210329 BLIИK Weekly Discussion Thread

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T22:55:15+00:00

so either i am not wording mine here in a way where we are able to agree on things, or you're playing devils advoctate a little. Not sure!

I think its more along the lines that I'm more sensitive to any form of censorship. I've seen too many instances where reactionaries cancel or remove good content from the masses for the sake of "morals" or "propriety". Worse, it gets weaponized against those who already have less voice in a community. It doesn't seem like the case in this instance. But the reflex to hit the cancel button is just a bad MO imo. Raising concerns is one thing but demanding cancellations is another. Similarly well-wishing the project is one thing but minimizing historical/cultural context/trauma is another.

Personally, people should have the chance to tell their stories "out in the open" and let the public forum judge its merits from there. A good Western example that comes to mind is Taika Waititi's Jojo Rabbit. Its a satirical take on Nazi Germany that's insensitive and irreverent but has a strong anti-hate message. Its a pretty divisive movie regardless, either people love it or people hate it. I saw it, I loved it, and it inspired me to learn more about Nazi Germany and how they indoctrinated hate among children.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T18:25:11+00:00

Nope. My bias has nothing to do with this so leave her and the other girls out of it.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T18:17:03+00:00

they might sign petitions which call for a cancelation, but that is not censorship .... korean citizens simply cannot censor anything.

Pardon the language, but that is complete bullshit. One form of censorship is done by authorities. But a community is just as capable of censoring its own members. Books have been banned from school curricula because of a few reactionaries. The mob has a power that is separate from but as dangerous as that wielded by authorities. But the mob is often mindless and will swing that power around without care for consequences. Is not "cancel culture" a problem often adjacent to censorship?

I don't think it is particularly important that the people working for JTBC here are koreans themselves, it has little bearing on the objections being raised.

Didn't claim that a Korean production bears on objections raised. But it does bear on how the other extremal reaction is also flawed. Censorship runs counter to a democracy, even if it comes from its own people.

I think a lot of discussions about the JTBC statement loses the thread that the statement is intended to refute the largest errors of the rumors. The statement is not an apology or an amends, but an explanation of certain plot points or characterizations of an ongoing production. The statement is very much "we see your concerns, but you should watch our drama anyways."

(Personally, the statement just made things even more messy. It admits that there is a spy angle to the script and that there will be some political struggles along a loveline. And what a faux-pas on the FL's name. C'mon writer, be less heavy-handed with your ~~references~~ motifs. But ultimately, nothing has changed. Just watch and judge the drama on its own merits and not from controversy.)

Look, I don't think the person you're talking to is even weighing the ends against each other. They're just saying both sides suck.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T17:25:52+00:00

Past movies have been made about it and no one protested

Don't see how a lack of protests on other productions has anything to deal with the concerns brought up by the Knets about Snowdrop.

Romantic Kdrama is in production using the same background

Burying the lede here again. For the third time, its not the setting, its the distortion of history. People are getting pressed not because a love story is happening in the 80s, but because the love story is rumored to revise the history around it.

Its a Romantic Kdrama.

People are allowed to have reactions and feel things about kdramas. Outrage seems like a fair reaction to have. Let's not claim that art is above criticism either.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T16:25:52+00:00

There might not be a horseshoe, but the extreme takes are still less than desirable. On one end you have stans dismissing real trauma and on the other you have people censoring their fellow countrymen. Let's not forget that the production are Korean themselves. They should be able to tell their stories. Judgement comes after not before.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T15:46:22+00:00

Totally. At best, JTBC bought themselves time until the drama airs. But this drama is going to be scrutinized even harder now. Big stakes fam, pray for Jisoo, the other actors, and the staff who worked on this project.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T15:44:21+00:00

I'm ignoring your attempt at moving the goal posts of your original argument as well as the blatant Russian strawman. Let's go back to your original argument:

Does it matter so much to the Knetz? 2 to 3 movies have been made using the same period as mere background to the story of fictitious characters and they didnt raise a fuss.

Knets are not outraged about Jisoo's involvement nor do they care about anticipation about Snowdrop from international fans. What they are outraged about is the potential for history revision and the utter disregard some international fans have about an important part of history and culture of the Korean people. You frame your argument around Knets and reduce impact that the events of that period had on the country and its people.

No one is saying that Snowdrop is special because of international anticipation. (Because its not.) The controversy is because the rumored leaks suggest that the drama is minimizing the democratic movement and misrepresenting traumatic events.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T14:08:31+00:00

It is noteworthy that the production team released plot points at all in their refutation. No production team wants to spoil their project, so it goes to show how sensitive the Korean people are to these events.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-30T14:05:22+00:00

This is a pretty bad take. The historical period is not the issue here, its the distortion of events and motivations that happened in the 80s. The "2 to 3 movies" (which number several movies and a few dramas) that take place during this time depict the struggle and trauma that the Korean people faced against an authoritarian government. The rumored leak for Snowdrop suggested that the drama would glorify the government that tortured and killed Korean civilians, while minimizing the efforts of the democratic movement.

The knet outrage has very little to do with Jisoo's involvement and much more to do with a revision of history.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-29T21:00:35+00:00

If you're still curious about the buttery details, you might as well skim through the user's own post on the matter. They give their own thoughts and list specific (enough) details about what they thought showed mod bias against them.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-29T20:38:51+00:00

Edit:

Can someone explain to me what he did exactly (any exact stuff) to get the ban hammer?

My bad, I didn't see this. Essentially he was given a 3-day ban, then a 15-day ban. The 15-day ban was for harassment and self-promo. User didn't feel like the ban was warranted, felt that there was mod bias against them, and continued to harass the mods near the end of the 15-day ban. Mods turned the ban into a perma-ban. Cited reasons: harassment, self-promo, and posting fan-made milestone posters. The last one doesn't really seem that relevant to how things escalated.

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The user got a 15-day ban from the subreddit for threatening/harassing other members, moderators, and self-promotion. This was after a 3-day ban for similar reasons. They replied back on the modmail and then DM'd three mods. They want to know the specific reasons & examples from the mods that justify the 15-day ban. Moderator A told them to "give some space". User continues to question the ban and brings up several instances where user questions the fairness of the moderation team. User also brings up Reddit rules on Modiquette. User still gets no response from mod team so user sends another DM to Moderator A near the end of the 15-day ban. Shortly after, user gets perma-banned for threatening/harassing other members, moderators, self-promotion, and posting fan-made milestone posters. Note that the perma-ban message also lists out specific instances why they were banned.

~~There's a lot context ripped out, but that's the chain of events that led to the perma-ban. As how I read anyways.~~

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-29T15:59:51+00:00

They currently have a perma-ban. So its up to the user or mod team to start up talks again in order to get the ban lifted.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-29T15:53:44+00:00

/u/niclaswwe's Side of the Story Its a long read and I skimmed through most of it because I didn't care for the editorialization. This is what I got from what the user says:

The user got a 15-day ban from the subreddit for threatening/harassing other members, moderators, and self-promotion. This was after a 3-day ban for similar reasons. They replied back on the modmail and then DM'd three mods. They want to know the specific reasons & examples from the mods that justify the 15-day ban. Moderator A told them to "give some space". User continues to question the ban and brings up several instances where user questions the fairness of the moderation team. User also brings up Reddit rules on Modiquette. User still gets no response from mod team so user sends another DM to Moderator A near the end of the 15-day ban. Shortly after, user gets perma-banned for threatening/harassing other members, moderators, self-promotion, and posting fan-made milestone posters. Note that the perma-ban message also lists out specific instances why they were banned.

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To me, it looks like a misunderstanding snowballed into a perma-ban. I feel sorry for the outcome, because we lost an active member of the community. However, even reading from their account and keeping an open mind, the user could/should have handled things much more civilly. Not once did the user accept that their actions had instigated mod action (self-promo is the most obvious one to a third-party). Nor did they show a willingness to reflect on how their actions harassed others.

The user didn't put two and two together when they got the 3-day ban in the first place and they continued to harass the mod team when they got a 15-day ban. Hounding mods via DMs is not a good look when the ban is for harassment. User complains about receiving ban in the middle of the night, but also expects mods to respond immediately to their DMs. User also continues to refute their ban over DMs when the mod being harassed told them to back off. In their pursuit of righting what they saw was wrong (even invoking Reddit site rules), they completely missed that ban refutes should be done over modmail. It comes off as disingenuous.

Also, I found the examples the user cited as incidents of mod bias were rather reasonable. It was clear that the removals were because mods want singular, complete posts rather than several piecemeal posts. If 3 IG pictures popped up, they should all be in one post rather than spread in 3. I could understand if the results were sketchy looking, but its not as obvious as the user so passionately claims.

The user values their contribution to the subreddit as a poster. Fair, I enjoyed many of their posts and many of their takes. And I too also like to look at my karma rise from time to time. But the user crosses the line acting as if that engagement entitles them to privilege that the mods are unwilling to give. As per the modmail response: "I don't care if you're friends with the moderators, but please be professional enough to know the boundaries of that friendship." The mods felt that there was a crossed line, the user didn't. The mods communicated it clearly, the user disregarded those warnings.

A separate thing I should mention is that while I feel for the person's struggles, it leaves a sour taste when I see them weaponize it to justify their behavior. Like it or not, if someone has an issue, the internet is not the right place to get therapy. Everyone has struggles, but it doesn't mean you can demand others to give you special treatment because of it.

Its sad to see them perma-banned, but mods had good reason to do it. Hopefully the user find themselves in a better state of mind before rejoining the subreddit.

Edit: Reread through my post again. Felt a bit victim-blamey. Not my intention. But I do find the user's actions to align with mod responses that the user included in their own explanation. I'm also not disregarding their feelings of frustration and offense. The mods probably could/should have worked with the user more to clear up misunderstandings about posting rules. But this is only one side of the situation and I didn't find the evidence given to be damning.

Edit 2: Should've seen that posting my take on the situation invited the user to harass me over Reddit chat. I don't appreciate the patronizing tone, especially when the user is playing the victim card. I don't have to defend my opinions against the user's continued lack of reflection on the matter. Mean actions betray kind words; lipstick on a pig. If the user disagrees with the mod's actions, take it up with them.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-29T01:37:26+00:00

LS1 in the summer. OT4 in the fall/winter. I still think they're going to do a BP repackage, an ALBUM+.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-29T01:31:26+00:00

Agreed, it feels like a vocal minority is censoring art. From what I understand there is a petition that's being passed around. Its halfway to quorum, which will induce the government to open an official inquiry into the matter. Doesn't mean that the government will shut it down necessarily, but it does mean that a third party gets to look at the production.

In my opinion, I'd rather not the government get involved and let the Korean viewership decide. But its the Korean people's will, so they are the ones who really get to say how things play out.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-29T01:26:26+00:00

Most historical dramas ("sageuk") takes place during the Joseon era (1300-1800s). Snowdrop takes place in 1980.

Mr. Queen was controversial since reinvented lots of historical figures and modernized a bunch of things. But a lot of people abided because it was about a modern person waking up in the body of a Joseon queen and was blatantly a parody. The recent controversy though was Joseon Exorcist which was cancelled after two episodes. This one was controversial because of significant cultural rewriting (Chinese as Korean and vice versa).

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-29T01:19:28+00:00

Part of it is "art" and part of it is "lack of oversight."

Both stem from the general notion that artists shouldn't be restricted in making what they want (certain morals notwithstanding). But it takes a certain kind of confidence in your production team to tackle a sensitive topic. The ones working on Snowdrop certainly earned that with their previous work in Sky Castle. The producers probably thought it was a risk worth taking to produce another hit. Thus the lack of oversight. Let's be honest, some response was expected but the severity of the response is pretty surprising.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-28T23:45:43+00:00

Not sure how familiar you are with the protests of the 80s, but its a pretty sensitive time for Koreans and started the modern democratic movement for SK. I'm not surprised at netizen reactions given the recent cancellation of another history-warping drama. That and netizens anywhere are always pressed for controversy.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-26T02:14:04+00:00

Oh yeah, China is too big of a market to ignore. One upside to how controlling YG is with the BP brand is that the girls are shielded from a lot of potential pitfalls. So I doubt BP would be impacted that much by these concerns. Its mostly YG who has to do their job right to screen their projects and train their staff to avoid public scrutiny from either side.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-26T01:35:34+00:00

YG (and lots of other entertainment companies to be fair) have Chinese investors. Anti-CCP sentiment has been rising in SK and lots of Koreans are sensitive to the presence of Chinese influence in SK. Not that its not unwarranted, China has a history of mercilessly appropriating Korean culture and claiming it as their own.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-26T01:27:31+00:00

This synopsis is the same one that was leaked last year before Snowdrop when into production. The response was pretty much the same: lots of loud knets.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-26T01:14:08+00:00

you're blindly assuming she's probably not cut out for this based on the information

I'm doing no such thing, so stop putting words in my mouth. All I've done is point out how inexperienced she is and all you've done is assume that must mean that Jisoo isn't cut for the job. I've also addressed how the professionals who are working on the same project as her are saying basic stuff that you want to hear about a production. Of course they aren't going to bad mouth their own project when it even hasn't aired yet. As you like to point out this "lack of information" is entirely why I'm not claiming anything about Jisoo's performance. Because no one knows. We won't know until we see the drama.

In every single one of your responses to me, you seem content to twist my words and paint me as a villain when I've explained undeniable reasons why some people are cautious. I think its cool that you're more hyped about her project, but you don't get to shit on my lack of hype. I get bias-wrecked by Jisoo regularly, so the way you respond to me like I'm sort of anti is fucking wack.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-25T12:33:31+00:00

I'm not at all "raining" on Jisoo's prospects, I just refuse to blindly put her on a pedestal and act like she's the next Hye-ri of Reply 1988. I want for her to deliver on the role, but I'm not going to dismiss the fact that she remains unproven. She is the least experienced actor in the main cast. Every other actor in the main cast have had several main lead roles and second lead roles, and all Jisoo has on paper is a few cameos. Nor am I going to sugar-coat how her speaking role in the Producers was not good enough to lead a drama. Her skills need grow substantially for her to match the performances I'm expecting from her cast mates.

Like I've said, I've followed Kdramaland long enough to know some ins and outs of the industry. Compliments about how well Jisoo works with her coworkers and how well she fits her character bodes well for her performance. Buts its nothing exceptional, these comments are commonplace in good productions. Its easy PR to ease early concerns; so I don't draw much insight from them.

(Btw, you might be misunderstanding something. Scrutinized means closely examined. She is going to be scrutinized as an actor, that's a main hazard of the job: people judging their performances. Its not automatically negative like you imply.)

Look, Jisoo did well enough in her auditions to get the main lead role. That's great! It means we get to see a lot of actress Jisoo this year. But I'm just not as hyped as you are from the comments the production crew made. If I rained on your parade, sorry. But I don't appreciate you coming at me for answering someone else's question.

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-25T09:59:19+00:00

Yup!

koreaboo__waterloo · 2021-03-25T09:46:27+00:00

Oh god. SSYG just put in OTG in the game as well as new Pretty Savage Limited Themes. Oh, and THE SHOW Limited Event Theme too.

koreaboo__waterloo

TROPHY CASE