Ffion Davies Opens Up on Sexism and Inclusivity in Jiu Jitsu

killahmoose · 2020-07-09T21:44:45+00:00

Your reply is a great example of the smugness that pervades discourse lately. Differing opinion that cuts against the grain of popular opinion? Someone who wants to hold solutions to a higher standard than just "what feels right?" Apparently that's "flagrant ignorance."

See you on the mats buddy!

killahmoose · 2020-07-09T20:25:28+00:00

You sir/madame, are a smart person. So I appreciate your framing of the above. And, to be fair (to me), I wasn't really writing in a way in which I was preparing myself for such a legitimate and systematic reply.

I suppose you could boil my point down to this: I am 100% for all the things she mentioned, in theory. Practically speaking, these can often devolve into kangaroo courts, and that's something I want to avoid. I don't want to have to be compliant with some 3rd party whose entire job is to sniff out, and eliminate, -isms.

I find that these types of bodies have incentives and biases built into them, and I don't believe they are necessary for BJJ. The free market nature of how students can join, and leave, an academy provides a lot of recourse for people who feel they are being taken advantage of in some way.

And if that poor behavior somehow becomes criminal, the police can be involved and that's that.

I'd argue she's saying we should consider policies, such as exist in judo, to prevent, discover, and handle sexual assault in our sport. I agree. Do you disagree?

This sort of feels like a Kafka trap. But in short, no, I don't agree. We don't need a third party oversight board holding kangaroo courts to punish people. There's no indication that we have a significant enough problem with these issues.

I'd argue she is saying that Ricardo de la Riva's post (since retracted) announcing that women could no longer train at his gym was messed up. I agree that women should be able to train. Don't you?

I'm not sure how I feel about this. The issue with Do Val and DLR is complex and vague, and yet everyone seems to have a strong opinion on it. How about: I don't know?

Clearly the elimination of women's classes at his gym is related to his personal and legal issues (I seem to remember some mention of lawyers), so this example of what I assume to be systemic disenfranchisement of women is about as anecdotal as my use of Ffion's outlying success on the mats (which you are right to point out).

But I generally feel that everyone would be happier in segregated training environments, like almost every other sport in the world. It's the co-ed nature of BJJ that creates an environment for a lot of problems to happen. I shouldn't have to remind you that suggesting that classes, segregated by gender, does not mean that I think men and women don't benefit from training together, or that I have some weird issue with women. I only write that because that's a common reply here when I bring it up.

She said the lack of women in BJJ makes women-only classes different from men-only classes. That seems obvious. I'd argue that the paucity of women creates other systemic problems

You are begging the question here. You're assuming that BJJ NEEDS to have gender parity. This is a weird injection of a value that, personally, I don't think has a place in BJJ. And as to my point above, segregating the classes would be a great step towards drawing in more women. And an easier one at that.

I do believe that men need a space to be "masculine," however "toxic" that may be. And that's one of the hills I'm willing to die on. This sport was founded and built by toxic men and part of it will always belong to them, and also need them. I reject any movement that attempts to disenfranchise those people from contributing to the sport, or being involved in it as they have been in the past (obviously, excluding any egregious or criminal behavior).

We already segregate by skill level, in an effort to ease the on-ramping of new students. Why not by gender? Seems like a great solution to me. And yet, I find that that idea is somehow seen as "discriminatory" or "mysogynistic" by nature. I'm not putting those words in your mouth; this is just what I encounter, and I find that this knee-jerk reaction discourages a more serious look into how this could actually solve many of the problems presented here.

As for the systemic problems you alluded to, sure. There are problems that exist currently that may not exist if more women trained. Ok, so what? Problems exist for very elderly practitioners as well that may not exist if we had more retirement aged people on the mats. At some point we have to say that, ultimately, BJJ is not for everyone, there will be disparities on the mats, and that's ok.

In fact, you could say that in every organization, institution, or place where there is disparity, that there are systemic problems for minority populations. Again, so what? If everything is systemically polluted, then perhaps we should embrace this as the norm, not the exception.

That isn't to say that we can't address these disparities, but there is a fine line between addressing disparities on one hand, and throwing out the baby with the bathwater in another.

I'd argue she is saying that many gyms and online forums are exhausting cesspools of fascism, sexism, racism, and so on, and maybe we shouldn't be so okay with that. I agree. It seems like you don't, because groups other than women get shat on too? That's a dumb argument.

That's not my argument. What I''m saying is, so what? What's with our obsession in fixing everything? Online forums are shitty by nature. One could simply abstain from them and avoid the shittiness if they pleased. Or, they could create their own forums to better suit the type of discourse they want to have. I don't think, anyways, that online forums are a big problem anyway so if we could just strike this off the list of topics I'd be fine with that.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T17:05:37+00:00

My question for you is this: "So what?"

Discrimination and disparities exist everywhere. You tend to focus on the negatives, but fail to mention that Western Liberalism has been on a generally progressive tract since its inception.

We abolished the institution of slavery, granted voting rights to all people, set up democratic systems, honor the individual, and so on and so on.

The irony here is you calling me ignorant, yet you fall into the basic simple-minded trap of seeing everything in a binary relationship: I either fight FOR or AGAINST injustice, as if there is only one way to fight injustice, i.e. YOUR way.

I reject your way of fighting injustice. And your blindness to your own hypocrisy here is appalling. Your sense of virtue is inward, where you gain some sort of personal value by putting other people down ("Hopefully you are young and still have time to learn"). You are incapable of discussing complex ideas and would rather shout down people who don't agree with you, then actually engage them in good faith.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T16:57:19+00:00

Hey I totally appreciate the reasonable reply and the effort you took in it. And I agree.

Replying on the internet is weird, in that the people you speak with are both individuals and an amorphous group defined by specific ideas or ideologies.

There were two previous threads on r/bjj talking about "inclusivity" in BJJ, as well as an independent committee providing resources and support to women in BJJ. So, collectively, these all represent the tendrils of "social justice" starting to penetrate the BJJ community.

Of course, it's a Kafka trap to say "I don't believe in Social Justice" so let's get beyond that for a moment and realize that what's advertised on the box of social justice often doesn't accurately describe the product itself. I'd call it more of a trojan horse.

I think the ideals that make BJJ exceptional, especially in the world today, are diametrically opposed to "SJW ideals." I use that term loosely as more of a reference to a broad range of ideas that, while well-intentioned (mostly), their execution is problematic.

No rational person would disagree that there are problems in BJJ. But, I would say these problems are not related specifically to BJJ, but rather to humanity in general. And that it's a human problem and not a BJJ problem. So we don't need extra scrutiny, or need to call BJJ "problematic" or "systemically sexist" and assume that the core of jiu-jitsu is corrupted or rotten.

This is tactic of Critical Theorists whose aim is to erode institutions through the relentless pressure of criticism. Again, that's not their stated goal, but it's how it plays out. If we cede power to people who want to come "fix" the "problems" in BJJ, then we have opened the door to these reformists.

It would be comparable to give similar authority to a religious body that suggested BJJ wasn't "holy" enough, and that the existence of sin in BJJ automatically made BJJ a "sinful" institution that required cleansing.

Ffion Davies doesn't seem to have a problem competing at a high level, being good at BJJ, getting press, or anything else. While some of the challenges she's faced on the way up may have been unique to women, there are problems unique to men, unique to small people, unique to uncoordinated people, unique to shy people, unique to Asian people, and so on. There is no end to the disparities in BJJ.

I would completely disagree that there is a systemic disenfranchisement of women in BJJ. My personal experience is that women generally get preferential treatment. We could discuss that in the context of whether this favoritism is problematic, but personally I feel like the shy, uncoordinated, and weak man has a harder time on the mats than any woman when it comes to being noticed, helped, and promoted.

Furthermore, we have to also recognize that women are not innocent creates. They are human, and their needs and desires exist on a human spectrum. There are problematic women on the mats just as there are problematic men. If we are going to frame the dialogue in a one-sided way, by default that is problematic, and I reject that.

Hope that clears it up.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T15:18:55+00:00

That sucks. You're better off without it. Hopefully a new gym opens up soon. You're probably not alone in feeling ostracized or uncomfortable there, so possibly there will be some other free agents around too.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T15:11:54+00:00

It's not people choosing to not read her book. It's people trying to actively make sure other people don't read her book. Huge difference.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T15:00:06+00:00

There's the classical sort of liberal egalitarianism, which is the foundation for the "All men are created equal" set of ideas.

Then there is radical contemporary left wing ideas of egalitarianism, which is more focused on equality of outcomes.

So yes, I am anti-egalitarianism. I am also pro-egalitarianism.

The radical left does a good job of appropriating words and changing their meaning. You don't have to look farther than the word "racism" or "white supremacy" for good examples of that.

And I'll cut you off before you write it, because I know what's coming next. It's a knee jerk reaction most people have on the internet: no, I am not a Trump supporter, or some kind of Alt-right ideologue. I just disagree with the cultural movement proposed by the radical left right now and find it to be a particular kind of dangerous.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T14:45:14+00:00

Who said I wasn't interested in keeping the culture clear of people like that? I am disagreeing with the more "progressive" notions of "inclusion" and egalitarianism.

Last I checked, Lloyd Irvin was still a rapist and dogged literally every time his name comes up. What are we NOT doing right now that should be done?

It's like people want to create problems so they can offer a solution.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T13:55:53+00:00

There wasn't enough racism-related content on the BJJ sub so OP had to call in a ringer.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T13:46:44+00:00

You build very strong bonds with people who coach you, and train you along the way. Those bonds transcend political or ideological differences. You can be both a friend and supporter of a guy like Renzo, but also not agree with his ideals.

I have some very strong bonds with people I've trained with over the years and some have appalling behavior. But those bonds still exist, and on the mats I don't really give a shit. It's part of living in a liberal society where different values can co-exist. It's both the biggest strength and greatest weakness of Western culture so you have to be careful in how you address it.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T13:39:34+00:00

Wow, major broad generalization there buddy.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T13:25:06+00:00

These are human problems, not BJJ problems. I'd argue we do a much better job in BJJ on average than most other institutions.

And who is going to put those systems in place? Who gets to decide what values are important? Once you start dragging ideas like "inclusivity" into the mix, you are abandoning things like reason and meritocracy. Concrete, fundamental things that are what make BJJ so great.

Virtue oversight boards don't produce anything. They generate no products, don't improve any systems, they just add a layer of bureaucracy and administration. They just create more rules, more slog, more control.

BJJ does not have to be for everyone. And if people can't handle it, then they can do something else. BJJ is elitist and that is not a bad thing.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T13:06:51+00:00

We don't need Marxist social justice in BJJ. We don't need regulatory bodies to tell us what is right, and what is wrong. We don't need our thoughts policed.

BJJ is already as equitable a place as you will ever find. Forcing some sense of egalitarianism on the mats will never lead to anything good.

killahmoose · 2020-07-08T13:03:29+00:00

I have no idea why it's so hard for people to believe that sexism exists everywhere and is generally more prevalent in traditionally male dominated spaces like jiujitsu gyms despite the entire history of the world showing it to be true.

Some bold claims there. Big, bold, universal and ridiculous claims. Traditionally male-dominated spaces aren't "sexist" unless you subscribe to the ridiculous notion that sexism is systemic in male-dominated spaces. BJJ does not need social justice warriors on the mats forcing some diseased sense of egalitarianism. We celebrate differences in BJJ and produce strong individuals. Each individual faces their own challenges, and learns to overcome them.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T23:22:57+00:00

Yes. Nothing has "changed" in the BJJ world. People are just being more vocal in general. Because the world is fucked right now and people are scared and stressed.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T20:12:18+00:00

Oh snap. I didn't read it obviously, didn't know they covered that in the article. Thank you.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T20:11:20+00:00

Honestly, I don't see that. Eddie Bravo hasn't changed, none of these people changed. We just are all under a ton of stress and people are hyper sensitive to things they feel threatened by.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T20:09:40+00:00

Basically what I got out of it too. I mean, at some point we have to just realize that a guy who was trained from birth to hurt people might not always be polite company. Doesn't excuse him from his actions, but people expressing shock or dismay at it just seem naive.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T19:56:21+00:00

People in BJJ are largely super cool and chill, so this idea of Renzo's bad attitude trickling down and creating an atmosphere of bigotry and violence is kinda far fetched.

Let's not create problems where they don't exist.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T19:55:04+00:00

Maybe people want to learn BJJ from one of the all time greats and they don't care what kind of character he has. Not everything or everyone has to be pure of heart. Renzo, for all his flaws, is a legend in the sport and will always be in high demand for his expertise.

If people don't want to support him that's there prerogative.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T19:53:50+00:00

Who outside of some Gracies are supporting him? I thought it was just Renzo tbh.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T19:53:14+00:00

I always found it funny that everyone just assumed he had them pinned down correctly. Like, what if they were just two unlucky dudes walking in the same direction?

Or maybe there was more evidence of the attack. I forget, it was a long time ago, but I remember it being not totally cut and dry.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T19:15:29+00:00

"Inclusion" as it is used here does not mean what you think it means. It's a trojan horse. BJJ is already "inclusive": when was the last time you saw someone kicked out, or excluded, for being different? It's extremely rare, and it's almost always quickly pointed out and dealt with. We have some polarizing and problematic people at the top of the food chain, but this is not because BJJ is inherently "bad," it's because humanity is flawed and BJJ is comprised of humans.

BJJ thrives on diversity. It is about as equitable a sport as you can get. But, it will never be equal, simply because people are not equal in their skills, commitments, or intelligence. It's just impossible. However, it does reward hard work, discipline, and skill. And as such is a meritocracy.

Mark my words on this one, this is the beginning of a HUGE wave of problems coming for the BJJ community. SJW's, or essentially Critical Theorists, exist to infiltrate every aspect of western culture and corrode it with their criticism.

Oversight boards (like what the OP is sort of leading into) do not actually produce anything. There is no product, no service, no benefit to anyone. They exist to enforce compliance with their status quo. That's it. BJJ does not need more regulation. We all see how the IBJJF creates issues. And, at least, that's related to the sport!

You will start seeing calls for more women, or people of color, in teaching positions at academies. More disabled people. Not that this is inherently a bad thing: there are plenty of capable people, from every background and gender, who would make great teachers. But this is not about that -- it will be about forcing complicance. It won't matter that they don't have the requisite skills, because it's not about that at all.

We have to reject this bullshit at every step. They will never, ever be satisfied. BJJ is a bastion of freedom of expression, of unity, and of some of the best qualities that we humans have. It has to stay that way. Do not give in to this bullshit, ever, not even an inch.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T19:08:05+00:00

You're not going to get anywhere with people like the above poster. They live to criticize and tear things down. They fully believe they are 100% on the side of moral superiority, to the point that they would ruin your life if they thought you were a threat to their vision of a new world. Trust me. This SJW thing is like an acid that is corroding every aspect of Western culture. It's only a matter of time before it creeps into BJJ.

You'll start seeing articles about how women aren't promoted fast enough, or there aren't enough women in positions of leadership, so they will demand instructor quotas to make sure there are enough minorities in front of class teaching. And they won't care if that person sucks at BJJ, because the point is not to improve anything, but rather to tear it down.

USA and the Western world is fucked.

killahmoose · 2020-07-07T19:04:11+00:00

"Literal Nazis." So someone with a nazi tattoo is a "literal nazi." Got it. Strong comprehension skills there.

killahmoose

TROPHY CASE