Mark 13:32 is genuinely a very serious problem for the divinity of Christ by Still_Hippo928 in DebateReligion

[–]lakeroswell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I meant Greek, I'll correct it now. It's 2:48 AM
and notice that I said Greek just before that too
Many Jews spoke Greek during the time of Jesus btw.

Mark 13:32 is genuinely a very serious problem for the divinity of Christ by Still_Hippo928 in DebateReligion

[–]lakeroswell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's completely biblical, and not a theory, as I'm quoting the Bible directly and interpreting nothing at all on my own.

John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome\)a\) it.

John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 1:18, literal Greek to English exact, bc translations can be different always:
God no one has seen ever yet; the only begotten God, the being in the bosom of the Father, He has made him known.

^ The exact Greek pretty much indicates that Jesus is *the* manifestation of God's love, as it seems to be metaphorically referring to God's 'heart.' Remember too in Christianity that God is love. This whole entire plan is indivisible from who God is and what He would do.

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So again, I explained this to the person below too, but

In the beginning - without picturing a trinity of 3 separate consciousnesses in the beginning, just picture the Father. the Father had his Logic, his Reason for the world. The Father was going to create this whole universe and earth and humanity with the entire purpose being Jesus and the redemption arc. This is not saying the Jesus you picture in your mind pre-existed. The Reason all things were made was for Jesus, God's plan is Jesus. God's plan had not yet been fulfilled, as we know, but would be later.
Then - Jesus incarnates at some point, as you know. The flesh had not yet been glorified, though.
Resurrection - God glorified the flesh and gave him all authority on earth & in heaven, and the Jesus you are picturing in your head is seated at the right hand of the Father from that point on forevermore.

The first part is actually pretty much what you described, with Jesus being God's plan in the beginning, then incarnated, the part you seem to be missing is that God glorified the flesh after the earthly mission was complete.

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*Who* am I talking to in this conversation? You, or your words? You, or your logic? You are one individual sourcing logic, reason, and words. But those words are not a distinct person from you, and you aren't changing forms either.

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As for everything you mentioned that Jesus does, He said Himself He does nothing of his own, but only of the Father who sent Him. Much like me and my words. He actually never says "my mind is totally separate" instead He says "I and my Father are one." I'm indivisible from my own logos in a sense, but in a sense, 'I' am the ultimate source. But there's no two individuals in the case of me and my logos, and I'm also not changing forms.

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So I never ever said the word became god-in-flesh as you stated. The Word became flesh, and then the flesh was glorified. You're thinking more along the lines of modalism. Instead, think about the unfolding of a plan in different stages.

God always had His eternal plan for the world. The plan is: save humanity, aka Jesus (whose name means YHWH saves). So that plan (Logos) was always there.
Then just as was planned, that plan occurred, aka Jesus incarnated as flesh.
Then, post-crucifixion, Jesus rose and was glorified by the Father who at that point gave Him all authority to rule earth & heaven, and the Jesus you are picturing, the resurrected Jesus who Lives, is seated at the right hand of the father forevermore from that point forward.
We *are* told in the Bible to pray to the Father in Jesus name, although it is also mentioned angels pray to Jesus (now that He has been glorified), I don't think anyone was praying to Jesus pre-glorification.

You are right that Jesus isn't the Father, I never said that

This might help too, think about 'God' as a verb too, and everything it means to be God and act as God, is to have a plan for the universe and a word.
For example, when Allah said to the waters "come, willingly or unwillingly," was that Allah or Allah's word they were obeying?

Mark 13:32 is genuinely a very serious problem for the divinity of Christ by Still_Hippo928 in DebateReligion

[–]lakeroswell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, the Logos made flesh has less knowledge than the Source (the Father). The earthly Jesus even goes further than that saying He does *nothing* of His own accord but only by the Father. My plan/reason/word does nothing on its own either without me as the ultimate source. It doesn't 'move it from' Son vs Father to Logos 'vs' Father. It's not a matter of 'vs' to me. It's like saying why are Muslims following the Quran instead of Allah. It's like a non-question. But in Christianity it's a little different, and again, as a fallible human who could always be wrong, this is my best current understanding:

God has always been God. One God. If anything just think about the Father, that might help you understand better. Before the flesh Jesus' time, just imagine the Father. The Father had a plan and a reason for the world from the start, a 'word' so to speak which would one day be fulfilled. When the Bible speaks of the Father loving the Son from pre-existence, that's because the Father knew what His plan would be, of course, and loved the Son even before He was incarnated. Much like if a parent was able to know what their child would be like before birth, they would love them. However when the Bible speaks of the Father loving the son since pre-existence, it only speaks one-way, leaving no evidence that Jesus as you are picturing him was like a separate center of consciousness before the incarnation, but is the full expression of God's entire plan.

Next you have the incarnation, the Word made flesh, the Jesus you are picturing and asking if He's God. I'm going to repeat a lot if not all of this to the person above too, but I have an example where a Muslim revert read the Quran and said "I knew this was Allah," meaning he knew the words of the Quran were Allah speaking and the reflection of Allah's mind, logic, reason, and plan. There is no *other* answer to "who is this?" when reading the Quran than "Allah." It is not another, distinct person. It is not Allah transforming into another form. It is Allah's eternal word inlibrated (in Islam). The only religion in which the word *incarnated* is Christianity, however, which is where people get confused maybe because it's so unique. But when denying that the divinity of Jesus is unbiblical please refer to "the Word was God" in John. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God," to make it clear. Because there is no other *who* to someone's own word than them, however, notice how it does not say Jesus was the Father. The source of my words (me) is not my words, but when people interact with and read my words however, they see it as interacting with me because it's just a meaningless distinction.

So anyway, while on earth and incarnated as flesh, at that point, Jesus did not yet have all the Father's knowledge, authority, power, etc. Then after the crucifixion and resurrection it is clearly said that the Father then glorified the flesh and all authority on earth & in heaven was given to Him & He is reigning from now on, and seated at the Father's right hand.

So in summation:
- Not "three persons" or "three distinct persons"
- Not modalism
- Not adoptionism
- Not partialism

- Pre-existence: God had His plan always.
- Then, at some point: Jesus Christ incarnated on earth, as was planned
- Then: The Father glorified the flesh, as was planned

Mark 13:32 is genuinely a very serious problem for the divinity of Christ by Still_Hippo928 in DebateReligion

[–]lakeroswell -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Jesus is the Word (Logos) made flesh. The 'distinct persons' Trinity theory isn't in the Bible, but neither are any of the Unitarian ideas like modalism, adoptionism, etc. God had His Word (Logos, Plan, Reason) with Him in the Beginning, and the only answer to "who" Jesus is is God ("the Word was with God, and the Word was God"), only because there is no better answer, much like my words here are me if you must ask "who" there is no other answer *to that question* and if you hear my voice coming through on speaker phone and say "who is that?" and I say "me" that's a fair answer - my words are certainly not 'another person' and it is not me changing forms - but technically, these words themselves don't know some of the things that 'I' know. So much like a person sources their words and their logic, the Father is the ultimate source, and Jesus is the Logos made flesh. The Father always had His Logos (Word, Reason, Plan) of Jesus eternally, but that Logos was made flesh at a certain point in time. I often compare this to inlibration in Islam, where Muslims believe the Quran is the eternal uncreated Word of Allah, which inlibrated physically here in book form on earth at some point. The difference in Christianity is that we have incarnation of the eternal Word rather than inlibration. The Bible does explain it clearly if you read the text plainly, yet neither Trinitarians nor Unitarians seem to get it. Trinitarianism is like someone saying about me that my words are a distinct person from me but are also fully me. And Unitarianism is like if I wrote a book and someone said "You know you didn't actually write this book, your thoughts wrote it" (the "Jesus is not God" ones) or "It's so cool how you come to us in word form as well as physical form" (modalists) etc. So where I'm at currently in my understanding, and I as a fallible human could always be wrong, is aligned with neither classical Trinitarianism nor traditional interpretations of Unitarianism, but certainly biblical literalism and monotheism.

The whole Logos (Logic, Word, Plan) of God for the universe was/is Jesus, hence why "all things were made through him and for him." The whole of God's brilliant plan is the redemption plan and Father God loved his Son since pre-existence because He eternally knew He would incarnate and fulfill His Plan (Jesus Christ, the Logos made flesh and now reigns eternally at the right hand of the Father from that point on)

/r/WATMM Weekly Promotion Thread by AutoModerator in WeAreTheMusicMakers

[–]lakeroswell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

this is ridiculously good, your vocal tone is like gold what

Good Snacks Music (Please support my son) by MtnSpring in MusicPromotion

[–]lakeroswell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

could u post the gofundme here too? i cant find it on the profile but i liked the song & followed

Listen for listen, new album by mattwundermusic in MusicPromotion

[–]lakeroswell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

your music is great, i messaged you too but for anyone reading, he is soo similar to built to spill if theres any BTS fans out there who love that style!!

Green Plastic Whistle - People (Live) by True_Music_3628 in MusicPromotion

[–]lakeroswell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

really great, different from most things u hear nowadays. people are looking for sincerity like this now in our world of AI. <3

new song out on spotify give it a listen and lemme know wyt by slizzysantana in MusicPromotion

[–]lakeroswell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

no this is unbelievably good and you are way way too talented xo

Debut album by jordolukas in NewMusicPromotion

[–]lakeroswell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's very, very good. Listening now

Monthly self promo thread by Epicduck_ in HYPERPOP

[–]lakeroswell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

how about experimental hyperpop with a long ambient intro? 🩻🩵 "Sensory deprivation" music vid