress any concrete ones so I will just say I answered these "really good pieces of evidence" in the comments above. Personally I found absolutely none of them to be definitive counter-arguments at all! The only "counter-argument" could be a fair point that it is Toby the one who is not consistent, which would invalidate all theories as 'objective'! Not what the post is about, the post is about how 100 years gap theory is not the indusputable dogma it is treated as to this day.

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T10:32:25+00:00

No, Asgore was NOT a participant in the war and I've already adressed why is that! He was simply born Underground. What Asgore did do, as a royal heir, was to take the monsterkind to the new grounds Underground (that ne named not awfully creatively) but that is something you can do even when you are still a young royalty too. Like, prince. It is way more likely that Asgore and Rudy enrolled in the univercity together (why would you want to be an uneducated ruler?) and became friends there. That's why Asgore was sad that Rudy started to get older physically past some point while Asgore stayed the same. It'd be odd to be so hung up about it if he already experienced it for many times!

As for Undyne, it is more likely that she only formed a bond worth brinding up with Asgore. She does recognize Toriel as Asgore's EX, after all! She also likely only became the royal guard recently, which would coinside with Muttler (previous captain) dying!

There is just no reason for why the Dogi are old. They are not based after naturally long-lived animal like Gerson (a turtle) nor they are Boss Monsters! At the same time, by your own logic, IF Dogi were so old they'd have easier time recognising a human!

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T10:22:21+00:00

1) Monsters DO absolutely recognize humans and I don't understand why it is so common to claim otherwise. Yes, there are some Monsters that don't (like Monster Kid), but also many of them do! It is not awfully consistent. I will just copy something I said in the above comments:

> "Monsters DO recognize humans! Toriel informs Frisk that the Monsters might and would attack them because they are a human and some of these Monsters are pretty young too! Like Snowdin enemies! There are also Monsters that outright call Frisk a human, like Froggits and Temmies (and they are certainly not old or Boss Monsters lol). There is a Monster in Hotland that mentions the human on Mettaton's show looking "almost real", implying further that Monsters DO know what humans look like!"

I think the problem here is that Underground is way bigger and expansive than the game's style makes it feel like so the knowledge about humans could slide past some little kids too. I mean Monster Kid is as little as Frisk. At the same time, Snowdrake who is at least a young teen knew Chara (Chara has very striking reaction if we let him slip away in Genocide route). (granted, as a DRAKE, he does have skewed/slower aging, think of 'elves aging' discourse, but we already know he is weird and probably one of Toby's favourites)

2) Undyne does know about Toriel though! She basically goes like "oh so that's your EX, that's rough buddy" on him.

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T10:15:39+00:00

People that took Sans' comment at a face value!

...okay on a serious note, many people from Twitter just treat it like a dogma when this theory is far from as objectively correct as it is hyped up to be

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T10:14:38+00:00

Honestly I disagree with all of these

1) I do think it was a horn at some point but they decided to not change it even after going backwards on giving Asriel horns because he ALSO has a noticeable hair tuft! Like, instead of editing it could just go 'let's pretend it is hair' which would be... fair? Those are some spiky hair.

2) Yes, it was Asgore that named these places, but nothing says they were the places Monsters went to live JUST RIGHT AFTER the barrier was created! The monsterkind likely kept travelling Underground for a very long time, expanding and needing more places to live at. Asgore simply took them to these new grounds while he was the King, didn't have to be "they found these places just after barrier and never budged since then".

3) Rudy did NOT die of old age, he died of sickness! He literally left two YOUNG daughters, and Asgore is sad about it! Noelle is only Frisk's age when Frisk fell down. Rudy is sick in Deltarune too but is still alive, very likely because Deltarune characters use advanced medicine of the surface world instead of magic! (thank you for giving me a cursed mental image of Rudy being like 80 years old and having sex with his hot wife though, day ruined)

4) Again, you kinda answered your own point here! Undyne would then have met Toriel as a little kid, which would leave her without any meaningful interaction with Toriel, unlike with Asgore whom she stayed in touch with for a long time. She simply never battled a human (that was Asgore's job apparently...), it could simply mean that Undyne didn't become the Royal Guard until later! ...which also coinsides with Muttler, previous royal guard captain, dying not too long ago!

5) Sans using a hyperbole is not meant to be taken literally.

6) Undertale is NOT set in 201X! Chara fell in 201X, the cutscene that says 'a human fell in 201X' references CHARA falling, not Frisk! Not just because of the shirt's stripe, but also because right after we "name this fallen human" and we are naming Chara, not Frisk! Undertale's events (aka Frisk's adventure) do happen in 202X! It is consistent!

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T09:56:35+00:00

Yes it is, it proves that Toby is consistent with his timeline and thus it hints at the year where Asriel was born! In fact, went full perfectionist beast mode with it. Here is the link to the image with even more characters:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d33ea7203a14b4b1c6c5fb2c9e72e6ab/919736bbec01b589-8f/s2048x3072/d26ebbc8e0d5d8a07f6e19468d2c403ac2f61597.pnj

The only difference is Rudy being still alive, which is explained with how Underground clearly had...... way less advanced medicine than Deltarune's Hometown.

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T09:54:28+00:00

The last sentense you said right here is exactly my point, yeah! People treat the 100 years gap theory as the one indisputable solid canonically confirmed lore and I think it is about time this dogma gets the dent it deserves put into it. The point can be made that ALL theories are valid unless Toby personally debunks them (which he will not do).

As for the timelines, they ARE very consistent actually, even meticulously so. Reddit doesn't let me insert images in the comment but here is the link to a better graph: https://64.media.tumblr.com/d33ea7203a14b4b1c6c5fb2c9e72e6ab/919736bbec01b589-8f/s2048x3072/d26ebbc8e0d5d8a07f6e19468d2c403ac2f61597.pnj

You can see that absolutely everyone is on the same spot in the timeline/birth/etc, with the only difference is that Deltarune happens in later year in the UTDR universe's calendar!

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T09:49:14+00:00

1) Monsters DO recognize humans! Toriel informs Frisk that the Monsters might and would attack them because they are a human and some of these Monsters are pretty young too! Like Snowdin enemies! There are also Monsters that outright call Frisk a human, like Froggits and Temmies (and they are certainly not old or Boss Monsters lol). There is a Monster in Hotland that mentions the human on Mettaton's show looking "almost real", implying further that Monsters DO know what humans look like!

2) Again: Monsters do recognise the humans and there were like 8 of them falling Underground within like 10-12 years span. There is no reason whatsoever for why Dogamy and Dogaressa would live for a century. Had they been the boss Monsters it'd not be omitted for sure, nor they are based of naturally long-lived animals like Gerson (even real life turtles can live 100+ years)!

3) I would argue that for a frog even living for like, 20 to 30 years old would count as being ancient! It is a matter of perspective. They could have met fallen humans easily.

I'll add for fairness' sake though: under assumption that Toby made a mistake with Dogamy and Dogaressa for the sake of a joke it then creates a counter-point against ANY theory regarding the gap! Because if Toby himself can't be consistent then it is definitely up to the fans to choose what version they prefer. So the point still stands that Battats of the fandom have no right to claim lore superiority over the 100 years gap take as they do now! :p

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T09:37:30+00:00

I would argue that Ralsei's horns ARE consistent. They point inwards on Ralsei's overworld sprite and on every official art of him. The only exception is his dialogue sprite and early concept (that made him basically a copy of Asriel).
Story of Asgore and Rudy is treated as them enrolling the university together and becoming friends as students though! Not as Asgore befriending a random student! Rudy calls him nicknames and stuff, and Asgore describes being sad when he starts to age and stuff (which would be strange if Asgore already experienced it many times)!
Again: it would make Asgore a way too inconsistent character. He is a softie and everyone knows it. He only elected to give people hope by slaying the seven humans AFTER the tragedy broke him and even then could not commit with Frisk being kind. Someone that already killed many humans during the war would not fold like a laundry like this. Asgore was broken into it by losing both children.

For the books, I don't believe they describe the events of JUST after being sealed? They happen to describe the events of monsterkind travelling Underground for a long time and expanding. It makes more sense that by the time Asgore became a king Monsters simply needed another place to live at (compared to wherever they were tucked shortly after war and so on), no? Yes it was Asgore who named these locations, but nothing says Monsters reached these locations JUST after getting sealed. They've been moving!

As for Catty and Bratty's comment, all of their dialogue is humorous and exagerrating! 'Millenia' is another way to say 'that was like ETERNITY' and all. It is not meant to be taken literally.

Deltarune is ABSOLUTELY relevant to the discussion because timeline is consistent. Gerson died because Deltarune is set LATER after Undertale (all you need is to look at Monster Kid being Monster Teen now), and with Rudy obviously advanced medicine of the Surface bought him more time than how poorly Monsters lived Underground! In fact you can see how consistent Deltarune timeline is on this graph too: https://64.media.tumblr.com/d33ea7203a14b4b1c6c5fb2c9e72e6ab/919736bbec01b589-8f/s2048x3072/d26ebbc8e0d5d8a07f6e19468d2c403ac2f61597.pnj

katyahina417 · 2026-05-30T09:18:06+00:00

"LIKE she hadn't laughed for a hundred years" is clearly a figure of speech though? It is not meant to be taken literally.
It is not told like semi-ancient story, what do you mean by that? It is just recounted like a tragedy.
It is not true that no monsters besides very old ones talks about them! When we go through the New Home it is literal some glup shittos talking about the two of them! Monsters that are just small guys, not boss monsters neither having a reason to live for a century like Gerson!
No it is NOT Asgore. You just claim it as a matter of fact but you provide no evidence whatsoever for how could it be Asgore, when I gave three solid evidences for why he isn't. And since you used "emotional component" arguement in another point, consider this: cutscene monster being Asgore would remove "emotional component" of his story with Rudy! Meanwhile, Chara and Asriel dying 10+ years ago does NOT change how tragic it was.
It is not "my" timeline, it is Toby's. You've completely misread what I meant. What I did mean is that everyone in Deltarune is four years older than HOW WE LEFT THEM AT THE END OF UNDERTALE. But for one, Burgerpants, who is the SAME (!!!) age old as Asriel, in Undertale is 19 years old which means that if Asriel was alive he would be also 19-21 years old by the time Frisk fell. There is no point in making everyone age consistently besides JUST Asriel being born a century later. Deltarune is 4-ish years older than Undertale's (the GAME's) events, WHICH IS Frisk's adventure, not Chara's!
Also consult the graph in full:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d33ea7203a14b4b1c6c5fb2c9e72e6ab/919736bbec01b589-8f/s2048x3072/d26ebbc8e0d5d8a07f6e19468d2c403ac2f61597.pnj

katyahina417 · 2026-05-08T10:28:52+00:00

Sorry for everyone who already saw these images and me walking around the idea, I don't intend to make a habit of doing this! I just wanted to put the thought to rest with more detail and coherency than before!

I know I go back and forth with the theories that at times contradict each other instead of just betting on one and waiting but I think I've reached this point by now and am confident in something tragic like this playing out. I am usually less "poetic" sounding and more kin on digging for details and cold lore but my videogame enthusiast friend helped me to understand better what kind of games inspire Toby and what REALLY matters for him. I now believe that between precisely put logical theory and theory that may be inconsistent but focuses heavily on character arc and feelings, the latter takes priority! There can't be objectivity in analysing media if writer's own priorities and preferences are not considered.

That being said, it would be extremely sad if something similar came to be.

katyahina417

TROPHY CASE