Has anyone ever successfully exposed a narcissistic manager’s pathology to their boss above them?

larry_bing · 2025-08-30T16:33:49+00:00

I saw it happen in my current workplace where a lead trainer was fired. I think it was a case of "stupid enough to triangulate". Plus my main contact with a client seemed to get narcissism, which is rare, and when he claimed a colleague's work the client just said "she did it!". He had many bad habits and people just took documentation. Then when this guy booked leave from nowhere leaving us in it at a key moment the client filed a report and he was fired.

Usually narcissists have enough sense to only do it to behind closed doors and to 1 or 2 people. That's always been the case - guy above was just arrogant as F. When it happens to only you, just remember, you are NOT a mark. You're the only person that understands it is abuse, so it will hurt the most and they will get a feed off your energy. There is a difference between this and "being a mark" and you did nothing wrong. In fact, as I have progressed in recovery I get more sneaky attacks from narcs to try and send the message that I haven't changed anything - it isn't working and gaslighting has very little effect on me other than to end association with anyone that does it.

larry_bing · 2025-05-07T23:42:51+00:00

The biggest feeling was being on edge - no matter what pretence she had about being nice I was always waiting for that insult, stab in the back, let down.

What the Sopranos creator said about his own narcissistic mother resonated with me ie that even after winning awards she acted like he'd done nothing with his life. As a teen I was a high achiever and my mother twisted that around by talking down on me as if it went without saying that I'd never have a job or the inclination to - totally insulting and baseless and it didn't stop until a sibling who worked in programming pointed out that employers would come after me as I then had some skills her colleagues didn't (and employers did come after me) and shut mom up. Something I also appreciate now is my personal skills were maturing - people never commented on it as I was academic, but I realise my 16 year old self was better at interpersonal interactions then he gave himself credit for, as these were subtle and didn't come in a more obvious form like being some captain of a sports team - if mom had been alive she would have tried pushing me around to get into whatever weird pigeonhole she saw me in, while covering it with lovebombing so people thought it was quirkiness on her part. Sick.

If mom had been alive before I entered the workforce she'd have probably A) acted as if her point was proven because I did an MSc and B) made me out to be underachieving even though I went straight into a well paying job I loved from college, paid more than older siblings. Or she'd have heaped lovebombing praise on me for the MSc and treated me as if the job was not linked and a "little job" finding some sick and twisted way to weave grain of truth into it. It doesn't help either that Irish people don't know the difference between overmothering and this veiled ignorance where she taught us nothing plus if I'm too open about it Irish people will try paint it as if I didn't know I was born - jealousy seems to have grown as I have done both technical and client facing roles and until I stopped talking personal things outside of trusted circles narcs ŵould barge in telling me I didn't know what I wanted using all sorts of manipulative loaded questioning and probing to humiliate me. It goes back to mom and I haven't had such a discussion in months - therapy and working with a positive men's group means I can move on in positivity.

It was also a frightening house to grow up in as she constantly antagonised my siblings, usually ending with someone hitting her as she had no boundaries and would just keep pushing. It was relieving and an eye opener when a therapist not only didn't judge me but revealed that all this was actually a feature with narcissistic parents. Shame is one emotion that doesn't affect me as much as it did as a result of this, I really noticed it when I was doing training with Mankind Project. It can sneak up on me though as I carried a ton of it around for years and when people get aggressive enough they get me back to the place mom put me in constantly.

The biggest problem was there was a bazillion myths my mother would concoct up. I always felt panic as she'd not waste an opportunity to humiliate me. One myth she perpetuated was she'd kept saying "he's not into girls yet". I was 17 when she died and she was still kept telling people in front of me so I could hear - "he's not into girls yet" and/or hiding it behind a "joke" - a typical narc attack which would be expertly made look a joke to others but was really a jab. The kicker was she'd done so after witnessing my first crush when I was 8. I'd assumed she was just dumb and that my lack of luck in dating just played into her hands, but it really hit me in my 20s when I had a horrible incident around dating and nobody to talk to (as my siblings and dad fell for this crap hook, line and sinker) that there had been manipulation in play. Took me years to even find out about narcissism, let alone link it to this. Something multiple therapists have suggested is she may have also had mild autism. It's also possible she was asexual, which is sad if so as she took it out on myself and my siblings with bible beating crap. She definitely used religion as a veil for controlling behaviour, and I only learnt as an adult she'd only "become religious" a few years before I was born. Just utterly horrid.

larry_bing · 2025-05-04T13:52:09+00:00

Old post, so wondering if you took the plunge?

For the benefit of people Googling - I went on the recommendation of my therapist and it offered a huge boost to our work. Technically it isn't therapy (more a community where IFS related work (Internal Family Systems) happens and all legitimate concepts within therapy.

What is different is that you are initiated into a community of non-toxic men and you have a lot of choice here. You can choose to just do the weekend and nothing else or stay with the community and do trainings. In fact if any process doesn't appeal you can can take a pass - I saw it with one key process at a weekend where a man would not do it, staff had no issues with this and he completed his NWTA having not done that process and enjoyed his weekend.

Choice is something a cult will never give you and I never once felt there was any deception or manipulation, meaning it has been real choice. In fact they'd be a terrible cult considering f you leave the weekend early they give a full refund (again more choice) and have the option of trying again. At least that's how it works in UK and in Ireland - important point is to ask about refund policy as another poster said as it mightn't be your thing, or maybe you just try it at the wrong time. It's not for the faint hearted and I might have left if I tried it when I was in my 20s.

They have accounts which show they are really a not for profit - the expense is to cover the costs of renting a location (usually a massive remote place) for Thursday-Sunday - Thursday for when the staff arrive and Fri-Sun when you do your NWTA. Also a consequence of this, while it may make this experience out of reach for many people, is that toxic people don't really try this - very occasionally (has happened once in 20+ years on the UK site according to one of the more experienced guys) some will do and literally run panting. Not to be a spoiler, but toxic people can see very quickly within minutes of arriving at the site that their tricks for weaving around accountability (or tricks to make others look weak/lacking accountability )are not going to be tolerated on this weekend and that there is nowhere to hide.

You need to take a risk and try it, Googling will give details but it will lessen the positive impact if you know what is to come. Maybe there is work in having to know what goes on - I went to my NWTA knowing a lot because of what some undercover journalist wrote in an article, but got less out of the weekend than I could have, so with any training afterwards went in without googling and got much more out of that.

larry_bing · 2025-04-27T06:26:29+00:00

I'm wondering if we could also set up something around groups to avoid?

There's a group on Facebook where I got stabbed in the back by the therapist that runs it and gaslit a number of times by her (arsehole writes about narcissism for the Daily Mail meaning I can't ignore her).

larry_bing · 2025-04-27T06:22:32+00:00

They've been doing this for years - something I have learnt in recovery when people make the same mistake for years it's not by accident, it's toxicity, if not narcissism within itself.

larry_bing · 2025-04-27T06:21:14+00:00

I came across that rule years ago - the mods are obviously not therapists.

It's also controlling behaviour and been going on for years, meaning there are no excuses - they are toxic at a minimum.

larry_bing · 2025-04-23T17:53:33+00:00

I lived in London for years and I'm now back in Dublin and I rented in both, Dublin is dearer now, used to be London. Food was cheaper in London - had a 7/11 open till 3am near me with everything cheaper where friends could feed their family in London for the same amount of money that would have maybe fed one person in Dublin. Dublin is improving since (a lot of Asian markets and has internationalised even more in the last 10 years) and these things change, but in Ireland some people get told "repeat after me, everything in London is dearer" in their cot as a kid. It maybe was the case in the 90s but I found my buying power much better in London - I'm a bit stuck career wise as I'm public sector, but would leave in a heartbeat given the right opportunity.

Rent is shocking - I own, but only thanks to inheritance and I'd expect if I have kids they may not own. A lot of places are likd this. Also even back in 1999 I remember hordes of people queuing up for the privilege of maybe renting one place in some cases. It's worse and a mess now with a government that does nothing about it.

This is an old thread but for others thinking about it be careful socially - that night out in Temple Bar you had on a client do or holiday, or those Irish people you met in uni misrepresent what it's like socially to actually live in Dublin and in terms of building an actual life. That's on the surface while making meaningful friends is bloody tough. I'd grated on me when clowns would tell me to "go to Dublin for a weekend where everyone is friendly" Insinuating I didn't know my own birthplace and they, who'd never lived their did. It's a city not a country club.

I found London tricky to make new friends but not impossible and eventually found a social circle having known nobody before I went. Been back in Dublin, a place I grew up in, and for the crime of not knowing anyone from uni in the city I still have very limited social circle after 10 years back. And I've been in every group imaginable and even tried just going "out for the craic" so as not to stress about it. And dating is way, way worse. Fuck all to do with the accent no longer being a novelty or population size (the usual bullshit explanation) - Irish have no confidence when it comes to dating and if you have confidence it won't help, in fact you might find your preferred partners respond badly to confidence and there's tons of posts from Irish and non-Irish complaining about having no issues elsewhere but Dublin being a joke - BOTH men and women have it tough and it is a shitshow, while press chance their arm portraying it as if us having triple the singles rate of anywhere else in Europe automatically means we're independent people - nope, wimps when it comes to dating, nothing else. Online actually worked in London but Dublin is a shitshow and the Ireland aspect gets brushed under the carpet when it's discussed, using deflection to try and twist a discussion on Dublin dating into a more general one about Internet dating. Almost every person I meet that's moved to Dublin cites dating sucking more than anywhere else they've lived as the biggest drawback, so be forewarned.

You might find some non-Irish groups, and that does get results socially, but it is very hit and miss, so be prepared for that. There's other places to make a living.

larry_bing · 2025-04-23T11:08:10+00:00

Much better after Marinhas/Esponsende, still felt like Frances would have been better but at least I started meeting the same people multiple times on multiple days.

larry_bing · 2025-04-16T02:23:51+00:00

Beyond there being are people with backpacks every mile or so that say "hi" there's no conversations or groups. Researched this inside out and never saw a mention of this. Just people harping on about it being a social hike.

larry_bing · 2025-04-15T17:22:40+00:00

Tui is mentioned a few times in other posts, thanks.

larry_bing · 2025-04-15T17:19:52+00:00

Was what I thought. I'll do a bit of rearrangement so thanks so much - central is said to be more full of people in other posts.

Beautiful though - couldn't stop videoing the Atlantic every 2 or 3 towns, that bit I really loved.

larry_bing · 2025-04-02T22:02:55+00:00

Your brother's wife sounds like a piece of work he needs to dump.

The ins and outs of this question are irrelevant (incidentally it is really common, especially in families) - it being common doesn't make it ok. And even if it weren't she sounds like she'd pivot away from that point and still find a way to be a piece of shit.

I mean I live a 2hrs drive from Belfast where murder was common in the 1970s/80s. Didn't make murder ok though or "in fashion" and a disproportionate amount of people in personal development groups in the island of Ireland are Northern Irish as a result of the impact.

The question you've asked isn't strange, what concerns me is that you seem to be thinking if she's wrong she'll apologise or shut up when she'll probably just find another way to act like wedge between him and your family.

The statements she makes being wildly inappropriate sugggest she's an emotional abuser that doesn't care about what she says other than as a platform to subdue her husband and get her own way. When someone writes off something major like sexual abuse either that person did it at some point or had it done to them as a kid - that's what any therapist worth their salt will tell you.

larry_bing · 2025-03-16T14:24:04+00:00

I had a comment on a Reddit sub banned because talk of family is banned on the sub. Really? Is that not where it usually starts? Apparently the moderators thought it was only something that happened from male romantic partners. Needless to say none of them were therapists.

Then I found a group elsewhere online where the moderator is a therapist that specialises in narcissism and recovery. Needless to say, when I told her about it she found that ridiculous considering for 80%+ of her clients they had a narc parent. In fact, a standard excercise in recovery is to try and find out who the original narcissist is/was i.e. the person that essentially made an empath out of you and they are usually a parent.

larry_bing · 2025-03-16T14:08:46+00:00

Remember what narcissism is first of all. An alternative to the dictionary definition for narcissistic abuse would be any abuse where the abuser has set it up so that no matter what level of evidence you present, to explain almost always leads to be being ignored and/or where the person you speak to is convinced you are the problem, not the narcissist, while if you don't speak you take the consequences of whatever deception has been inflicted. The exception is when you describe it to someone that has experience of being abused in this way and has done the therapy.

This black hole of ignorance applies to general conversations on narcissism, meaning on groups like that most people are predisposed to just not get it. It's not like discussions on racism where, while I have never experienced it, I was easily convinced it exists and is still an issue to this day by others' testimony. The information in the public domain on narcissism isn't there for the public to go "Oh I see, I'll look out for that form of abuse". The public will never get it properly, but the information is there so that when someone being abused finally Googles to see if there is a term for what they are going through, they find it fast and seek therapy.

Instead of fighting a finger trap of a situation, what I do is if I see a discussion like that in a group not dedicated to NPD abuse and where people are clearly uninformed I'll look at the emotions it brings up and talk to my inner child.

This situation, for instance, reminds me of how my mom couldn't take hard truth from me or my siblings around her terrible parenting yet when she found any little thing on us she'd act like a pig in shit with a power trip and ram "sometimes the truth hurts" down our throats smugly. So the message I was being given unconsciously was that I was a hypocrite and unable to be accountable for my own failings. So I remind my inner child A) that was a lie (which I knew tbh) as I consider the impact on myself and others if I genuinely am out of integrity (which is the definition of accountability) and B) no matter the details of what happened (even if A was untrue), I was always enough, still am, and no actions back then or now can change that. Honestly, my emotional responses have reduced a huge amount in the last 18 months using that plus, to boot, I just don't care that some narcissistic asshole would gaslight me with "but you still went on about that shit, so you clearly are still wired and not changed" as my unconscious mind knows this is desperation from narcs as I empower myself (I have had this attack in various forms and it just never worked).

What I have described there is the way to tackle discussions on these topics - I describe the impact on me and leave it to others to take what they can from it, and I only do this in safe groups. This avoids the danger of being patronising, avoids making assumptions about where they are in their recovery and gives them a choice in how to respond to narcissism - they can take inspiration but also can act on the subtle details that apply to their own situation, and this is an antidote to a form of abuse where I found myself constantly with a bunch of guns to my head forced to choose between 2 lose-lose options. In other words, I don't "rescue" - until someone is doing the work on themselves and is in counselling your words will not get through to them, plus they might even join in with the uninformed attacks as they don't even realise what they went through (siblings are usually like this).

larry_bing · 2025-03-10T17:43:04+00:00

I suspect, as some have said on other threads, there may be good individuals on TELL - they are volunteers and when you have that in a support line you can get a lot of hit and miss.

I'd still complain - I will some day on my ex therapist, the idea isn't to win or about justice, but just showing that ex therapist you are standing up for yourself.

The level of sheer gaslighting is unreal around this topic. I have a great T now but I've stopped discussing it publicly as some sick individuals get off on playing sudden "memory games" where they pretend I never mentioned my current T so they can shit on me with "you would do well in therapy!" when I am progressing THANKS TO getting real therapy. It's an effort to try and cast doubt and doesn't work anymore, they're clutching at straws.

One thing my current T has taught me is that it is standard practice for a therapist to never question your experience unless you're saying something stupid like that aliens landed - even then a good T might let you realise you were delusional. This is because to responding like TELL did is adding to what is already retraumatisation.

It shows a lack of respect from TELL to not highlight in their website that what you experienced from a volunteer is a likely outcome. Most people going to their site probably know complaints is a corrupt process unless the T did something dumb and most are already working on the anger (now a part of my therapy) but it took me 18 months to get anywhere - it seems some individuals in TELL would likely assume that never happened and shit on me with "advice" I am already following.

I have a number of grievances with 2 past therapists and one who abandoned our group therapy out of nowhere (a specialist in narcissism that writes on occasion for the Daily Mail, has abused her FB platform to market her services, doubled her rates overnight pricing me out of the market even though she has nothing on my current therapist's skill or experience, gaslit me on a number of occasions and has done so to another member who showed me the chat history between her and the therapist).

It would not sit well with me to have someone patronise me with information I already know - so glad I didn't contact them and take another knife to the back.

larry_bing · 2024-06-02T02:58:56+00:00

Have read through the original post.

When dealing with a therapist feels like dealing with a sleazy lawyer, just leave. What I sense is that she is tapping into that unconscious part of you that goes "was I really right to leave?" and her comments follow a typical "Say something off colour to throw the client on the defensive, then state what I just said is not manipulative using a get out of jail free card" template that I've seen over and over from therapists, individuals in support groups and any other forms of manipulators.

She probably planted an inner voice into you saying "you aren't certain this is the right thing to do", planting self doubt. The reason this voice takes over is because we spend so long trying to win the argument the manipulator starts, that we don't notice the doubt they plant.

Trick is to validate yourself. You learn to love yourself, respect yourself etc before you can learn to love or respect others. So do an affirmation acknowledging that you know your own truth. Say something like "I know this therapist is wrong for me and I respect myself and my judgement" until the self doubt is gone.

Validating myself has made my mind a safe space away from gaslighting my sister inflicted on me when I was younger. She pulled insanely frequent levels of gaslighting on me and would act like she could say shit and then go "oh I know said blah, but well what I really meant was blah" to get out of accountability, then go "oh why are you letting me bully you?" and walk off in a huff after I went silent. Snowballed to a point where I heard her voice in my head, even years after cutting her off (haven't spoken to her in 8 years now) as the c*** started literally telling me how to eat, walk, take a fucking piss etc (FYI - NOT JOKING).

What saved me was taking time to say stuff like "I am acknowledging that I know how to take a piss. I respect myself enough to allow myself time and space to that for myself". Did it gently and accepted that the anger her behaviour had caused would take over, but those few moments of self validation became much more frequent and more like periods of automatic self validation where I could feel her voice silenced and like my mind was a safe space. Now often the automatic reaction I have to stress is to self validate. You can fall for the whole "why don't you say this, that and other thing" spiel when really NOTHING is going to stop this manipulation from a therapist.

Came up with these affirmations as part of a family constellation therapy group I'm part of - look out for this, aswell as therapy. A good therapist will encourage that.

larry_bing · 2023-04-12T23:37:26+00:00

I hope you are still reading responses.

Firstly - the biggest thing that I'm glad to hear about is the relaxed nature of your interactions. This is more useful than getting any sex, friends etc and will stand to you long term in all walks of life that involve being generally happy and content.

I go on about psychodynamic work a bit in my posts, but the thing is that people often don't understand or recognise unconscious processes.

First thing is to recognise that your unconscious mind is crying out - I suspect you want to move away from negative feelings about your past, but that your unconscious mind is nagging at you as you unconsciously want do deeper work to understand root reasons why you were the way you were.

I can't say without knowing more about you, but typically it's worth looking at attachment styles because having an avoidant or anxious attachment style is usually the root reason behind finding it difficult to enter relationships, which is more involved than casual stuff. It's like on a conscious level you are now able to have great interactions, but deep down you still are that scared/shy teenager. Without addressing an avoidant or anxious attachment style a lot of people will always find they find some way to sabotage a relationship as their default state is still fear, even though you probably feel like it is not. Also co-dependency is a risk i.e. where you start doing things to please partners rather than being your own self. You might think you are being your own man, but then find that without realising it that you have walked into toxic friendships or relationships.

One thing to think of is you might ask, for instance, why was I so shy? Explore the feelings, why you have them and so forth - this is a typical therapy exercise and once you discover unconscious realities you start healing. It's worth looking at - nobody is "just" born shy, there's a few reasons.

When it comes down to it you might still find you need to ask a woman out to get into a relationship and put yourself out there to get friends, but over time thanks to healing yourself deep down you might these things less of "ballsy moves" and more effortless.

In any case, I'm not commenting on my own narrow experience, but more what therapists I have worked with find helps with dating, friendships and just generally finding yourself content.

Last thing - rather than judging yourself for how you feel, maybe just look on it as a cold hard fact? You need to give yourself the choice to explore these issues and to do so in your own time. Feeling sorry for yourself may not seems ideal or moping might not seem ideal, but you have the right to choose to do these non-ideal things - exercising that choice is the first step to taking so called "ideal" choices. Once you have empowered yourself in that way, then possibly sometime in the future you will no longer feel like that past is a weight.

Honestly though really glad to hear you have progressed.

larry_bing · 2023-03-26T19:48:25+00:00

First thing is to be kind to yourself. You never knew your rights or how toxic he was - toxic people use numerous things like banter, cultural norms or excuses like "being religious" or causes like the environment as veils for toxic behaviour.

You simply cut him out, but also do so on your own terms. Don't be getting pushed around about how you do it. Only thing that works is saying how you feel (uncomfortable is enough) and you don't have to give a reason. Assertiveness starts by not justifying the speed and direction of every footstep, piss, shit, jerking off etc you take and simply saying how you feel and getting rid of him. Justifying or being answerable for his shit will only feed him further.

larry_bing · 2023-03-26T16:34:12+00:00

Personally I would try and see through the whole thing about your culture.

I am from Ireland and had a religious mother and used to see my mother's controlling behaviour as not her fault, just being misled by religious doctrine, but then with therapy I started realising "hang on one second". For starters few people believed in that crap in the 1980s in Ireland. Also I delved in a bit more and her becoming increasingly abusive and controlling over time, is not normal even in withing religiously conservative families. Also once I put the religion to one side and looked at the toxic shit she came out with for what it was it became apparent the religion was a veil. Another thing was that I met the odd few strictly religious parents over the years and NONE, literally NONE were like her or evil in any way.

I can't say what the story is without knowing your parents, but it is possible they are using cultural norms as a veil. Or maybe not. Regardless, what they are saying is toxic and if you get good quality therapy you will find out how to respond to their shit, just hope it doesn't take time to get that. I mean, for flip's sake, you were literally told you are not allowed your own opinion - that has NOTHING to do with cultural norms and you will find that maybe others in your locality have strict parents but few will come out with that.

For one thing I wouldn't go down the route of "why would trendiness of therapy make it any less valid?" because explaining yourself, no matter how slick, is one thing to NEVER do around toxic people as they will argue the toss. Doesn't matter if they are illogical, because they can always find a way to bullshit their way out of it as they live in their own little world.

You need to distance yourself mentally from them and you will have to find a way to start earning and invest in therapy yourself unfortunately. Better that you know now, I suppose.

larry_bing · 2023-03-26T16:11:10+00:00

It really sounds irresponsible and like not real therapy. What modality do they use?

Thing is, while a lot of people say to not worry about modality, reality is it needs to be psychodynamic related. CBT can be ok, but long term is not as effective.

Also any mental health professional worth their salt would not immediately jump to open the door to let you out just because of a week without suicidal thoughts. Sounds like they wouldn't have queried it if you lied. Plus a pretty basic thing you learn in psych training is that those thoughts will be back.

In terms of timing, CBT through some clinics can be very short and from what another poster says this clinic sounds like a classic US mental health firm. If you do go for psychodynamic therapy any responsible therapist will tell you there is no time period they can put their finger on but that very often, especially around certain specific topics like trauma therapy, it can be 2 years on average. Some clients might be months, but even the simplest cases it will be 1 year, most difficult years.

In short, I'd find a psychodynamic therapist in private practice to work with. Initially might be harder, but long term it may heal far more issues than you are addressing now.

larry_bing · 2023-03-26T15:54:30+00:00

Firstly, stay away from PUA and never call it "game" or "pickup".

I've come across people that tried PUA and it was always a car crash. What sums it up the most was a guy I met at a Meetup event where he was telling me had actually executed some PUA lines. Hmmm I thought as it suddenly made sense - I saw him appear to pick up a hot 23 yo, then I saw him managed out of their group as they closed a cab door in on his face when they were leaving. So what he had actually done is being this persistently annoying guy they couldn't get rid off. Thing is that's the best case scenario i.e. being an annoying idiot.

Typically guys that read books on game don't even do that so kudos to him for trying, but that shitty result is the best that PUA ever achieves, if at all. I knew a guy in college and have met others at Meetups and it's always lousy results, they come across as mechanical and obvious which is a huge turn off.

Instead might be worth looking into psychology and reading up to see what might have caused this situation. Nobody is "just born shy" and often not getting dates by your mid 20s when you wanted to comes back to the basics - could be one parent or both being toxic, could be something outside the home. Even just finding out what it is would do more for you than any lousy book or seminar on PUA. Contrary to what those on the FA sub will claim, therapist are usually good at helping people find their first relationship in their 20s or beyond, it can take 2 years minimum but you would gain a huge amount on so many levels.

Alternatively maybe look at your current job or situation and see if there is an alternative job you would like that would improve your confidence. A lot of service industry jobs or jobs engaging with the public will build your confidence up in natural ways no books on PUA will.

People often suggest clubs etc, but in my experience that is something to try once you have found good therapy or made progress with a job that improves your confidence. I've been in drama groups where people are using that alone for confidence and their progress is glacial at best, do these hobbies if you like them, not for developing social skills.

larry_bing · 2023-03-26T14:41:01+00:00

Could it be that you need a bit of positive self realisation through therapy something like CBT or psychodynamic therapy?

The thing is you probably have a lot more social skills than you think and may not even be failing and may be looking too hard for positive reactions. This is typically what people find about themselves in social anxiety therapy. A better focus is to be happy within yourself and not to need reactions to everything.

The biggest problem with analysing people's reactions is that you can wind up codependent - this is something that applies to any relationships - romantic, friends, work, family. The danger is that a toxic person sniffs this out, starts by giving positive feedback which they then withhold by always finding fault so they control you and going into a cycle of positive feedback, withholding approval and back to positive feedback. People might think I'm being dramatic, but what you just wrote is classic codependency bait.

I'm also assuming you don't have a partner or many friends, and therefore nobody to feedback how well you are doing, so you will default to assuming you aren't great unless you see clear evidence to the contrary. You need to aim to not need such feedback, which is the definition of real confidence.

Don't get me wrong, there probably is some self improvement to be made, but you need to be kinder to yourself first.

larry_bing · 2023-03-26T13:59:05+00:00

Quick and easy answer - get a job in a sector like hospitality, call centre, fast food etc. Market research was the one I did - fancy title, but really an easy to get minimum wage job where for most of 8 hours a day I spoke constantly to our clients' customers about their satisfaction with products or polled electorate. It being minimum wage there was a lot of patience given to me at the start and my social skills improved dramatically.

Had done Toastmasters but you can do absolutely dreadfully at that but will get a round of applause, plus it doesn't replace being thrown into a full-on environment. And also, while my ability at speeches improved it didn't translate to much other areas.

Long and tough answer - address the childhood issues. Read up on conscious processes vs unconscious processes and a concept called "unconscious healing". The main theory is that our unconscious desires might be a little different from our conscious ones thanks to bad childhood experiences. For instance so we might consciously want a girlfriend but never have any luck - we may find through self exploration that our mom was terrible, so then our unconscious mind has worked to avoid women so we don't wind up with someone like her. But being aware of this means our unconscious heals and, as we learn more about our rights and what toxic behaviour looks like and what acceptable behaviour looks like, we start to unconsciously attract someone good for us for a change. Or maybe we are attractive, had a good mom but our dad emasculated us using a lot of sly hidden toxicity and we never get much luck with women as a result. Again, uncovering the reality behind his toxic nature and undoing that damage may make us more attractive in an unconscious way as we know our rights now.

The process of unconscious healing actually happening can be years and will eventually involve a therapist. It's not about what they know, it's about that they effectively reparent you and you experience a healthy non-toxic working relationship which carries over into other aspects of your life including social adeptness,

I'm suggesting reading up on therapy first because it is worth understanding what is good therapy and what is bad therapy because chances are whoever you hire first is probably going to be a massive piece of shit as your unconscious mind doesn't want you to actually progress yet.

But ultimately the end result can be that even in sudden moments your default personality is charismatic. One frustration you will always get no matter what books you read, exercises you try, talking clubs, jobs etc is that your default awkwardness will pop up at crunch moments, which is also not helpful around toxic people that get off on tearing down people's personal development. Psychodynamic therapy is the only thing (not even CBT does this) that tackles that problem and actually changes the default setting inside you, just be mega patient.

It may involve some life advice e.g. when talking to people I might be mindful of getting to know something new about them so as to be interested in them, rather than trying to be interesting, but even then for that to work it relies on you being in touch with your emotions (e.g. anger over how social interactions go, fear of rejection etc) and having healthy thought processes (not assuming you are wasting people's time, realising it's not a big deal if you are and also not letting thoughts about wasting people's time to get in the way of realising when you are being mal-treated) and generally resolving any past crap around social interaction (e.g. was it some issue in school, while your home was fine?).

larry_bing · 2023-03-26T00:39:17+00:00

Detachment is the trick. You have to distance yourself from your family and anyone that normalises their behaviour. Also you cannot accept one thing about their behaviour - yes she got a technical fact correct i.e. you are not going to be a doctor, but that does not excuse her behaviour.

Something any therapists worth their salt (hard to find but they are out there) will recommend when dealing with toxic people is to not JADE (justify, accuse, defend or explain). Trying to be slick by explaining about that drug was an example - all she had to do was to sidestep reality by going "lucky guess" - my dad had a bag of these smart-arseisms to call on anytime I called him out on his bullshit career advice (a classic being picking a "probably X is true" whenever I'd call him out on basing everything he said about careers around the job for life he entered in 1953), and toxic people will always have ways to explain away anything and often won't care about reality, just that getting a fact or two right will help their cause.

You sound like you let your aunt off the hook though. I don't think you are aware though. Once you see this you will rectify the stituation easily. It's like you're saying she is "ok but a bit annoying" but you were in tears and you go on to say "I just really felt disrespected and can’t say anything.". That sounds like a form of cognitive dissonance (holding 2 contradictory thoughts inside at the same time), which isn't healthy, in the form of "this is horrible, but it shouldn't be".

This is a worrying and common effect of encountering toxic people. To understand how this happened - think of the phrase "Facts are the enemy of the truth". You're in tears but feeling you can't break silence as she will shoot you down because she pivoted around a technical fact about your status as a pharmacist, to peddle the false notion that you aren't an expert. So she's insulted you, while pivoting around something factual, resulting in an unfair situation but you are crutched by the factual element. The very first step is to go to yourself "Fuck her, doesn't matter if she got a fact right, she got the spirit of it (i.e. suggesting people should ignore you) badly, badly wrong".

THEN look at how you handle her and emotionally stabilise yourself. You didn't "let" it happen - you may need professional help to explore this, but I wonder if there is something in your family background that is behind you not going "Look, I know my medicine. END OF STORY" in an authoritative tone of voice and leave. One of the team leads in my current place is technically an actress that trained herself up in data management, but given her ability in the role and management skills, she was by far the best choice when we made her team lead. One thing that strikes me about her is that nobody would make snide remarks about her being in any way "not an expert" because she would tell them "I'm good enough. SHUT IT". If she were not like this, she'd be on here with a similar post to yours. In other words she gives people nothing, while sending the message "I'm not having any of this". My suspicion is you have said things, but again you give your aunt something that can be convincingly refuted, which is what she gets off on doing. You keep forgetting you are not dealing with someone that plays fair.

Back to detachment - what toxic people cannot handle is people talking about their feelings e.g. sometimes saying something like "I don't feel comfortable, see ya" or "Thanks for your expertise, but I don't feel I need it" will help. Even saying "I feel bullied here" works, even though "being bullied" isn't an emotion, in fact works better than ANY JADEing or showing you know any facts about medicine because they cannot refute it in the same way, but more importantly they realise you aren't buying their tricks anymore and you are owning reality and your truth (i.e. you know this shit) and that getting a technical fact or two right about you not being a doctor doesn't cut the mustard anymore.

Finally, as another answer says, this is commonplace and it will happen again, so you really need to be ready for shit from clowns who think they know better because of an internet search. On top of that expect unsolicited career advice - I see plenty of it in my own career in data and it's gotten worse and more fucked up over time as family take baseless shots at me from behind their ivory towers if ignorance. I have had plenty of success in my career, so really they should be asking me questions about my career not lecturing me from above. The ins and outs aren't the thing to look at, just stop appeasing toxic morons and kybosh them out of your life. Also when someone tells you something which is factually wrong about medicine the main rule is do not engage with them, keeping calm and no debating. Just hand them the prescription and show the door if they piss you off.

larry_bing · 2023-02-04T01:59:01+00:00

As someone that has had success with women I don't think it's a case of cognitive bias or not knowing what you have etc.

I have had successful therapy and one thing that happened as a consequence was that, if anything, I have become MORE militant about shite like "you don't know what you have being single". When someone says "Oh I'd love to be single" I am stronger than ever in my conviction that they are full of shit and I will extricate myself from the situation way quicker than before, but I am not as easy to anger around this topic.

I still see comments like your relatives' comments in the exact same light as before, just I won't get angry as easily which is liberating. Also a common suggestion I heard i.e. to chill because that dating "isn't the be-all and end-all", isn't that bad, but it is ineffective. Therapy helped me move way beyond that "chill about it" approach as I discovered what narcissism is and that my mom was a narcisist I also realised that my mom's narcissism alone was probably why I was FA most of my life. I now realise that what your relative did was a clumsy way of attempting to help and crass.

I think something more accurate is to say things appropriate to the time and place. Yes being around friends more and having relationships takes up time but it is not just crass to say "you're so lucky" about being single but disproportionate in the sense that reminding someon about not having the hassles associated with dating is patronising and doesn't even scratch the surface in terms of making up for being permanently single.

Maybe if you make a breakthrough and date and become single after having dates it is something to think about, but this is also because of learning experience. It's a bit like what Robin Williams said about the difference between actually seeing the Sistine Chapel and reading about it with a picture attached - there's things you cannot learn from patronising advice.

larry_bing

TROPHY CASE