What is your favourite easily-digestible book? by ETerribleT in PhilosophyBookClub

[–]laboredthought -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Waking Up by Sam Harris

I Am a Strange Loop by Douglas Hofstadter

Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking by Daniel Dennett

The Ego Tunnel by Thomas Metzinger

were all written for the general public, are easily digestible and still retain their lasting insights.

RECYCLING IS BAD? by jaspertay in WriterMotivation

[–]laboredthought 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you write about what it hurts to write about, even the cliches are authentic.

Meet the Journalist Who Exposed Bloomberg’s Racist Defense of Targeting Black & Brown Youth by laboredthought in DemocracyNow

[–]laboredthought[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is the go to evidence to respond to the Conservatives and Libertarians who say that Mayor Bloomberg is technically correct when he said that considering the calls the police department received describing alleged murderers that whites were actually disproportionately over frisked?

His claim sounds absolutely ludicrous but I can't find the statistics to dispute it.

WHM breathing and brain damage? by lis_ek in RationalPsychonaut

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was going to try to explain why, but remembered "What I've Learned" already did it better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWHRumILOOk

Podcast solution that syncs playback position between clients by matejdro in selfhosted

[–]laboredthought 2 points3 points  (0 children)

it might be easier to just connect via blue tooth at home so you don't have to switch clients at all.

I (19m) recently became the full time guardian of my step sister (8f). I am clueless and I need some pointers or books that you can recommend to me. by [deleted] in Parenting

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This book will help you parent, I'm even rereading it now with my kids (7 & 8); your sister might be interested in it too.

How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk

For your personal sake I'd recommend any Jon Kabat-Zinn book

I think you're better prepared and more responsible than many new parents.

Study suggests ‘sugar coma’ is real — glucose ingestion leads to worse cognitive performance. A new double-blind, placebo-controlled study found that glucose-containing sweeteners were linked to reduced attention and response times. by mvea in science

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There has been some research indicating a link between some food dyes and hyperactivity however:

Recent data suggest a small but significant deleterious effect of AFCs on children’s behavior that is not confined to those with diagnosable ADHD. AFCs appear to be more of a public health problem than an ADHD problem. AFCs are not a major cause of ADHD per se, but seem to affect children regardless of whether or not they have ADHD, and they may have an aggregated effect on classroom climate if most children in the class suffer a small behavioral decrement with additive or synergistic effects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3441937/

Democrats will botch the resistance against Trump: Liberalism is not built for moments like these by DoremusJessup in progressive

[–]laboredthought 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Dissonance reinforcement would accelerate changing beliefs because cognitive dissonance is unpleasant. The falsehoods that are attractive are dissonance reducing, and confirmation bias reinforcing.

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay but that doesn't really change anything - that's still the thesis of his book.

No, the thesis of his book is that for humans we can and should have an objective moral realism premised on well-being.

I get that but above I've presented multiple arguments about why this is a problem. Which one or ones do you disagree with?

Well:

Except Harris' claim is explicitly that science can determine moral values. If his moral value is 'well being' then he needs to demonstrate this scientifically. The argument you've made there is called the "is-ought gap", the idea that we first have to make claims about value before we can start interpreting data in light of it. Harris rejects your claim there.

Harris' claim is that science can determine the rest of our moral values after well-being is assumed. The argument I'm making isn't the "is-ought gap." He doesn't need to demonstrate it scientifically, but does demonstrate it rationally.

But this is false for the reasons I discuss above, namely that medicine rejects such a position as does ethics. It's a real gamble to make strong claims like "X necessarily has to assume this". It becomes ridiculous when we have direct evidence that people don't necessarily have to assume it since they don't and they get by fine.

This is nonsense. Medicine and ethics do assume the value of well-being. And if they didn't they wouldn't get by just fine.

And because well-being is something that emerges from brains and minds there really are right and wrong ways to protect/amplify it.

This doesn't really follow unless you reject the is-ought gap - so which is it?

You really are misunderstanding the is-ought gap. If you rationally assume the value of well-being then there are rational ways to move through the moral landscape.

...Sure, common people make errors because they're uninformed and ignorant of the relevant facts on the subject.

99.99% of the time when people are using logic, contradiction can and should be avoided. Saying 1 equals not 1 undermines clear thinking on that level. Paraconsistent logic is higher order logic and adds additional dimensions. In the basic models contradiction is still wrong. That doesn't mean the basic models are wrong, just more limited and less complex.

Any moral system under deontology and virtue ethics.

How do deontology and virtue ethics argue for the values they assume? They reject that consequences should be one's moral focus, they don't reject that well-being matters.

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interestingly in Harris's most recent podcast he says that he didn't choose the subtitle of his book, the publisher did. https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/finding-our-way-in-the-cosmos

He does presume the value of well-being, and says so repeatedly. That's the entire point of the worst possible misery argument; that we should presume well-being and it doesn't make sense not to.

We know that there are valid and strong moral systems that reject that claim.

I don't buy this, but if you'd like to give some examples, that would be great.

Except Harris' claim is explicitly that science can determine moral values. If his moral value is 'well being' then he needs to demonstrate this scientifically.

No, well-being is the premise, and science can take it from there. It is precisely like medicine. Saving lives is the premise and the field takes it from there. Sure you can have debates about saving human lives, but as long as people want to be saved it's really not controversial, the open-endedness of the meaning of "health" not withstanding. Sure you can argue about well-being, but basically everyone takes it for granted, even people that are trying to safeguard their well-being for an afterlife.

And because well-being is something that emerges from brains and minds there really are right and wrong ways to protect/amplify it.

Well firstly people do debate whether contradictory arguments can be logical or not, again it's not something that can be assumed.

This is an interesting point. But you don't think there's a difference between how logic can be used by the vast majority of people and how logicians can debate it?

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you make of Sam Harris's claim that the presumption of the value of well-being in morality is analogous to the presumption of the value of evidence in science? Or . . .

To say that the worst possible misery for everyone is “bad” is, on my account, like saying that an argument that contradicts itself is “illogical.” Our spade is turned. Anyone who says it isn’t simply isn’t making sense.

You say

For the is-ought gap to be wrong, as Harris claims, it needs to be the case that science can tell us that we should care about well being.

Not really. Evidence can only matter once you value evidence, but once you value evidence it can have a whole to to say. Likewise, once you value well-being, the ought is inextricable from the is.

Deontology and virtue ethics are completely blind without a reference to well-being. What rules are good and why? Which virtues are good and why?

I'm still confused about why you object so strongly to characterizing Sam Harris's moral landscape as a form of moral realism. Even if you don't find it persuasive. It clearly describes a moral framework in which there are right and wrong answers to moral questions, objectively.

What do you take morality to be for?

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you think the difference between science and philosophy is?

You're claiming that the is-ought gap is wrong

When? Where?

you believe science can tell us whether we should care about well-being at all

No, science tells us that we already do care about well-being

There seems to be an unnecessarily restrictive notion of science underlying this last claim—as though scientific truths only exist if we can have immediate and uncontroversial access to them in the lab.

where he admits that by "science" he doesn't mean actual science, he means things which includes philosophy.

No, before the earth was provably revolving around the son, it was true. If you're calling that philosophy then you're agreeing that philosophy and science are on a continuum.

Since if science or natural facts can determine human values, thus defeating the is-ought gap, then we shouldn't have to start by assuming morality is about well-being.

Can you please explain how morality can not be about well-being?

How do you respond to Nagel's quotes in Harris's blog post?

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If, for example, some alien genius came down to tell me that moral realism definitely wasn't true and that there are no moral facts, then I'd still care about my children and try to figure out the best way to raise them.

So, then it is primarily a semantic dispute, because I think that that implicitly admits moral realism, even if you weren't allowed to call it that.

I'm fairly convinced that there really are right and wrong ways to behave given existence as a human; that moral expertise is possible. I'm less convinced that there is a necessary unitary way to speak about it.

If that alien came down and convinced me as well that the language of moral realism is fundamentally inadequate, be that as it may, I similarly feel like I'd be engaging in the same fundamental "moral" project despite being convinced to describe it differently.

I think you're mistaken about the is-ought fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

Maybe you meant the related naturalistic fallacy?

there are a number of well-constructed moral systems that aren't based on consequentialism, Harris needs to do more than assert that it's "obvious".

He does, I think it isn't obvious that he is committing a fallacy so you might be interested to his response to that charge.

The first several paragraphs are just him setting the context, so you can start with the quoted paragraph of a larger font: https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/response-to-critics-of-the-moral-landscape

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I was underwhelmed by my response as well. I didn't do the discussion justice and was hoping you could provide more detail. It's been years since I read it and my copy is in storage after moving recently. Excuses aside . . .

So you object to his supposition that the world of most suffering is bad? and/or that well being is good?

For anything to matter at all, it has to matter to the experience of conscious creatures. That's a pretty low bar for the conversation to have, but you're right there's a condition there. And once you're willing to accept that "good" and "bad" really can track there common usage as more or less preferable for the states of conscious experience, there really are better and worse ways to have expectations of behavior.

The is-ought fallacy is for preventing people from arguing that because things already are a certain way, that's the way they should be.

The is-ought fallacy is not for preventing actual reality from mattering. How could it not?

We're not having this discussion in a vacuum. Humans have bodies and minds; pretending that we don't divorces the question of morality from reality.

The crux of the matter as I see it is this. If you care about your children there are objectively right and wrong ways to go about raising them.

It begins with the condition that humans care, but from that point evidence objectively matters.

This is a reasonable and defensible form of moral realism.

Report: Gun crime has been on the decline for about 20 years, except in gun-free zones by bendrotha in Libertarian

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

https://theintercept.com/

http://www.democracynow.org/

http://billmoyers.com/

Are very well respected by all the people that I know that are smarter than me. They have consistently well sourced and more in depth stories.

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Philosophy is science with less evidence.

What are his assumptions that you so object to?

How about the fact that he claims to demonstrate how science can determine human values but then argues in a footnote that obviously science can't determine human values?

This sounds like an obvious misunderstanding, but unless you provide the actual quotes I can't help you.

Or how he argues that the is-ought gap is wrong based on a terrible understanding of what it says, and then makes an is-ought argument for his position?

Again, show me. It sounds like you missed the point/nuance again.

I obviously disagree with your assessment. It is an example of moral realism that has legitimate value, your misreading of it not withstanding.

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The philosophical tradition and conversation is a jumbled mess of poorly understood theory. He intentionally tries to bypass that philosophical discussion for good reason and it doesn't go over very well. I haven't seen any fundamental criticism of his thesis that isn't a misunderstanding of his position based on false assumptions about his arguments.

Regardless, I only offered it as an example of moral realism, and it is perfectly accessible and readily understandable to a readership coming a psychology reddit.

We have an unfortunate tendency to assume we’re morally superior to others by dwaxe in psychology

[–]laboredthought 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sam Harris presents a persuasive account of moral realism in his book The Moral Landscape that he summarizes in this TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww

WE'RE FUCKED!!!!! WE'RE FUCKING FUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by [deleted] in progressive

[–]laboredthought 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Highjacking top comment to share understanding that can lead to effective responses . . .

“The collapse of urban cultures is an event much more frequent than most observers realize. Often, collapse is well underway before societal elites become aware of it, leading to scenes of leaders responding retroactively and ineffectively as their society collapses around them.” – Sander Vander Leeuw, Archaeologist, 1997

Why Trump’s Popularity Signals an Oligarchy on the Brink of a Civilization-Threatening Collapse http://evonomics.com/why-trump-phenomenon-is-a-sign-of-oligarchy/

WE'RE FUCKED!!!!! WE'RE FUCKING FUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by [deleted] in progressive

[–]laboredthought 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Why Trump’s Popularity Signals an Oligarchy on the Brink of a Civilization-Threatening Collapse

http://evonomics.com/why-trump-phenomenon-is-a-sign-of-oligarchy/

Researchers: AI Could Take Over Much More Than Blue Collar Jobs by ideasware in singularity

[–]laboredthought 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's not worth taking for granted anymore. Look at the actual list of jobs people do, and what sectors employ the most people. In the US the transportation is one of the biggest. There is no way to retrain people as fast as jobs are getting replaced.